• [echoirlp] Can EchoIRLP support conferencing?

    From stevenvk2stg@gmail.com@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 15:01:51 2021
    Hi everyone,
    I'm very new to EchoIRLP, however a small group including myself have installed
    it on the local repeaters PiIRLP node, and it's working perfectly.
    Except that we had hoped to run it in conference mode, so a number of single user nodes could connect for nets, etc.
    The following quote is from the user manual:
    "Do not change MaxConferenceClients = 2: This tbd.conf setting
    controls how many Echolink users are allowed to connect. One client is
    your IRLP node which leaves one for an Echolink connection. Do Not
    change this or EchoIRLP won’t work properly and may not start at all."
    Does this mean that only one user is ever allowed to connect at a time?
    Sorry if this is a question covered somewhere else...
    Steven VK2STG


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  • From Ed W6YJ@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 15:31:59 2021
    Steven,

    It is not a software limitation, but an edict from the EchoLink
    management team.

    EchoLink now requires a $40 per year payment to operate a conference.
    See the last bullet point on the page below:

    https://secure.echolink.org/conf.htm

    If they determine your installation of The Bridge (tbd) is configured
    for mre than two connections, it will be banned.

    Ed
    W6YJ


    On 4/29/2021 3:01 PM, stevenvk2stg@gmail.com wrote:
    Hi everyone,
    I'm very new to EchoIRLP, however a small group including myself have
    installed it on the local repeaters PiIRLP node, and it's working perfectly.
    Except that we had hoped to run it in conference mode, so a number of single
    user nodes could connect for nets, etc.
    The following quote is from the user manual:
    "Do not change MaxConferenceClients = 2: This tbd.conf setting
    controls how many Echolink users are allowed to connect. One client is
    your IRLP node which leaves one for an Echolink connection. Do Not
    change this or EchoIRLP won’t work properly and may not start at all."
    Does this mean that only one user is ever allowed to connect at a time?
    Sorry if this is a question covered somewhere else...
    Steven VK2STG







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  • From Paul Caccamo@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 18:23:54 2021
    Steven; the best way to achieve this would be to get permission from an
    iRLP conference node owner, and then connect all your end points into
    that conference node. Conf nodes are set up with sufficient bandwidth to handle
    the audio streams. Perhaps someone else can hop in here with other options.

    73 Paul, VA3PC  (VE3ERX/R Node 2649)

    On 2021-04-29 18:01, stevenvk2stg@gmail.com wrote:
    Hi everyone,
    I'm very new to EchoIRLP, however a small group including myself have
    installed it on the local repeaters PiIRLP node, and it's working perfectly.
    Except that we had hoped to run it in conference mode, so a number of single
    user nodes could connect for nets, etc.
    The following quote is from the user manual:
    "Do not change MaxConferenceClients = 2: This tbd.conf setting
    controls how many Echolink users are allowed to connect. One client is
    your IRLP node which leaves one for an Echolink connection. Do Not
    change this or EchoIRLP won’t work properly and may not start at all."
    Does this mean that only one user is ever allowed to connect at a time?
    Sorry if this is a question covered somewhere else...
    Steven VK2STG







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  • From stevenvk2stg@gmail.com@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 15:39:32 2021
    Hi, thanks Ed and Paul,
    That explains it - just so I'm clear, if our club decided to set up a conference (and pay the $40), would it work with EchoIRLP? Or would we have to run a separate system using the Windows application?
    Thanks very much for your quick replies,
    Steven VK2STG


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  • From stevenvk2stg@gmail.com@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 15:42:02 2021
    Oops! I forgot to say that Paul's suggestion does sound like the way to go. But
    my last question is mostly just so that I've got full info to pass on the other club members.
    Steven


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  • From David McAnally@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 18:10:17 2021
    As others have noted, EchoLink administration limits theBridge (tbd) conferencing to paid conferences. EchoIRLP uses tbd, so if EchoLink
    servers detect more than 2 connections, they may delist your EchoLink node.

    Another issue you "may" encounter with the Raspberry PI is the ability of
    the PI to carry the load of multiple connections. I do not know the
    connection limit of a Raspberry PI running EchoIRLP, but I know it has one.

    Alternatives include requesting your own EchoLink conference , and setting
    up a conference server using Windows PC Echolink or theBridge software.

    You may also want to investigate setting up an experimental IRLP node. See < http://experimental.irlp.net> and scroll down below the list of nodes to
    view some additional information. Many IRLP owners have set up experimental nodes. One benefit of an experimental IRLP node is you can set it up to
    allow cross connecting IRLP and EchoLink nodes. Some of us use theLinkbox (tlb), an enhanced version of theBridge software, on a VPS system to do
    this. Even Allstar nodes are being connected to experimental IRLP nodes.

    Regards,
    David M.
    WD5M


    On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 5:08 PM <stevenvk2stg@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi everyone,
    I'm very new to EchoIRLP, however a small group including myself have installed it on the local repeaters PiIRLP node, and it's working perfectly. Except that we had hoped to run it in conference mode, so a number of
    single user nodes could connect for nets, etc.
    The following quote is from the user manual:
    "Do not change MaxConferenceClients = 2: This tbd.conf setting
    controls how many Echolink users are allowed to connect. One client is
    your IRLP node which leaves one for an Echolink connection. Do Not
    change this or EchoIRLP won’t work properly and may not start at all."
    Does this mean that only one user is ever allowed to connect at a time?
    Sorry if this is a question covered somewhere else...
    Steven VK2STG








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  • From Jonathan Taylor@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 16:23:25 2021
    I don't know where this information is coming from, but it's either inaccurate or out of date.

    There is no limitation as far as EchoLink is concerned to operating an EchoIRLP
    node in a mode that allows conferencing. The only stipulation is that is be a
    true gateway to RF (-L or -R callsign suffix).

    The conference validation procedure applies only to nodes with conference callsigns (like *CONF*) which are not RF gateways, and those must be run using the standard tbd distribution rather than EchoIRLP.


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  • From stevenvk2stg@gmail.com@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 16:56:42 2021
    Ok, so if I change the maxconferenceclients setting mentioned in my first post,
    is our Pi likely to roll up into a ball, never to work again, (hi) or is the only possible problem with Echolink maybe refusing the connection? Sorry, I'm just trying to get my head around the different options, and don't mind experimenting!


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  • From David McAnally@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 19:08:22 2021
    Jonathan,

    Thank you for responding to this thread. This connection limit with
    EchoIRLP's use of theBridge has been around for many years. I suspect it
    may have had some truth to it at some point in the past. I know everyone appreciates you setting the record straight.

    I encourage anyone who needs more EchoLink connections on EchoIRlP to
    increase the size for MaxConferenceClients in tbd.conf.

    In case you don't know Jonathan Taylor (K1RFD), please look for his name at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EchoLink> and the EchoLink documentation at < http://echolink.org/>.

    Regards,
    David M.
    WD5M


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  • From Steve Jones@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Fri Apr 30 10:12:40 2021
    Depends on the PI model... The 3B does not have a true Gb network port and from
    memory it tops out at 300Mb. The PI4 has a true Gb interface and would survive better. The 3B may also run low on memory which will limit connections. Best option would be to play with it and see what the physical limit is.

    Steve VK2YLD
    Node 6732


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    Sent: Friday, 30 April 2021 9:57 AM
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    Subject: Re: [echoirlp] Can EchoIRLP support conferencing?

    Ok, so if I change the maxconferenceclients setting mentioned in my first post,
    is our Pi likely to roll up into a ball, never to work again, (hi) or is the only possible problem with Echolink maybe refusing the connection? Sorry, I'm just trying to get my head around the different options, and don't mind experimenting!







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  • From Jonathan Taylor@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 18:57:55 2021
    Keep in mind that each EchoLink connection consumes only about 15 kbps bandwidth, so even a 100-connection conference would use about 1.5 megabits upstream.

    I don't know the specific amount of memory consumption for each additional node
    in the conference in tbd, but it's probably less than a kilobyte, so a 100-node conference would consume 100kB additional memory -- one tenth of a megabyte.


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  • From Tony Langdon@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Fri Apr 30 12:31:27 2021
    On 30/4/21 9:23 am, Jonathan Taylor wrote:
    I don't know where this information is coming from, but it's either
    inaccurate or out of date.

    There is no limitation as far as EchoLink is concerned to operating an
    EchoIRLP node in a mode that allows conferencing. The only stipulation is that
    is be a true gateway to RF (-L or -R callsign suffix).

    The conference validation procedure applies only to nodes with conference
    callsigns (like *CONF*) which are not RF gateways, and those must be run using the standard tbd distribution rather than EchoIRLP.

    You are correct Jonathan, but the EchoIRLP issue is a subtly different
    one, and it's really a side effect of enforcement of other Echolink
    policies.

    Echolink (quite rightly) doesn't allow -L or -R callsigns to be used as conferences without RF.  It is this policy that EchoIRLP nodes are
    collateral damage of.  When tbd has more than 2 connections, it
    identifies as a conference server to the Echolink network, and is
    blocked from logging in with it's -L or -R callsign, despite the fact
    that the EchoIRLP node (by definition and policy!) has an RF interface.

    So, EchoIRLP nodes aren't targeted, but existing policy prevents them participating on Echolink in "local conference" mode.

    --
    73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
    http://vkradio.com



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  • From Jonathan Taylor@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Thu Apr 29 19:42:22 2021
    Hi Tony.

    That sounds like it may be a bug.
    Are you saying that EchoIRLP changes its version number identifier during login, when conferencing is enabled?


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  • From Tony Langdon@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Fri Apr 30 15:35:50 2021
    On 30/4/21 12:42 pm, Jonathan Taylor wrote:
    Hi Tony.

    That sounds like it may be a bug.
    Are you saying that EchoIRLP changes its version number identifier during
    login, when conferencing is enabled?
    You would have to ask Skip what he did to work around the policy,
    because initially, there was a brief period where EchoIRLP wouldn't work
    at all, because tbd was ALWAYS identified as a conference, so I believe
    there was a change made so it would report a different version when
    running on an EchoIRLP node, but in practice, that change only allowed a
    node with a single link to work.

    I think that also a specific configuration of the Speak Freely ports
    (only used with EchoIRLP) may be needed as well to make it look like an EchoIRLP node, but not 100% sure on that.  This particular configuration
    is only useful for that purpose.  But I do recall it was all a
    workaround to enable some level of EchoIRLP functionality at all, while complying with the Echolink policies.

    --
    73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
    http://vkradio.com



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  • From David McAnally@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Fri Apr 30 05:48:52 2021
    Interesting, a quick cursory scan of the tbd source found these comments
    below in tbd dirclient.c. We might ask Skip what he remembers. It's been a long time though. Eighteen years? I'm glad Tony remembers so much! I'll
    scan the source later to see what it actually reports to the directory
    servers.

    It would seem that EchoLink servers would consider the type of user
    connection, e.g. *conferencename* in determining if the connection is in
    fact a conference. Since other EchoLink clients are allowed multiple connections, I agree that tbd should work that way too.

    Revision 1.17 2004/11/27 22:09:26 wb6ymh
    1. Modified version reporting to use bEchoIrlpMode flag.
    Revision 1.16 2004/11/22 00:52:56 wb6ymh
    1. Detect EchoIRLP by SF_Port != SF_ReplyPort instead of SF_ReplyPort !=
    SF_AUDIO_PORT. Allows conferences to use nonstandard ports without
    triggering an EchoIRLP version string.
    Revision 1.15 2004/05/29 17:25:22 wb6ymh
    ...
    3. Changed version string sent to EchoLink directory servers from v.vvB to
    v.vvI when tbd is used with the EchoIRLP project.


    David M.
    WD5M

    On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 12:35 AM Tony Langdon <vk3jed@vkradio.com> wrote:

    On 30/4/21 12:42 pm, Jonathan Taylor wrote:
    Hi Tony.

    That sounds like it may be a bug.
    Are you saying that EchoIRLP changes its version number identifier
    during login, when conferencing is enabled?
    You would have to ask Skip what he did to work around the policy,
    because initially, there was a brief period where EchoIRLP wouldn't work
    at all, because tbd was ALWAYS identified as a conference, so I believe
    there was a change made so it would report a different version when
    running on an EchoIRLP node, but in practice, that change only allowed a
    node with a single link to work.

    I think that also a specific configuration of the Speak Freely ports
    (only used with EchoIRLP) may be needed as well to make it look like an EchoIRLP node, but not 100% sure on that. This particular configuration
    is only useful for that purpose. But I do recall it was all a
    workaround to enable some level of EchoIRLP functionality at all, while complying with the Echolink policies.

    --
    73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
    http://vkradio.com









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  • From Jonathan Taylor@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Fri Apr 30 05:18:13 2021
    It looks like there is a flag in configvars.c called bEchoIrlpMode, which is set only according to the condition that SF_Port != SF_ReplyPort in the configuration, which is presumably the case (only) in an EchoIRLP installation.
    I don't see it depending on any other condition, such as conferencing being enabled.

    Has anyone tested this recently?


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  • From Tony Langdon@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Fri Apr 30 22:45:25 2021
    On 30/4/21 10:18 pm, Jonathan Taylor wrote:
    It looks like there is a flag in configvars.c called bEchoIrlpMode, which is
    set only according to the condition that SF_Port != SF_ReplyPort in the configuration, which is presumably the case (only) in an EchoIRLP installation.
    I don't see it depending on any other condition, such as conferencing being enabled.
    That's what I recall Skip intending the condition to be, but for some
    reason, people have reported login failures, when MaxClients > 2,
    IIRC.    Will need some testing with packet sniffing to see what tbd is telling the servers under various test conditions.  2 is a special
    number, because that's the number of connections tbd sees, when there's
    a single Echolink client connected.  The second connection is Speak
    Freely to the IRLP binaries.

    --
    73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
    http://vkradio.com



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  • From stevenvk2stg@gmail.com@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Fri Apr 30 16:33:16 2021
    Thanks a lot to everyone here for your answers - and the hard work that must have been put in to make EchoIRLP work!
    A bit of the discussion has gone slightly over my head... but it sounds like for the moment we (the Snowy Mountains Amateur Radio Club) will simply use EchoIRLP as is for the time being. As was mentioned earlier, we could arrange to use a conference node, for nets etc.
    Having said that, if you do find out how to make it work in conference mode, I'd be very pleased!

    Steven VK2STG


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  • From stevenvk2stg@gmail.com@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Mon May 3 19:41:13 2021
    Hi again,
    I've just changed the MaxConferenceClients setting to 6 (thought it wouldn't do
    much harm to try it) and so far it seems to work fine... Conferencing works although I've only tried with 2 echolink connections at a time, so far. We'll see if it keeps working!

    Steven VK2STG - - still fiddling with the VK2RFS-R node.


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  • From Tony Langdon@432:1/101 to echoirlp@groups.io on Tue May 4 12:53:08 2021
    On 4/5/21 12:41 pm, stevenvk2stg@gmail.com wrote:
    Hi again,
    I've just changed the MaxConferenceClients setting to 6 (thought it wouldn't
    do much harm to try it) and so far it seems to work fine... Conferencing works although I've only tried with 2 echolink connections at a time, so far. We'll see if it keeps working!

    Steven VK2STG - - still fiddling with the VK2RFS-R node.


    Interesting, that's contrary to previous experience.  I wonder if
    something's changed on the servers.

    --
    73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
    http://vkradio.com



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