• Lacros

    From Mike Dippel@454:1/393 to All on Thu Aug 10 11:47:16 2023
    The Lacros project an acronym for Linux and Chrome OS, may be a good thing to revive
    my old Chromebook. My wife was unable to bring up bank websites because the old
    version of Chrome wouldn't allow it to display, and Chrome is the only browser available on
    a Chromebook. The laptop would not update Chrome because it was tied to an OS that
    had reached its life cycle and wouldn't update.

    The word is that if your Chromebook is past it's life cycle, this new browser may allow you
    to update your Chromebook because the browser is independent of the OS. There is no
    word yet when it will be released, but the word is that it should come soon.

    I purchased a new Chromebook not knowing this. Maybe I could have waited for the new
    release.

    Mike Dippel

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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Mike Dippel on Fri Aug 11 20:15:00 2023
    Mike Dippel wrote:
    The Lacros project an acronym for Linux and Chrome OS, may be a good thing to revive my old Chromebook. My wife was unable to bring up bank websites because the old version of Chrome wouldn't allow it to display, and Chrome is the only browser available on a Chromebook. The laptop would not update Chrome because it was tied to an OS that had reached its life cycle and wouldn't update.

    Yeah, that was really suck of them to do.

    But linux on Chromebooks has been a thing for a while now. There are a
    bunch of distros that work.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=linux+for+chromebook&ia=web
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Mike Dippel on Fri Aug 11 07:02:00 2023

    Hi Mike!

    The Lacros project an acronym for Linux and Chrome OS, may be a
    good thing to revive my old Chromebook. My wife was unable to
    bring up bank websites because the old version of Chrome wouldn't
    allow it to display, and Chrome is the only browser available on
    a Chromebook. The laptop would not update Chrome because it was
    tied to an OS that had reached its life cycle and wouldn't
    update. The word is that if your Chromebook is past it's life
    cycle, this new browser may allow you to update your Chromebook
    because the browser is independent of the OS. There is no word
    yet when it will be released, but the word is that it should come
    soon. I purchased a new Chromebook not knowing this. Maybe I
    could have waited for the new release.

    Welcome to the world of Linux! <g> It's a 'sneaky' way to update and
    extend the life of old hardware. You can run across instances where
    during installation it wil be necessary to go into the BIOS to turn off
    a setting to allow a different operating system. Obviously you didn't
    need to, just typing in for the benefit of anyone else who may read
    this.

    There are also some hardware limitations: my old Lenovo laptop won't
    install Ubuntu 22.04 but does fine with 20.04. Reason: only has 3 GB of
    memory (RAM). 22.04 wants 4. I did purchase and install a new stick
    (less thab $15) but haven't done the upgrade yet.

    ZDNet recently had an article on some other Linux versions for old
    hardware: https://www.zdnet.com/article/want-to-save-your-aging-computer-try-these -5-linux-distributions/
    I do not have experience with any of these versions. Just sticking the information in here for reference.

    Have fun with your new-and-improved Chromebook! ...The original one! <g>



    BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET



    ... What is the official exercise of #NationalLazyDay? Diddly squats.
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  • From Mike Dippel@454:1/393 to Barry Martin on Sat Aug 12 21:39:40 2023
    On 8/11/2023 7:02 AM, Barry Martin wrote to Mike Dippel:

    Hi Mike!

    The Lacros project an acronym for Linux and Chrome OS, may be a
    good thing to revive my old Chromebook. My wife was unable to
    bring up bank websites because the old version of Chrome wouldn't
    allow it to display, and Chrome is the only browser available on
    a Chromebook. The laptop would not update Chrome because it was
    tied to an OS that had reached its life cycle and wouldn't
    update. The word is that if your Chromebook is past it's life
    cycle, this new browser may allow you to update your Chromebook
    because the browser is independent of the OS. There is no word
    yet when it will be released, but the word is that it should come
    soon. I purchased a new Chromebook not knowing this. Maybe I
    could have waited for the new release.

    Welcome to the world of Linux! <g> It's a 'sneaky' way to update and
    extend the life of old hardware. You can run across instances where
    during installation it wil be necessary to go into the BIOS to turn off
    a setting to allow a different operating system. Obviously you didn't
    need to, just typing in for the benefit of anyone else who may read
    this.

    There are also some hardware limitations: my old Lenovo laptop won't
    install Ubuntu 22.04 but does fine with 20.04. Reason: only has 3 GB of memory (RAM). 22.04 wants 4. I did purchase and install a new stick
    (less than $15) but haven't done the upgrade yet.

    ZDNet recently had an article on some other Linux versions for old
    hardware: https://www.zdnet.com/article/want-to-save-your-aging-computer-try-these -5-linux-distributions/

    Thank you for that information. I will check it out.

    Mike Dippel

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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Sun Aug 13 10:53:00 2023
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Mike!


    ZDNet recently had an article on some other Linux versions for old
    hardware: https://www.zdnet.com/article/want-to-save-your-aging-computer-try-these -5-linux-distributions/
    I do not have experience with any of these versions. Just sticking the information in here for reference.


    The problem with a Chromebook is that it's not a standard laptop, so it
    needs a distro that's known to work with it. And not all of them will.
    But a bunch do.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=linux+for+chromebook&ia=web

    I don't know if a Chromebook does a live boot from USB, but if so,
    that's the way to test out various distros and see which work.


    Anything that starts from Ubuntu, hasn't been thoroughly trimmed, and
    isn't Puppy or Mint, will be too heavy for an older or minimal laptop.

    Bohdi uses modified Enlightenment, which is anything but lightweight.
    I've messed with it some but didn't find it appealing.

    Anything using LXDE/LXQt will be a lot livelier as a desktop. (But JWM
    will run rings around LXDE or any other complete desktop.)

    TinyCore is not usable out of the box. You have to add literally everything.

    Wary Puppy is my go-to data rescue boot. It runs from RAM rather than
    from the HD. When I had it on an ancient laptop it was perfectly fine on
    340mb RAM. It is odd, doesn't feel like linux at all, and I never did
    get wifi to work. It's easy to use and runs well even on a 20 year old
    PC. However... there's not just one Puppy, there are literally hundreds.
    Just a few:

    https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/

    I like JWM as the puppy desktop, tho there are various others available.
    My very favorite was actually one of the Debian Dogs (not-really-Puppy
    but acts-like-Puppy) called MintPup, unfortunately no longer maintained.

    https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Mike Dippel on Sun Aug 13 06:54:00 2023

    Hi Mike!

    The Lacros project an acronym for Linux and Chrome OS, may be a
    good thing to revive my old Chromebook. My wife was unable to

    I forgot to mention: you can test a lot/all of the options with the
    'trial' option: load via USB thumbdrive or CD/DVD. Doens't load
    anything to the computer so no 'residue'.

    Some pointers come to mind: earlier verisons of Ubuntu displayed icons
    of a keyboard and sort of a stick figure. I'll admit it took me a bit
    to figure out it meant "hey human! press a key!". ...Must've read too
    much as a kid and not enough Pictionary.

    Another thing is sometimes appears nothing is going on; be patient.
    Check the HDD light for occasional activity and reassurance things are
    OK. DVD installation was nice because there was a read/write LED that flickered.

    Have fun!



    BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET



    ... Underwear bandit apprehended -- admits brief crime spree.
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Mon Aug 14 07:11:00 2023

    Hi Ky!

    ZDNet recently had an article on some other Linux versions for old
    hardware: https://www.zdnet.com/article/want-to-save-your-aging-computer-try-these -5-linux-distributions/
    I do not have experience with any of these versions. Just sticking the information in here for reference.
    The problem with a Chromebook is that it's not a standard laptop,
    so it needs a distro that's known to work with it. And not all of
    them will. But a bunch do.

    Good information on Chromebook and distribution options -- I'm going to
    add to my information pool. And yes, some computers are highly
    proprietary: good in some ways, bad in others.


    I don't know if a Chromebook does a live boot from USB, but if
    so, that's the way to test out various distros and see which
    work.

    It may but might also need a secret keyboard combination to do so.



    than from the HD. When I had it on an ancient laptop it was
    perfectly fine on 340mb RAM. It is odd, doesn't feel like linux
    at all, and I never did get wifi to work. It's easy to use and
    runs well even on a 20 year old PC. However... there's not just
    one Puppy, there are literally hundreds. Just a few:

    As for the WiFi, possibly needs a driver installed. My HP laptop only
    has 2.4 GHz capabilities so I added a dual-band dongle. For the dongle
    to work it needed to have a driver manually installed. Semi-oddly my
    Lenovo laptop which pre-dated the HP one by probably ten years accepts
    both bands. ...Was going to update the WiFi module in the HP so I didn't
    need to use the dongle (sticks out, potential for damage, loss); found
    one ... something 'odd' about the picture compared to the picture of the original module. Oh! Three antenna terminals! Duh! The upgrade module
    would fit but no 5 GHz antenna to connect to!



    BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET



    ... You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light , then you Energy.
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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Tue Aug 15 11:19:00 2023
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Ky!

    > ZDNet recently had an article on some other Linux versions for old
    > hardware:
    > https://www.zdnet.com/article/want-to-save-your-aging-computer-try-these
    > -5-linux-distributions/
    > I do not have experience with any of these versions. Just sticking the
    > information in here for reference.
    KM> The problem with a Chromebook is that it's not a standard laptop,
    KM> so it needs a distro that's known to work with it. And not all of
    KM> them will. But a bunch do.

    Good information on Chromebook and distribution options -- I'm going to
    add to my information pool. And yes, some computers are highly
    proprietary: good in some ways, bad in others.

    Good only if it's a vertical ecosystem and you don't need anything
    external. This is the Apple model. Bad if you want flexibility. This is everyone else. :)


    KM> I don't know if a Chromebook does a live boot from USB, but if
    KM> so, that's the way to test out various distros and see which
    KM> work.

    It may but might also need a secret keyboard combination to do so.

    One of the links that comes up in the DDG search is Google's on how to
    load linux onto a Chromebook. I suppose such secrets are there revealed. :)



    KM> than from the HD. When I had it on an ancient laptop it was
    KM> perfectly fine on 340mb RAM. It is odd, doesn't feel like linux
    KM> at all, and I never did get wifi to work. It's easy to use and
    KM> runs well even on a 20 year old PC. However... there's not just
    KM> one Puppy, there are literally hundreds. Just a few:

    As for the WiFi, possibly needs a driver installed. My HP laptop only
    has 2.4 GHz capabilities so I added a dual-band dongle. For the dongle
    to work it needed to have a driver manually installed. Semi-oddly my

    To be more accurate, Wifi worked ONCE. Then never worked again. It would
    go through the motions but nothing happened.

    If there's no driver, the usual linux thing is the device simply isn't available. It won't show up at all. This thought it was there.

    Lenovo laptop which pre-dated the HP one by probably ten years accepts
    both bands. ...Was going to update the WiFi module in the HP so I didn't need to use the dongle (sticks out, potential for damage, loss); found

    You can get little teeny Wifi dongles. I have some that are the same
    size as a wireless mouse dongle. I have a bunch and have found generally
    the smaller it is the better it works. Larger and more expensive usually
    means older tech. So the $3 tiny one works great. :)

    one ... something 'odd' about the picture compared to the picture of the original module. Oh! Three antenna terminals! Duh! The upgrade module
    would fit but no 5 GHz antenna to connect to!

    Whoops :)
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Wed Aug 16 07:28:00 2023

    Hi Ky!

    KM> The problem with a Chromebook is that it's not a standard laptop,
    KM> so it needs a distro that's known to work with it. And not all of
    KM> them will. But a bunch do.
    Good information on Chromebook and distribution options -- I'm going to
    add to my information pool. And yes, some computers are highly
    proprietary: good in some ways, bad in others.
    Good only if it's a vertical ecosystem and you don't need
    anything external. This is the Apple model. Bad if you want
    flexibility. This is everyone else. :)

    Pretty much agree. Back when I was selling computers we had the IBMs
    and the Apples - at the time mainly MacIntoshes -- the G3's with the brightly-coloured cases (orange, blue, lime green). The Rep would come
    in every so often, I ask him stuff to learn. Ends up he's has a
    computer repair shop so is quite familiar with the inner workings --
    hardware and software,

    The Macs were great computers but the only way to upgrade was
    externally: no free slots inside. IIRC the power supply was encased in
    epoxy as a heat sink but also couldn't swap it out. Right now not
    recalling about the hard drive but seems pretty much everything inside
    was not changeable.



    KM> I don't know if a Chromebook does a live boot from USB, but if
    KM> so, that's the way to test out various distros and see which
    KM> work.
    It may but might also need a secret keyboard combination to do so.
    One of the links that comes up in the DDG search is Google's on
    how to load linux onto a Chromebook. I suppose such secrets are
    there revealed. :)

    Google, Bing, etc. are your friends!

    And it pretty much took me longer to start typing in the question than
    to get an answer. First hit: https://www.wikihow.com/Enable-USB-Booting-on-Chromebook



    KM> than from the HD. When I had it on an ancient laptop it was
    KM> perfectly fine on 340mb RAM. It is odd, doesn't feel like linux
    KM> at all, and I never did get wifi to work. It's easy to use and
    KM> runs well even on a 20 year old PC. However... there's not just
    KM> one Puppy, there are literally hundreds. Just a few:
    As for the WiFi, possibly needs a driver installed. My HP laptop only
    has 2.4 GHz capabilities so I added a dual-band dongle. For the dongle
    to work it needed to have a driver manually installed. Semi-oddly my
    To be more accurate, Wifi worked ONCE. Then never worked again.
    It would go through the motions but nothing happened.
    If there's no driver, the usual linux thing is the device simply
    isn't available. It won't show up at all. This thought it was
    there.

    More or less right: the WiFi device will show up in lsusb but not in
    Settings > Network and other areas. As for your critter, maybe the
    wrong driver was being used so it was detected but not useable (right
    chip, wrong instructions).


    Lenovo laptop which pre-dated the HP one by probably ten years accepts
    both bands. ...Was going to update the WiFi module in the HP so I didn't need to use the dongle (sticks out, potential for damage, loss); found
    You can get little teeny Wifi dongles. I have some that are the
    same size as a wireless mouse dongle. I have a bunch and have
    found generally the smaller it is the better it works. Larger and
    more expensive usually means older tech. So the $3 tiny one works
    great. :)

    Hmm: started reading that and thinging my response would be along the
    lines of "the stick-out part of mine is about the size of a thumb nail
    and I really don't use it all that often to warrent the price of a new
    one just to be smaller". Then reading the end and thinking a new-and- improved smaller one for a few dollars is something to keep in mind to
    go with those Amazon orders where I need another dollar or two to get to
    the free shipping level.


    one ... something 'odd' about the picture compared to the picture of the original module. Oh! Three antenna terminals! Duh! The upgrade module would fit but no 5 GHz antenna to connect to!
    Whoops :)

    Fortunately caught before ordering! Kept finding better prices and
    options but the photos didn't show the antenna terminals.




    BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET



    ... You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light , then you Energy.
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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Fri Aug 18 08:40:00 2023
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Ky!
    KM> Good only if it's a vertical ecosystem and you don't need
    KM> anything external. This is the Apple model. Bad if you want
    KM> flexibility. This is everyone else. :)

    Pretty much agree. Back when I was selling computers we had the IBMs
    and the Apples - at the time mainly MacIntoshes -- the G3's with the brightly-coloured cases (orange, blue, lime green). The Rep would come
    in every so often, I ask him stuff to learn. Ends up he's has a
    computer repair shop so is quite familiar with the inner workings --
    hardware and software,

    The Macs were great computers but the only way to upgrade was
    externally: no free slots inside. IIRC the power supply was encased in
    epoxy as a heat sink but also couldn't swap it out. Right now not
    recalling about the hard drive but seems pretty much everything inside
    was not changeable.

    I had a couple of beige-box G3 systems come through the slushpile when I
    was the local user grope's hardware dude. I have never seen so much
    awful packed into such a small space. Two nominally identical systems
    were every which different inside, like Packard Smell run amok and then through a crusher to make it small.

    Not worth the trouble to get running... junked both of them.

    First Mac I was ever called to repair... fan gave out in the power
    supply. Should be an easy replacement, right? Nope... the PSU was
    riveted together AND riveted into the case such that you couldn't get at
    the rivet heads to pop them loose. Owner ended up leaving the case
    propped open instead (probably better ventilation than the fan provided anyway).

    I have a G4 of the silver tower era -- it's much less awful, tho was
    highly amused to discover that everything inside, except for the
    mainboard and CPU, is an off the shelf PC part. At some point I borrowed
    the vidcard and have no idea if it got its original back, but it works.
    Also gave it RAM from the PC drawer, and an IDE SSD. Performance is now
    much better. Someone paid $3,999.99 for it in 2000... at the time it was performance-equivalent to a P2-500 from 1998 that sold for $600.


    > KM> I don't know if a Chromebook does a live boot from USB, but if
    > KM> so, that's the way to test out various distros and see which
    > KM> work.
    > It may but might also need a secret keyboard combination to do so.
    KM> One of the links that comes up in the DDG search is Google's on
    KM> how to load linux onto a Chromebook. I suppose such secrets are
    KM> there revealed. :)

    Google, Bing, etc. are your friends!

    Not me! Here it's DuckDuckGo, or less often StartPage or Yandex.


    And it pretty much took me longer to start typing in the question than
    to get an answer. First hit: https://www.wikihow.com/Enable-USB-Booting-on-Chromebook

    See? That was easy!



    > KM> than from the HD. When I had it on an ancient laptop it was
    > KM> perfectly fine on 340mb RAM. It is odd, doesn't feel like linux
    > KM> at all, and I never did get wifi to work. It's easy to use and
    > KM> runs well even on a 20 year old PC. However... there's not just
    > KM> one Puppy, there are literally hundreds. Just a few:
    > As for the WiFi, possibly needs a driver installed. My HP laptop only
    > has 2.4 GHz capabilities so I added a dual-band dongle. For the dongle
    > to work it needed to have a driver manually installed. Semi-oddly my
    KM> To be more accurate, Wifi worked ONCE. Then never worked again.
    KM> It would go through the motions but nothing happened.
    KM> If there's no driver, the usual linux thing is the device simply
    KM> isn't available. It won't show up at all. This thought it was
    KM> there.

    More or less right: the WiFi device will show up in lsusb but not in
    Settings > Network and other areas. As for your critter, maybe the
    wrong driver was being used so it was detected but not useable (right
    chip, wrong instructions).

    Picky, picky!! Well, the driver didn't change so why it worked ONCE but
    then never again is a total mystery. Mind you this was ONCE and then
    never again on the SAME DAY with nothing between but a restart. Power
    down did not fix.


    > Lenovo laptop which pre-dated the HP one by probably ten years accepts
    > both bands. ...Was going to update the WiFi module in the HP so I didn't
    > need to use the dongle (sticks out, potential for damage, loss); found
    KM> You can get little teeny Wifi dongles. I have some that are the
    KM> same size as a wireless mouse dongle. I have a bunch and have
    KM> found generally the smaller it is the better it works. Larger and
    KM> more expensive usually means older tech. So the $3 tiny one works
    KM> great. :)

    Hmm: started reading that and thinging my response would be along the
    lines of "the stick-out part of mine is about the size of a thumb nail

    That's about right :)

    and I really don't use it all that often to warrent the price of a new
    one just to be smaller". Then reading the end and thinking a new-and- improved smaller one for a few dollars is something to keep in mind to
    go with those Amazon orders where I need another dollar or two to get to
    the free shipping level.

    I keep the things on hand because they're quick and easy and the RealTek
    chips are recognized by just about anything. So something that lacks a
    NIC or is out of convenient range of the network kudzu -- no problem!

    .. You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light ý, then you Energy.

    <snork>
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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Sat Aug 19 08:01:00 2023

    Hi Ky!

    KM> Good only if it's a vertical ecosystem and you don't need
    KM> anything external. This is the Apple model. Bad if you want
    KM> flexibility. This is everyone else. :)
    Pretty much agree. Back when I was selling computers we had the IBMs
    and the Apples - at the time mainly MacIntoshes -- the G3's with the brightly-coloured cases (orange, blue, lime green). The Rep would come
    in every so often, I ask him stuff to learn. Ends up he's has a
    computer repair shop so is quite familiar with the inner workings -- hardware and software,
    The Macs were great computers but the only way to upgrade was
    externally: no free slots inside. IIRC the power supply was encased in epoxy as a heat sink but also couldn't swap it out. Right now not
    recalling about the hard drive but seems pretty much everything inside
    was not changeable.
    I had a couple of beige-box G3 systems come through the slushpile
    when I was the local user grope's hardware dude. I have never
    seen so much awful packed into such a small space. Two nominally
    identical systems were every which different inside, like Packard
    Smell run amok and then through a crusher to make it small.

    These were the 'pretty' ones -- the ones that came in blue, orange,
    green, etc. I don't recall the vendor (owned a computer repair shop and
    did the stores' stuff as a side) menioning that variable insides, but
    then possibly not come up just because I was asking for improving my
    sales and potentially buying one.

    Your 'different inside' comment reminded me of why I never bought a Dell computer when I was buying refurbished computers: I never could get a
    detailed answer on what was inside. I don't recall if down to the
    amount of RAM but do recall seemed I could never find if there were
    available expansion slots. Is the video integrated or a daughtercard? <crickets> This was around 30 years ago so things probably have
    changed, but at the time turned me off to Dells for personal use: I'm
    not going to buy something if I don't know if I can do the usual
    eventual upgrade.



    Not worth the trouble to get running... junked both of them.

    (Back the the iMac G3's). Yup.


    First Mac I was ever called to repair... fan gave out in the
    power supply. Should be an easy replacement, right? Nope... the
    PSU was riveted together AND riveted into the case such that you
    couldn't get at the rivet heads to pop them loose. Owner ended up
    leaving the case propped open instead (probably better
    ventilation than the fan provided anyway).

    <chuckle> Could sort of see the inaccessible rivets: stuff's assembled
    by robots and people, so if the power supply is inserted first nothing
    is in the way until start adding the rest of the computer around it.
    You'd probably have to disassemble the whole computer to get to those
    rivets.

    Sort of reminds me of a UPS I have. Decent one still. To replace the
    two batteries take the insides out -- and greeted by a cage securely
    holding the batteries inside and the UPS motherboard on top.
    Essentially there is no way to get to the batteries without taking the motherboard apart, which sounds like a simple step but is anything but.

    I remember checking on-line and just one person had managed to
    disassemble and reassemble without damage to the motherboard. I ended
    up leaving the dead batteries inside, routing the battery cables though
    a hole and on to two external batteries. ...I'll admit that UPS now has
    the fastst battery swap: seconds! <g>



    I have a G4 of the silver tower era -- it's much less awful, tho
    was highly amused to discover that everything inside, except for
    the mainboard and CPU, is an off the shelf PC part. At some point
    I borrowed the vidcard and have no idea if it got its original
    back, but it works. Also gave it RAM from the PC drawer, and an
    IDE SSD. Performance is now much better. Someone paid $3,999.99
    for it in 2000... at the time it was performance-equivalent to a
    P2-500 from 1998 that sold for $600.

    Paying for the name are we?! I've upgraded several old computers with
    SSDs and it's amazing how fast they boot and react! I have one with a
    BIOS displaying a copyright of 2009, 6 GB RAM, and it boots in probably
    15 seconds; Ubuntu 22.04 (Jammy Jellyfish) and runs MythTV v31 quite
    fine.



    > KM> I don't know if a Chromebook does a live boot from USB, but if
    > KM> so, that's the way to test out various distros and see which
    > KM> work.
    > It may but might also need a secret keyboard combination to do so.
    KM> One of the links that comes up in the DDG search is Google's on
    KM> how to load linux onto a Chromebook. I suppose such secrets are
    KM> there revealed. :)

    Google, Bing, etc. are your friends!
    Not me! Here it's DuckDuckGo, or less often StartPage or Yandex.

    Some of it is what one is familiar with, some may be how technical the looks-ups are.....



    And it pretty much took me longer to start typing in the question than
    to get an answer. First hit: https://www.wikihow.com/Enable-USB-Booting-on-Chromebook
    See? That was easy!

    Sometimes it's knowing how to phrase the inquiry to the search engine.



    > KM> than from the HD. When I had it on an ancient laptop it was
    > KM> perfectly fine on 340mb RAM. It is odd, doesn't feel like linux
    > KM> at all, and I never did get wifi to work. It's easy to use and
    > KM> runs well even on a 20 year old PC. However... there's not just
    > KM> one Puppy, there are literally hundreds. Just a few:
    > As for the WiFi, possibly needs a driver installed. My HP laptop only
    > has 2.4 GHz capabilities so I added a dual-band dongle. For the dongle
    > to work it needed to have a driver manually installed. Semi-oddly my
    KM> To be more accurate, Wifi worked ONCE. Then never worked again.
    KM> It would go through the motions but nothing happened.
    KM> If there's no driver, the usual linux thing is the device simply
    KM> isn't available. It won't show up at all. This thought it was
    KM> there.
    More or less right: the WiFi device will show up in lsusb but not in Settings > Network and other areas. As for your critter, maybe the
    wrong driver was being used so it was detected but not useable (right
    chip, wrong instructions).
    Picky, picky!! Well, the driver didn't change so why it worked
    ONCE but then never again is a total mystery. Mind you this was
    ONCE and then never again on the SAME DAY with nothing between
    but a restart. Power down did not fix.

    Booting killed it! Your WiFi dongle needed the generic driver which you covered up with the new one! (semi-joking)



    > Lenovo laptop which pre-dated the HP one by probably ten years accepts
    > both bands. ...Was going to update the WiFi module in the HP so I
    idn't
    > need to use the dongle (sticks out, potential for damage, loss); found
    KM> You can get little teeny Wifi dongles. I have some that are the
    KM> same size as a wireless mouse dongle. I have a bunch and have
    KM> found generally the smaller it is the better it works. Larger and
    KM> more expensive usually means older tech. So the $3 tiny one works
    KM> great. :)
    Hmm: started reading that and thinging my response would be along the
    lines of "the stick-out part of mine is about the size of a thumb nail
    That's about right :)

    Ah! Maybe the WiFi dongle I have is as small as it goes. I was thinking
    the dongle for the wireless keyboard and mouse which sticks out about ". ...Well, they do have 'nano size' WiFi adapters which are the " size --
    2.4 GHz only so doing the same as what's built-in. I'll take a better
    look later. Quick look at Newegg (just because I haven't bothered them
    in a while doing parts look-up) pretty much showed the same size I have
    now (the thumb nail size).


    and I really don't use it all that often to warrent the price of a new
    one just to be smaller". Then reading the end and thinking a new-and- improved smaller one for a few dollars is something to keep in mind to
    go with those Amazon orders where I need another dollar or two to get to
    the free shipping level.
    I keep the things on hand because they're quick and easy and the
    RealTek chips are recognized by just about anything. So something
    that lacks a NIC or is out of convenient range of the network
    kudzu -- no problem!

    Spare parts on hand is a good thing!



    .. You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light ý, then you Energy.
    <snork>

    What happened to my 'squared' character?!



    BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET



    ... Be there for others, but _never_ leave yourself behind.
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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Sun Aug 20 14:07:00 2023
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Ky!
    KM> I had a couple of beige-box G3 systems come through the slushpile
    KM> when I was the local user grope's hardware dude. I have never
    KM> seen so much awful packed into such a small space. Two nominally
    KM> identical systems were every which different inside, like Packard
    KM> Smell run amok and then through a crusher to make it small.

    These were the 'pretty' ones -- the ones that came in blue, orange,
    green, etc. I don't recall the vendor (owned a computer repair shop and
    did the stores' stuff as a side) menioning that variable insides, but
    then possibly not come up just because I was asking for improving my
    sales and potentially buying one.

    Were those the fanless all-in-one? Have personally seen one of those
    catch fire...

    Your 'different inside' comment reminded me of why I never bought a Dell computer when I was buying refurbished computers: I never could get a detailed answer on what was inside. I don't recall if down to the

    Um... open it up and look. :)


    amount of RAM but do recall seemed I could never find if there were
    available expansion slots. Is the video integrated or a daughtercard? <crickets> This was around 30 years ago so things probably have

    I don't know what they did before about 2000, but I've had several
    desktop Dells fall on my head since then. All you need do is pull on the
    latch (they have a latched side or top panel, not screws) and take a look.

    What the mainboard offers depends on which form factor and which grade.

    I have two Dells that came in a standard-enough ATX tower and they're basically what you'd build out of the scrap bin.

    Tinker (since died of the capacitor plague) was a P4-3GHz with 1 AGP and
    3 PCI slots. Don't offhand recall if it had onboard video but you could
    add a card. 4 RAM slots. I think the mainboard was actually made by
    Intel, and the case is an Antec. (It was their most expensive model
    which came to me because it wouldn't run stable due to overheating. I
    ditched the Dell shroud, gave it a standard HSF, and it was fine.)

    Lightfoot is a Quad-core 3GHz with onboard everything, 3 PCIe and one
    PCI slot. 4 RAM slots. It came with some random vidcard along with the
    onboard video. It is the cheap consumer model.

    Here's the same board:
    https://www.ebay.com/p/98189154
    This is the cheap consumer board, not expected to work hard for a living.

    Unlike some Dells, these both have standard power pin-outs, so any PSU
    will work. Lightfoot came to me "dead" and the problem was marginal PSU
    -- it works, but can't quite make enough output. Replaced with random
    PSU from the scrap pile and used Lightfoot for several years; only
    retired to the other room because I had more quad cores than I could
    use. But it still works fine. For a while the mainboard was in a
    different case because of reasons I've forgotten, and some other board
    was in Lightfoot's original case, but now it's all back how it started.

    And I have three Optiplex 9010 minis. This is a compact case that can
    sit desktop or tower. These came with i7-3770 CPUs. There is onboard
    video but they also came with a fairly decent vidcard (Radeon R7 350X
    4GB). 1-PCIe16 1-PCIe4. 4 RAM slots, max 32GB. These were designed as
    business units.

    I don't know about the mini Optiplex pinout but the PSU is a long narrow
    thing like a server PSU. The other drawback is that there is only room
    for one 3.5" HD or two 2.5", but it's easy enough to get to. The larger
    size Optiplex (there are three sizes, one is smaller yet) may have a
    standard PSU and more slots and bays, I haven't checked.

    Well, this is the larger version of the same board: https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813186233
    main difference is having two PCI slots and more SATA ports.

    Anyway, I can firmly recommend a used Optiplex as a very inexpensive
    prebuilt that's often seen as a business discard (this model is commonly available for around $100, complete). They get along with whatever
    random OSs, have been very stable, and make a good Hackintosh. While the
    mini can't do much upgrading, they're good enough as an everyday usin' box.

    The other Repurposed NameBrand Core in my Closet is Fireball, who
    started life as a Lenovo Thinkstation S30. This is a very good quality
    X79 mainboard that takes a midrange i7 or Xeon. 3-PCIe16, 1-PCIe4,
    1-PCI, 8 RAM slots (192GB max capacity, and can use the cheaper server
    RAM) and without opening it up to look I think it has 6 SATA and 4 SAS
    ports. However I would strongly recommend sticking to one that comes
    with its original case, because this will save you a lot of swearing as
    you figure out all the oddities of the front panel and USB connections
    (one of which needs an extra jumper shorted to work properly).

    Similar to this one, but mine has the SAS ports. (There are two models) https://www.ebay.com/p/1366285012

    changed, but at the time turned me off to Dells for personal use: I'm
    not going to buy something if I don't know if I can do the usual
    eventual upgrade.

    What sort of upgrade? I looked inside my Dells, saw that they were
    already maxed out for CPU, and at a minimal cost I maxed out the RAM.
    They are now as upgraded as they get. In this era of external drives and networked storage, I no longer feel the need to put six hard drives
    inside every case. In fact Silver has none inside the case; they're all
    in the hotswap bays. :)

    I may eventually get Fireball a faster CPU (it has whatever Xeon was
    available for $20, or was it $5... wasn't very much), as what's in it is toward the lower end. However it's performance-equivalent to Silver
    (i7-4820k) as it is. It already has 64GB RAM, filched from the server
    that's being gradually gutted for parts.

    The only other namebrand desktop I have now is an HP/Compaq, and the
    mainboard is an off-the-shelf Asus M2N68-AM with Athlon64 X2 DualCore
    4200+ 2.2GHz. Except it's a second, as the BIOS is hardcoded to not
    accept a faster CPU (otherwise it could be seriously upgraded), and the Athlon64 it came with is not a true x64 CPU. Which explains the 32bit
    Vista that came on it. Oh well, it runs fine, and saves me the
    embarrassment of having Vista on a better PC. ;)

    KM> First Mac I was ever called to repair... fan gave out in the
    KM> power supply. Should be an easy replacement, right? Nope... the
    KM> PSU was riveted together AND riveted into the case such that you
    KM> couldn't get at the rivet heads to pop them loose. Owner ended up
    KM> leaving the case propped open instead (probably better
    KM> ventilation than the fan provided anyway).

    <chuckle> Could sort of see the inaccessible rivets: stuff's assembled
    by robots and people, so if the power supply is inserted first nothing
    is in the way until start adding the rest of the computer around it.
    You'd probably have to disassemble the whole computer to get to those
    rivets.

    Would have had to tear out metal. The joys of pop rivets.


    Sort of reminds me of a UPS I have. Decent one still. To replace the
    two batteries take the insides out -- and greeted by a cage securely
    holding the batteries inside and the UPS motherboard on top.
    Essentially there is no way to get to the batteries without taking the motherboard apart, which sounds like a simple step but is anything but.

    Ugh.

    I don't bother doing battery swaps on modern UPSs. The battery is $89
    and the whole durn unit is $99 at Costco and comes with a 2 year
    warranty by Costco, which is a lot better than the replacement battery.

    I remember checking on-line and just one person had managed to
    disassemble and reassemble without damage to the motherboard. I ended
    up leaving the dead batteries inside, routing the battery cables though
    a hole and on to two external batteries. ...I'll admit that UPS now has
    the fastst battery swap: seconds! <g>

    HA!!!

    KM> I have a G4 of the silver tower era -- it's much less awful, tho
    KM> was highly amused to discover that everything inside, except for
    KM> the mainboard and CPU, is an off the shelf PC part. At some point
    KM> I borrowed the vidcard and have no idea if it got its original
    KM> back, but it works. Also gave it RAM from the PC drawer, and an
    KM> IDE SSD. Performance is now much better. Someone paid $3,999.99
    KM> for it in 2000... at the time it was performance-equivalent to a
    KM> P2-500 from 1998 that sold for $600.

    Paying for the name are we?! I've upgraded several old computers with

    Apparently. :/ It came with all sorts of software (Photoshop etc.) but
    far as I can tell it was never used.

    SSDs and it's amazing how fast they boot and react! I have one with a
    BIOS displaying a copyright of 2009, 6 GB RAM, and it boots in probably
    15 seconds; Ubuntu 22.04 (Jammy Jellyfish) and runs MythTV v31 quite
    fine.

    Yeah, SSD does wonders. If I'm gonna keep using this durn Fedora it'll
    need to get one, because it's a good five minutes from power on to
    usable desktop. Tho a lot of that is gotta go check for updates BEFORE
    it'll do anything else, and updates are so freakin' slow via Discover
    that I do it via CLI instead.

    > Google, Bing, etc. are your friends!
    KM> Not me! Here it's DuckDuckGo, or less often StartPage or Yandex.

    Some of it is what one is familiar with, some may be how technical the looks-ups are.....

    Or how few *&%#!! sponsored links you want in your way....

    KM> Picky, picky!! Well, the driver didn't change so why it worked
    KM> ONCE but then never again is a total mystery. Mind you this was
    KM> ONCE and then never again on the SAME DAY with nothing between
    KM> but a restart. Power down did not fix.

    Booting killed it! Your WiFi dongle needed the generic driver which you covered up with the new one! (semi-joking)

    No, this was onboard wifi.... it's a laptop....

    > .. You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light ý, then you Energy.
    KM> <snork>

    What happened to my 'squared' character?!

    Some people square the circle. You circled the dra-- er, square. <g>
    RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS Hollywood, Ca www.techware2k.com

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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Wed Aug 23 09:48:00 2023

    Hi Ky!

    KM> I had a couple of beige-box G3 systems come through the slushpile
    KM> when I was the local user grope's hardware dude. I have never
    KM> seen so much awful packed into such a small space. Two nominally
    KM> identical systems were every which different inside, like Packard
    KM> Smell run amok and then through a crusher to make it small.
    These were the 'pretty' ones -- the ones that came in blue, orange,
    green, etc. I don't recall the vendor (owned a computer repair shop and
    did the stores' stuff as a side) menioning that variable insides, but
    then possibly not come up just because I was asking for improving my
    sales and potentially buying one.
    Were those the fanless all-in-one? Have personally seen one of
    those catch fire...

    So you're indicating they ran a little hot?! Yes, these were all-in-
    ones; I think the power supply was encased in epoxy; maybe the
    motherboard -- for heatsink?? Mainly recalling it was a good computer
    just not a good fit for me as I liked to go inside and improve/upgrade.


    Your 'different inside' comment reminded me of why I never bought a Dell computer when I was buying refurbished computers: I never could get a detailed answer on what was inside. I don't recall if down to the
    Um... open it up and look. :)

    Well the problem would be I would need to buy it and then open it up to
    see what it was made of.


    amount of RAM but do recall seemed I could never find if there were available expansion slots. Is the video integrated or a daughtercard? <crickets> This was around 30 years ago so things probably have
    I don't know what they did before about 2000, but I've had
    several desktop Dells fall on my head since then. All you need do
    is pull on the latch (they have a latched side or top panel, not
    screws) and take a look.

    Probably right on the easy-opening: I've got some IBMs/Lenovo's here
    which do the same: I know one has a single latch-button in the rear of
    the top cover which inside connects to a Y-shaped brackets which somehow
    opens latches on sides. Most of the others simply have a button on each
    side to unlatch. (Maybe the one-button thing was because he broke his
    arm and couldn't do two buttons at the same time, or was showing off for
    a machanical award!)


    What the mainboard offers depends on which form factor and which
    grade.

    That was the details I couldn't get (and I'm talking pre-2000 still).
    The selling info would say "Dell Model 1234-C" but go to look that up
    and I oculd only get to what options it could come with, so might come
    with a 240W PSU or a a 750W one or somewhere in-between. Base of 8 GB
    RAM, but no indication of expansion possibilities nor available slots.

    Good news: it's well past 2000 and apparently the information is more
    readily available now.


    I have two Dells that came in a standard-enough ATX tower and
    they're basically what you'd build out of the scrap bin.

    Good. :)


    Tinker (since died of the capacitor plague) was a P4-3GHz with 1
    AGP and 3 PCI slots. Don't offhand recall if it had onboard video
    but you could add a card. 4 RAM slots. I think the mainboard was
    actually made by Intel, and the case is an Antec. (It was their
    most expensive model which came to me because it wouldn't run
    stable due to overheating. I ditched the Dell shroud, gave it a
    standard HSF, and it was fine.)

    Heat can create strange issues! (Tangent) It's been hot and humid here
    this week -- air temperatures approaching 100 (might be a degree or two
    over that this afternoon or tomorrow). I've got two Raspberry Pi's in a
    closet - both in metal cases with heat sink 'feet' to the motherbaord.
    One has a fan, one doesn't. (Built/installed at two different times.)
    The one without the fan started acting up lately: the closet isn't that
    hot but apparently with lack of circulation... Contactless thermal
    probe: yup: fanless case about 10 hotter than the fan case, plus the
    software report of the processor's temperature was 10-15 warmer on the fanless one.

    External fan on both (they're side-by-side) -- slightly cooler and more stable.

    Swapped out the fanless one with plastic case with built-in fan and new
    RPi -- easier to swap the whole thing than take apart. Did attach heat
    sinks to the motherboard. The replacement Pi is running a few degrees
    cooler than the other Pi (the one in the metal case with fan)!


    Lightfoot is a Quad-core 3GHz with onboard everything, 3 PCIe and
    one PCI slot. 4 RAM slots. It came with some random vidcard along
    with the onboard video. It is the cheap consumer model.

    Here's the same board:
    https://www.ebay.com/p/98189154
    This is the cheap consumer board, not expected to work hard for a
    living.

    Poor thing wouldn't last long here! The eBay site didn't have the specs
    but took me a couple of clicks to get to a site with specifications. To
    me that's acceptable' back in the old days (my pre-2000 buy refurbished)
    I couldn't get the to specs. Nice to see they've changed!


    Unlike some Dells, these both have standard power pin-outs, so
    any PSU will work. Lightfoot came to me "dead" and the problem
    was marginal PSU -- it works, but can't quite make enough output.
    Replaced with random PSU from the scrap pile and used Lightfoot
    for several years; only retired to the other room because I had
    more quad cores than I could use. But it still works fine. For a
    while the mainboard was in a different case because of reasons
    I've forgotten, and some other board was in Lightfoot's original
    case, but now it's all back how it started.

    <chuckle> Yes, I've done "Swap That Part!" and sometimes forget which
    part was from where. ..Hey: everything works as desired, so guess leave
    alone!


    And I have three Optiplex 9010 minis. This is a compact case that
    can sit desktop or tower. These came with i7-3770 CPUs. There is
    onboard video but they also came with a fairly decent vidcard
    (Radeon R7 350X 4GB). 1-PCIe16 1-PCIe4. 4 RAM slots, max 32GB.
    These were designed as business units.

    Case is suit-and-tie as opposed to khakis! <g> ...I tend to go for 'overbuilt' so it will last. I tend to let the parts 'roll downhill":
    I'll build myself a brand-new unit for myself, backend -- what was
    replaced (eventually) goes to replace the next 'level', that unit
    eventually replaces something else.... 'Bottom level' sometimes left as
    a spare, sometimes disassembled for parts (extreme example: a Pentium
    unit might have a darn good video card which could be used in a
    mid-level build).



    I don't know about the mini Optiplex pinout but the PSU is a long
    narrow thing like a server PSU. The other drawback is that there
    is only room for one 3.5" HD or two 2.5", but it's easy enough to
    get to. The larger size Optiplex (there are three sizes, one is
    smaller yet) may have a standard PSU and more slots and bays, I
    haven't checked.

    Yes, I have an older computer which comes in three 'flavours': the one I
    have is a 'CMT' -- Convertible Mini Tower ==> upright or flat. Another version is a slimline -- suppose nice if room is at a premium but a PITA
    to easily swap parts -- daughtercards have to be half-height! I've
    forgotten what the third option was.


    Well, this is the larger version of the same board: https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813186233
    main difference is having two PCI slots and more SATA ports.

    More is sometimes better, but as Newegg is out of stock doesn't matter!


    Anyway, I can firmly recommend a used Optiplex as a very
    inexpensive prebuilt that's often seen as a business discard
    (this model is commonly available for around $100, complete).
    They get along with whatever random OSs, have been very stable,
    and make a good Hackintosh. While the mini can't do much
    upgrading, they're good enough as an everyday usin' box.

    Right: I've got some computers around here where their main purpose is
    to be able to watch recorded TV shows (run MythTV). Those don't need
    much more than the basics.


    The other Repurposed NameBrand Core in my Closet is Fireball, who
    started life as a Lenovo Thinkstation S30. This is a very good
    quality X79 mainboard that takes a midrange i7 or Xeon. 3-PCIe16,
    1-PCIe4, 1-PCI, 8 RAM slots (192GB max capacity, and can use the
    cheaper server RAM) and without opening it up to look I think it
    has 6 SATA and 4 SAS ports. However I would strongly recommend
    sticking to one that comes with its original case, because this
    will save you a lot of swearing as you figure out all the
    oddities of the front panel and USB connections (one of which
    needs an extra jumper shorted to work properly).

    Yup: reminds me of a nice HP (maybe Compaq) case I had gutted and
    updated. Everything was nice until got to the DVD - the original CD
    must have had a bracket or something as the DVD had problems with the
    opening of the front panel flap, or opened but the try didn't come out
    far enough... something.



    changed, but at the time turned me off to Dells for personal use: I'm
    not going to buy something if I don't know if I can do the usual
    eventual upgrade.
    What sort of upgrade? I looked inside my Dells, saw that they
    were already maxed out for CPU, and at a minimal cost I maxed out
    the RAM. They are now as upgraded as they get. In this era of
    external drives and networked storage, I no longer feel the need
    to put six hard drives inside every case. In fact Silver has none
    inside the case; they're all in the hotswap bays. :)

    LIS this was twenty-thirty years ago and appears the information is
    readily available now. Problem is that little bit of secretative soured
    my thinking of them as far as purchasing refurbished. Do think they're
    good, just not being able to get the information I needed. As noted
    somewhere above, appears that has changed. ...OTOH, now I 'roll down'
    my motherboards, etc., so not sure I need to buy an entire unit or motherboard.


    I may eventually get Fireball a faster CPU (it has whatever Xeon
    was available for $20, or was it $5... wasn't very much), as
    what's in it is toward the lower end. However it's
    performance-equivalent to Silver (i7-4820k) as it is. It already
    has 64GB RAM, filched from the server that's being gradually
    gutted for parts.

    Upgrading the RAM might be a significant speed increase. RAM plus CPU
    might be a Memorex Moment (remember the old ads for the cassette tape
    with the guy sitting in front of his speakers and the gale-force wind?!). Running off a SSD will really do an increase!


    The only other namebrand desktop I have now is an HP/Compaq, and
    the mainboard is an off-the-shelf Asus M2N68-AM with Athlon64 X2
    DualCore 4200+ 2.2GHz. Except it's a second, as the BIOS is
    hardcoded to not accept a faster CPU (otherwise it could be
    seriously upgraded), and the Athlon64 it came with is not a true
    x64 CPU. Which explains the 32bit Vista that came on it. Oh well,
    it runs fine, and saves me the embarrassment of having Vista on a
    better PC. ;)

    <chuckle>> Yeah! For what I do I've found I don't need Windows --
    expect for this BBS stuff. Running XP off a Virtual Machine just
    because I haven't gotten around to switching to Ubuntu. ...I'll admit
    the X10 Home Automation under Windows XP was better but as no longer
    supported and was having problems sort of a wash.


    KM> First Mac I was ever called to repair... fan gave out in the
    KM> power supply. Should be an easy replacement, right? Nope... the
    KM> PSU was riveted together AND riveted into the case such that you
    KM> couldn't get at the rivet heads to pop them loose. Owner ended up
    KM> leaving the case propped open instead (probably better
    KM> ventilation than the fan provided anyway).
    <chuckle> Could sort of see the inaccessible rivets: stuff's assembled
    by robots and people, so if the power supply is inserted first nothing
    is in the way until start adding the rest of the computer around it.
    You'd probably have to disassemble the whole computer to get to those rivets.
    Would have had to tear out metal. The joys of pop rivets.

    Sort of reminds me a friend's parents' TV I repaired years ago: they'd sometimes get a 2" wide picture on the CRT (told ya it was years ago!) -
    smack it on the side of the cabinet and usually worked again. I bought
    the schematic (probably Sam's Photofact), tracked down the problem to a
    bad solder joint. So resolder, right? Suuuure: the joint right under a
    metal bar and so couldn't quite get my soldering iron in. Was able to
    bend or cut the bar (forgot which), do th resoldering - taa-daa!



    Sort of reminds me of a UPS I have. Decent one still. To replace the
    two batteries take the insides out -- and greeted by a cage securely
    holding the batteries inside and the UPS motherboard on top.
    Essentially there is no way to get to the batteries without taking the motherboard apart, which sounds like a simple step but is anything but.
    Ugh.

    Right. Recall numerous comments on great UPS except for the problem
    with replacing batteries. Batteries need to be replaced -- fact. Send
    in for replacement -- well, you're either without a UPS during the
    repeir or have bought a replacement UPS and so have an extra. Dumb on
    the manufacturer's part. Even if someone is afraid to do their own
    battery replacement of a normal unit they could bring it in to some
    place like BatteriesPlus to have them do the swap, but not with this
    unit!


    I don't bother doing battery swaps on modern UPSs. The battery is
    $89 and the whole durn unit is $99 at Costco and comes with a 2
    year warranty by Costco, which is a lot better than the
    replacement battery.

    Hmmm... The RBC17-equivalents I've been getting are around $30 and the
    UPSs starting $160. I'm either shopping at the wrong places or
    different requirements!




    I remember checking on-line and just one person had managed to
    disassemble and reassemble without damage to the motherboard. I ended
    up leaving the dead batteries inside, routing the battery cables though
    a hole and on to two external batteries. ...I'll admit that UPS now has
    the fastest battery swap: seconds! <g>
    HA!!!

    Not pretty but quick!



    KM> I have a G4 of the silver tower era -- it's much less awful, tho
    KM> was highly amused to discover that everything inside, except for
    KM> the mainboard and CPU, is an off the shelf PC part. At some point
    KM> I borrowed the vidcard and have no idea if it got its original
    KM> back, but it works. Also gave it RAM from the PC drawer, and an
    KM> IDE SSD. Performance is now much better. Someone paid $3,999.99
    KM> for it in 2000... at the time it was performance-equivalent to a
    KM> P2-500 from 1998 that sold for $600.
    Paying for the name are we?! I've upgraded several old computers with
    Apparently. :/ It came with all sorts of software (Photoshop
    etc.) but far as I can tell it was never used.

    Maybe was being used as a spare. Maybe the company buying them found it cheaper to buy 500 computers when they only needed 450: I used to work
    for a company which built mainframes, "etc.". They had an Electronics
    Store where they'd sell off the spare parts. Was cheaper to buy one
    million 2N2222 and only use most -- they extras were sometimes given
    away in small quantities -- wasn't worth the cost of the paperwork!
    (Yes I have a bunch of them and other parts I got for free/super cheap
    in the workshop in the basement.)


    SSDs and it's amazing how fast they boot and react! I have one with a
    BIOS displaying a copyright of 2009, 6 GB RAM, and it boots in probably
    15 seconds; Ubuntu 22.04 (Jammy Jellyfish) and runs MythTV v31 quite
    fine.
    Yeah, SSD does wonders. If I'm gonna keep using this durn Fedora
    it'll need to get one, because it's a good five minutes from
    power on to usable desktop. Tho a lot of that is gotta go check
    for updates BEFORE it'll do anything else, and updates are so
    freakin' slow via Discover that I do it via CLI instead.

    It's because of Fedora!! (I use Ubuntu and there is a bit of friendly
    rivalry between distributions. MythTV originally required Ubuntu and
    that's why I started with Ubuntu -- no real reason for me to change.)

    This may be helpful: https://itsfoss.com/long-shutdown-linux/
    I know you said boot but may have some clues as to what to look for.


    > Google, Bing, etc. are your friends!
    KM> Not me! Here it's DuckDuckGo, or less often StartPage or Yandex.
    Some of it is what one is familiar with, some may be how technical the looks-ups are.....
    Or how few *&%#!! sponsored links you want in your way....

    uBlock helps, plus I'm pretty good at 'block scanning' and ignoring
    stuff.



    KM> Picky, picky!! Well, the driver didn't change so why it worked
    KM> ONCE but then never again is a total mystery. Mind you this was
    KM> ONCE and then never again on the SAME DAY with nothing between
    KM> but a restart. Power down did not fix.
    Booting killed it! Your WiFi dongle needed the generic driver which you covered up with the new one! (semi-joking)
    No, this was onboard wifi.... it's a laptop....

    Still could be a driver issue. Your restart could have finished
    installing an update which broke the WiFi. I (and others) seem to be
    having an issue something in the latest kernel (?) 6.2.0-26-generic
    seems to be causing some weird issues with PulseAudio -- my USB headset
    killed Firefox (!) -- oddly Firefox now works with the headset unplugged
    (there were some strange subdirs that seem to verify), read yesterday someone's Bluetooth isn't working and seems to be caused by the kernel
    update (at least one other person with the Bluetootk issue). Can you
    roll back to a previous version of GRUB to see if your WiFi works?


    > .. You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light ý, then you
    nergy
    KM> <snork>
    What happened to my 'squared' character?!
    Some people square the circle. You circled the dra-- er, square. <g>

    Who said we wouldn't use algebra when we grew up?!




    BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET



    ... Wondered why music coming from printer. Apparently paper was jamming.
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  • From Ky Moffet@454:1/1 to Barry Martin on Thu Aug 24 16:08:00 2023
    BARRY MARTIN wrote:
    Hi Ky!
    KM> Were those the fanless all-in-one? Have personally seen one of
    KM> those catch fire...

    So you're indicating they ran a little hot?! Yes, these were all-in-

    A lot hot. Have seen one catch fire and another that smoked...

    ones; I think the power supply was encased in epoxy; maybe the
    motherboard -- for heatsink?? Mainly recalling it was a good computer
    just not a good fit for me as I liked to go inside and improve/upgrade.

    From what I hear performance was really not very good, not least
    because of thermal throttling. I guess it was better than the previous
    Macs, but that's not saying much. Poor math processing, slow bus, slow
    hard drive....

    > Your 'different inside' comment reminded me of why I never bought a Dell
    > computer when I was buying refurbished computers: I never could get a
    > detailed answer on what was inside. I don't recall if down to the
    KM> Um... open it up and look. :)

    Well the problem would be I would need to buy it and then open it up to
    see what it was made of.

    No, no, no, ask the vendor to....

    KM> I don't know what they did before about 2000, but I've had
    KM> several desktop Dells fall on my head since then. All you need do
    KM> is pull on the latch (they have a latched side or top panel, not
    KM> screws) and take a look.

    Probably right on the easy-opening: I've got some IBMs/Lenovo's here
    which do the same: I know one has a single latch-button in the rear of
    the top cover which inside connects to a Y-shaped brackets which somehow opens latches on sides. Most of the others simply have a button on each
    side to unlatch. (Maybe the one-button thing was because he broke his
    arm and couldn't do two buttons at the same time, or was showing off for
    a machanical award!)

    Hahaha... these have a handle. Very easy.

    KM> What the mainboard offers depends on which form factor and which
    KM> grade.

    That was the details I couldn't get (and I'm talking pre-2000 still).
    The selling info would say "Dell Model 1234-C" but go to look that up
    and I oculd only get to what options it could come with, so might come
    with a 240W PSU or a a 750W one or somewhere in-between. Base of 8 GB
    RAM, but no indication of expansion possibilities nor available slots.

    The pre-2000 Dells I'd seen were not very good. All the ones that came
    thru the User Grope got junked. So I don't think you missed much.

    In that era, my observation (from a couple hundred donations that were
    largely any brand you can name) was that HPs were a little better
    performing and more stable (as they were built for the business market),
    but if you wanted a prebuilt that was at all flexible and wasn't
    complete junk, Gateway was the only way to go. The parts were largely
    seconds but all pretty standard; once they got to a P-II tower you could upgrade them like any clone system. I have a PII-800 Gateway in the basement... works fine, has 9 slots and all of 'em full of something...
    just not useful in the modern era, tho it does have a TV capture card.

    So I ended up refurbing the HPs and Gateways, but everything else was
    stripped for parts. Micron and Packard Smell were such crap they got
    gutted by default, and I don't think I ever saw a working Dell.


    Good news: it's well past 2000 and apparently the information is more
    readily available now.

    Woah! Who would have guessed??!


    KM> I have two Dells that came in a standard-enough ATX tower and
    KM> they're basically what you'd build out of the scrap bin.

    Good. :)

    Good indeed :)

    Heat can create strange issues! (Tangent) It's been hot and humid here
    this week -- air temperatures approaching 100ø (might be a degree or two over that this afternoon or tomorrow). I've got two Raspberry Pi's in a closet - both in metal cases with heat sink 'feet' to the motherbaord.
    One has a fan, one doesn't. (Built/installed at two different times.)
    The one without the fan started acting up lately: the closet isn't that
    hot but apparently with lack of circulation... Contactless thermal
    probe: yup: fanless case about 10ø hotter than the fan case, plus the software report of the processor's temperature was 10-15ø warmer on the fanless one.

    Well, now you know the limits of Pi heat tolerance....

    KM> Lightfoot is a Quad-core 3GHz with onboard everything, 3 PCIe and
    KM> one PCI slot. 4 RAM slots. It came with some random vidcard along
    KM> with the onboard video. It is the cheap consumer model.

    KM> Here's the same board:
    KM> https://www.ebay.com/p/98189154
    KM> This is the cheap consumer board, not expected to work hard for a
    KM> living.

    Poor thing wouldn't last long here! The eBay site didn't have the specs
    but took me a couple of clicks to get to a site with specifications. To
    me that's acceptable' back in the old days (my pre-2000 buy refurbished)
    I couldn't get the to specs. Nice to see they've changed!

    Yeah, back then if you didn't find it published in an ad or review, you couldn't find it at all. Computer Shopper was our FRIEND!

    Oh, someone is digitizing a whole collection of Computer Shopper mags,
    what a huge project!

    http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/5543

    Kind of a shame to cut them up for scanning, but at least they'll be preserved, and available for old fogeys who want to brag about how much
    we used to spend on computer hardware. <g>


    KM> And I have three Optiplex 9010 minis. This is a compact case that
    KM> can sit desktop or tower. These came with i7-3770 CPUs. There is
    KM> onboard video but they also came with a fairly decent vidcard
    KM> (Radeon R7 350X 4GB). 1-PCIe16 1-PCIe4. 4 RAM slots, max 32GB.
    KM> These were designed as business units.

    Case is suit-and-tie as opposed to khakis! <g> ...I tend to go for 'overbuilt' so it will last. I tend to let the parts 'roll downhill":
    I'll build myself a brand-new unit for myself, backend -- what was
    replaced (eventually) goes to replace the next 'level', that unit
    eventually replaces something else.... 'Bottom level' sometimes left as
    a spare, sometimes disassembled for parts (extreme example: a Pentium
    unit might have a darn good video card which could be used in a
    mid-level build).

    Yeah, if I'm going for an everyday system that I actually spend money
    on, I want something with future legs.

    But for the one that sits over yonder and plays Youtube vids all day,
    whatever works is fine.

    KM> I don't know about the mini Optiplex pinout but the PSU is a long
    KM> narrow thing like a server PSU. The other drawback is that there
    KM> is only room for one 3.5" HD or two 2.5", but it's easy enough to
    KM> get to. The larger size Optiplex (there are three sizes, one is
    KM> smaller yet) may have a standard PSU and more slots and bays, I
    KM> haven't checked.

    Yes, I have an older computer which comes in three 'flavours': the one I
    have is a 'CMT' -- Convertible Mini Tower ==> upright or flat. Another version is a slimline -- suppose nice if room is at a premium but a PITA
    to easily swap parts -- daughtercards have to be half-height! I've
    forgotten what the third option was.

    This used to be a common thing because business wanted the options.



    KM> Well, this is the larger version of the same board:
    KM> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813186233
    KM> main difference is having two PCI slots and more SATA ports.

    More is sometimes better, but as Newegg is out of stock doesn't matter!

    And if I'm going to buy a naked motherboard, it'll be something I can
    work with.

    KM> The other Repurposed NameBrand Core in my Closet is Fireball, who
    KM> started life as a Lenovo Thinkstation S30. This is a very good
    KM> quality X79 mainboard that takes a midrange i7 or Xeon. 3-PCIe16,
    KM> 1-PCIe4, 1-PCI, 8 RAM slots (192GB max capacity, and can use the
    KM> cheaper server RAM) and without opening it up to look I think it
    KM> has 6 SATA and 4 SAS ports. However I would strongly recommend
    KM> sticking to one that comes with its original case, because this
    KM> will save you a lot of swearing as you figure out all the
    KM> oddities of the front panel and USB connections (one of which
    KM> needs an extra jumper shorted to work properly).

    Yup: reminds me of a nice HP (maybe Compaq) case I had gutted and

    Oh, I forgot, I also have Xorro, formerly Jerry Pournelle's "Regina".
    Dual Xeon 750MHz, Compaq workstation. Weighs 57 pounds.

    updated. Everything was nice until got to the DVD - the original CD
    must have had a bracket or something as the DVD had problems with the
    opening of the front panel flap, or opened but the try didn't come out
    far enough... something.

    Yeah, that was a big issue with the prebuilt cases. Lots of optical and
    floppy drives with no faceplate but an integrated slot in the front of
    the case. Which often meant a weird mount.


    > changed, but at the time turned me off to Dells for personal use: I'm
    > not going to buy something if I don't know if I can do the usual
    > eventual upgrade.
    KM> What sort of upgrade? I looked inside my Dells, saw that they
    KM> were already maxed out for CPU, and at a minimal cost I maxed out
    KM> the RAM. They are now as upgraded as they get. In this era of
    KM> external drives and networked storage, I no longer feel the need
    KM> to put six hard drives inside every case. In fact Silver has none
    KM> inside the case; they're all in the hotswap bays. :)

    LIS this was twenty-thirty years ago and appears the information is
    readily available now. Problem is that little bit of secretative soured
    my thinking of them as far as purchasing refurbished. Do think they're
    good, just not being able to get the information I needed. As noted somewhere above, appears that has changed. ...OTOH, now I 'roll down'
    my motherboards, etc., so not sure I need to buy an entire unit or motherboard.

    Yeah, when you've got plenty it's not an issue. The three Optiplex fell
    on my head (discards from my sister's office) so might as well use 'em.
    Part of why Lightfoot got sent back to the Closet -- didn't need a
    quad-core for misc. duties when I had an i7.


    KM> I may eventually get Fireball a faster CPU (it has whatever Xeon
    KM> was available for $20, or was it $5... wasn't very much), as
    KM> what's in it is toward the lower end. However it's
    KM> performance-equivalent to Silver (i7-4820k) as it is. It already
    KM> has 64GB RAM, filched from the server that's being gradually
    KM> gutted for parts.

    Upgrading the RAM might be a significant speed increase. RAM plus CPU
    might be a Memorex Moment (remember the old ads for the cassette tape
    with the guy sitting in front of his speakers and the gale-force wind?!).

    The ONLY thing that ever reaches above 32GB RAM is Chrome, which is a
    hog like no other. So 64GB is more than enough. I'd have to actually
    *shudder* buy 32GB and 16GB sticks to upgrade it to 192GB (it needs to
    be some weird combo for 8 slots) which presently doesn't seem
    worthwhile. Tho server RAM is much cheaper than desktop RAM.

    Running off a SSD will really do an increase!

    Yeah, would be helpful.

    Should buy a bunch of small ones for this sort of thing, but lightly
    used 2.5" WD Blacks are about $5 each on eBay.... (most have under 10k
    hours and many under 3k hours).


    KM> Would have had to tear out metal. The joys of pop rivets.

    Sort of reminds me a friend's parents' TV I repaired years ago: they'd sometimes get a 2" wide picture on the CRT (told ya it was years ago!) - smack it on the side of the cabinet and usually worked again. I bought
    the schematic (probably Sam's Photofact), tracked down the problem to a
    bad solder joint. So resolder, right? Suuuure: the joint right under a metal bar and so couldn't quite get my soldering iron in. Was able to
    bend or cut the bar (forgot which), do th resoldering - taa-daa!

    How to solder: First, get hammer...


    > Sort of reminds me of a UPS I have. Decent one still. To replace the
    > two batteries take the insides out -- and greeted by a cage securely
    > holding the batteries inside and the UPS motherboard on top.
    > Essentially there is no way to get to the batteries without taking the
    > motherboard apart, which sounds like a simple step but is anything but.
    KM> Ugh.

    Right. Recall numerous comments on great UPS except for the problem
    with replacing batteries. Batteries need to be replaced -- fact. Send
    in for replacement -- well, you're either without a UPS during the
    repeir or have bought a replacement UPS and so have an extra. Dumb on
    the manufacturer's part. Even if someone is afraid to do their own
    battery replacement of a normal unit they could bring it in to some
    place like BatteriesPlus to have them do the swap, but not with this
    unit!

    I was going to do it for the ones I have but opened one up and said..
    uh. Never mind. They have two inside.


    KM> I don't bother doing battery swaps on modern UPSs. The battery is
    KM> $89 and the whole durn unit is $99 at Costco and comes with a 2
    KM> year warranty by Costco, which is a lot better than the
    KM> replacement battery.

    Hmmm... The RBC17-equivalents I've been getting are around $30 and the
    UPSs starting $160. I'm either shopping at the wrong places or
    different requirements!

    APC, evidently. These are Cyberpower, aka "what Costco has".

    > KM> I have a G4 of the silver tower era -- it's much less awful, tho
    > KM> was highly amused to discover that everything inside, except for
    > KM> the mainboard and CPU, is an off the shelf PC part. At some point
    > KM> I borrowed the vidcard and have no idea if it got its original
    > KM> back, but it works. Also gave it RAM from the PC drawer, and an
    > KM> IDE SSD. Performance is now much better. Someone paid $3,999.99
    > KM> for it in 2000... at the time it was performance-equivalent to a
    > KM> P2-500 from 1998 that sold for $600.
    > Paying for the name are we?! I've upgraded several old computers with
    KM> Apparently. :/ It came with all sorts of software (Photoshop
    KM> etc.) but far as I can tell it was never used.

    Maybe was being used as a spare. Maybe the company buying them found it cheaper to buy 500 computers when they only needed 450: I used to work

    Nope, this was some old guy's personal system, forget where I found that
    but not corporate. The receipt is still on the HD.


    > SSDs and it's amazing how fast they boot and react! I have one with a
    > BIOS displaying a copyright of 2009, 6 GB RAM, and it boots in probably
    > 15 seconds; Ubuntu 22.04 (Jammy Jellyfish) and runs MythTV v31 quite
    > fine.
    KM> Yeah, SSD does wonders. If I'm gonna keep using this durn Fedora
    KM> it'll need to get one, because it's a good five minutes from
    KM> power on to usable desktop. Tho a lot of that is gotta go check
    KM> for updates BEFORE it'll do anything else, and updates are so
    KM> freakin' slow via Discover that I do it via CLI instead.

    It's because of Fedora!! (I use Ubuntu and there is a bit of friendly rivalry between distributions. MythTV originally required Ubuntu and
    that's why I started with Ubuntu -- no real reason for me to change.)

    LOL. Yeah, Fedora is not my favorite, but I like it better than Ubuntu.
    Then again, I like being hit on the head better than Ubuntu. :P~

    Just happened to be what was handy when I needed one (the vidcard
    presently in Fireball won't speak to PCLOS, which runs rings around
    EVERY other distro).

    This may be helpful: https://itsfoss.com/long-shutdown-linux/
    I know you said boot but may have some clues as to what to look for.

    Nope, doesn't have shutdown issues... the problem is the check for
    updates, plus it's just slow.


    > KM> Picky, picky!! Well, the driver didn't change so why it worked
    > KM> ONCE but then never again is a total mystery. Mind you this was
    > KM> ONCE and then never again on the SAME DAY with nothing between
    > KM> but a restart. Power down did not fix.
    > Booting killed it! Your WiFi dongle needed the generic driver which you
    > covered up with the new one! (semi-joking)
    KM> No, this was onboard wifi.... it's a laptop....

    Still could be a driver issue. Your restart could have finished
    installing an update which broke the WiFi. I (and others) seem to be

    Wary Puppy is monolithic, there were no updates. The one I have to hand
    is dated 2012 but this was a couple years before that.

    having an issue something in the latest kernel (?) 6.2.0-26-generic
    seems to be causing some weird issues with PulseAudio -- my USB headset

    Oh, PulseAudio, the swearing I've heard... I guess it's better now but
    it used to break just about anything at random.

    killed Firefox (!) -- oddly Firefox now works with the headset unplugged (there were some strange subdirs that seem to verify), read yesterday someone's Bluetooth isn't working and seems to be caused by the kernel
    update (at least one other person with the Bluetootk issue). Can you
    roll back to a previous version of GRUB to see if your WiFi works?

    Well, if Puppy was still installed on that system... Puppy doesn't work
    like other linux, it works more like a VM. The whole thing loads into
    RAM. I'm not sure it even used GRUB.

    > > .. You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light ý, then you
    nergy
    > KM> <snork>
    > What happened to my 'squared' character?!
    KM> Some people square the circle. You circled the dra-- er, square. <g>

    Who said we wouldn't use algebra when we grew up?!

    That's geometry, not algebra!

    Besides, first we'd have to grow up.


    .. Wondered why music coming from printer. Apparently paper was jamming.


    Printers have done that, but nothing like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCCXRerqaJI

    Best comment:
    "You know you're doing good in life when your musical instrument has a dedicated emergency stop button"
    RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS Hollywood, Ca www.techware2k.com

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  • From Barry Martin@454:1/1 to Ky Moffet on Sun Aug 27 10:55:00 2023

    Hi Ky!

    KM> Were those the fanless all-in-one? Have personally seen one of
    KM> those catch fire...
    So you're indicating they ran a little hot?! Yes, these were all-in-
    A lot hot. Have seen one catch fire and another that smoked...

    Which is why havign fire extinguishes handy is a good idea!


    ones; I think the power supply was encased in epoxy; maybe the
    motherboard -- for heatsink?? Mainly recalling it was a good computer
    just not a good fit for me as I liked to go inside and improve/upgrade.
    From what I hear performance was really not very good, not least
    because of thermal throttling. I guess it was better than the
    previous Macs, but that's not saying much. Poor math processing,
    slow bus, slow hard drive....

    I never actually played with one beyond the basics: at the time it
    seemed like the customers knew they wanted one and sometimes the hardest decision they had was what colour. The only person I knew who had one
    or at least an Apple was a coworker in the department who mostly used
    hers for word processing.


    > Your 'different inside' comment reminded me of why I never bought a Dell
    > computer when I was buying refurbished computers: I never could get a
    > detailed answer on what was inside. I don't recall if down to the
    KM> Um... open it up and look. :)
    Well the problem would be I would need to buy it and then open it up to
    see what it was made of.
    No, no, no, ask the vendor to....

    I had thought of that but at the time didn't, or maybe did once or twice
    but didn't receive a satisfactory answer -- decades ago. I think there
    was also a timing problem: the 'today-only' sale. ...Who did the 3-hour
    sales? Item A was 9 to noon, Item B noon to 3... I know a couple of
    times something I wanted was on sale starting at 8 p.m. my time.


    KM> I don't know what they did before about 2000, but I've had
    KM> several desktop Dells fall on my head since then. All you need do
    KM> is pull on the latch (they have a latched side or top panel, not
    KM> screws) and take a look.
    Probably right on the easy-opening: I've got some IBMs/Lenovo's here
    which do the same: I know one has a single latch-button in the rear of
    the top cover which inside connects to a Y-shaped brackets which somehow opens latches on sides. Most of the others simply have a button on each side to unlatch. (Maybe the one-button thing was because he broke his
    arm and couldn't do two buttons at the same time, or was showing off for
    a machanical award!)
    Hahaha... these have a handle. Very easy.

    Yup: and some vendors are picked up on that tool-less concept.
    Sometimes doesn't quite work after a few years: go in to replace and the plastic has become brittle. (I don't recall that kind of a problem with IBM/Lenovo.)


    KM> What the mainboard offers depends on which form factor and which
    KM> grade.
    That was the details I couldn't get (and I'm talking pre-2000 still).
    The selling info would say "Dell Model 1234-C" but go to look that up
    and I oculd only get to what options it could come with, so might come
    with a 240W PSU or a a 750W one or somewhere in-between. Base of 8 GB
    RAM, but no indication of expansion possibilities nor available slots.
    The pre-2000 Dells I'd seen were not very good. All the ones that
    came thru the User Grope got junked. So I don't think you missed
    much.

    In that case that's good!


    In that era, my observation (from a couple hundred donations that
    were largely any brand you can name) was that HPs were a little
    better performing and more stable (as they were built for the
    business market), but if you wanted a prebuilt that was at all
    flexible and wasn't complete junk, Gateway was the only way to
    go. The parts were largely seconds but all pretty standard; once
    they got to a P-II tower you could upgrade them like any clone
    system. I have a PII-800 Gateway in the basement... works fine,
    has 9 slots and all of 'em full of something... just not useful
    in the modern era, tho it does have a TV capture card.

    Too bad that capture card is NTSC! (For the non-nerds: NTSC is the old
    analog TV format; ATSC is the current digital format.)

    There was a Gateway store locally -- black and white cow splotches on
    the eiter ouside of the building -- definitely noticed driving by!
    Building or at least where the Gateway building now is now Fortress
    Bank: brick and relatively solid/sturdy looking on the outside.


    So I ended up refurbing the HPs and Gateways, but everything else
    was stripped for parts. Micron and Packard Smell were such crap
    they got gutted by default, and I don't think I ever saw a
    working Dell.

    I was able to pick up a few HPs, Compaqs, and Packard Bells from the
    store as the department manager would sometimes give me a pretty decent discount on returned computers. Through very limited personal
    experience it did seem the PBs weren't all that great -- name probably
    lasted longer than the computer.


    Good news: it's well past 2000 and apparently the information is more readily available now.
    Woah! Who would have guessed??!

    <shrub> Maybe a lot of complaints and lost sales because of a lack of information?!



    Heat can create strange issues! (Tangent) It's been hot and humid here
    this week -- air temperatures approaching 100ø (might be a degree or two over that this afternoon or tomorrow). I've got two Raspberry Pi's in a closet - both in metal cases with heat sink 'feet' to the motherbaord.
    One has a fan, one doesn't. (Built/installed at two different times.)
    The one without the fan started acting up lately: the closet isn't that
    hot but apparently with lack of circulation... Contactless thermal
    probe: yup: fanless case about 10ø hotter than the fan case, plus the software report of the processor's temperature was 10-15ø warmer on the fanless one.
    Well, now you know the limits of Pi heat tolerance....

    What's 'funny' is (IIRC) the processor will tolerate to 80C and it was running about 20 cooler. Of course just because the ARM processor will
    run at 80C doesn't mean the rest of the unit will!

    Since swapping with the Pi with the case and fan no heat-related issues AFAICT: I have been running a script periodically which probes the Pi's
    to monitor for various issues. Do have the occasional inconsistent
    quirk which is spread amongst the Pi's, not restricted the 'new' one with
    the added fan.



    KM> Lightfoot is a Quad-core 3GHz with onboard everything, 3 PCIe and
    KM> one PCI slot. 4 RAM slots. It came with some random vidcard along
    KM> with the onboard video. It is the cheap consumer model.

    KM> Here's the same board:
    KM> https://www.ebay.com/p/98189154
    KM> This is the cheap consumer board, not expected to work hard for a
    KM> living.
    Poor thing wouldn't last long here! The eBay site didn't have the specs
    but took me a couple of clicks to get to a site with specifications. To
    me that's acceptable' back in the old days (my pre-2000 buy refurbished)
    I couldn't get the to specs. Nice to see they've changed!
    Yeah, back then if you didn't find it published in an ad or
    review, you couldn't find it at all. Computer Shopper was our
    FRIEND!

    <chuckle> Yup! ...I still keep on the hard drive lots of 'trivia' for
    my various motherboards/computers/daughtercards/etc.: have found
    sometimes I was able to find something and then try to refind it later
    and can't. At least if I have it on the hard drive it's somewhat more restricted as to where to look.


    Oh, someone is digitizing a whole collection of Computer Shopper
    mags, what a huge project!
    http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/5543

    Jaw-dropping wow. I've got a legal-page-sized flatbed scanner here and scanning twenty pages seems like an all-day project. OK, so probably
    closed to an hour but still -- imagine scanning a whole magazine, but
    first having to disassemble ==> heat gun unglueing.


    Kind of a shame to cut them up for scanning, but at least they'll
    be preserved, and available for old fogeys who want to brag about
    how much we used to spend on computer hardware. <g>

    Cutting is sort of a requirment else the portion near the center doesn't
    image properly. Almost not a choice. And as for costs: $2000 for my
    DEC Rainbow 100 with a whopping 768 MB RAM, the 5" floppies cost $50
    for a box of ten because they were RX50 format (400 KB instead of 360).
    A 1 MB hard drive would have cost be just under $1,000. Eventually
    'had' to get a UPS because the apartment complex and extended
    neighbourhood would randomly loose power: bad connection or something somewhere. Power company did actively look for the problem because it
    didn't make them look good; eventually fixed. Anyway, my 800W UPS cost
    $800 -- a dollar a watt.

    People now would look at us like we were out of our minds to pay those
    prices -- that's what they were. I remember I was working in the
    computer department of the store and a new (want to say) IBM computer
    came in -- I scanned the bar code and it came up around $1000 -- can't possibly be right!! Flagged the box, reported it to the department
    manager: nope: that's the right price. He also made the comment it was
    going to be impossible to sell the current units because they had so
    much less power/capabilities and were oriced so much more.



    KM> And I have three Optiplex 9010 minis. This is a compact case that
    KM> can sit desktop or tower. These came with i7-3770 CPUs. There is
    KM> onboard video but they also came with a fairly decent vidcard
    KM> (Radeon R7 350X 4GB). 1-PCIe16 1-PCIe4. 4 RAM slots, max 32GB.
    KM> These were designed as business units.
    Case is suit-and-tie as opposed to khakis! <g> ...I tend to go for 'overbuilt' so it will last. I tend to let the parts 'roll downhill":
    I'll build myself a brand-new unit for myself, backend -- what was
    replaced (eventually) goes to replace the next 'level', that unit
    eventually replaces something else.... 'Bottom level' sometimes left as
    a spare, sometimes disassembled for parts (extreme example: a Pentium
    unit might have a darn good video card which could be used in a
    mid-level build).
    Yeah, if I'm going for an everyday system that I actually spend
    money on, I want something with future legs.

    Right. I try to buy/build a system which will be able to take on the
    future. Might need to add a part or two so let's have some free
    expansion slots.....


    But for the one that sits over yonder and plays Youtube vids all
    day, whatever works is fine.

    I'm not all that into on-line videos -- nothing wrong with them, just
    not for me. I have watched how-to's and they've helped make sense of text-based instructions. Have watched some shows and yes even the
    occasional cute animal video,


    KM> I don't know about the mini Optiplex pinout but the PSU is a long
    KM> narrow thing like a server PSU. The other drawback is that there
    KM> is only room for one 3.5" HD or two 2.5", but it's easy enough to
    KM> get to. The larger size Optiplex (there are three sizes, one is
    KM> smaller yet) may have a standard PSU and more slots and bays, I
    KM> haven't checked.
    Yes, I have an older computer which comes in three 'flavours': the one I have is a 'CMT' -- Convertible Mini Tower ==> upright or flat. Another version is a slimline -- suppose nice if room is at a premium but a PITA
    to easily swap parts -- daughtercards have to be half-height! I've forgotten what the third option was.
    This used to be a common thing because business wanted the
    options.

    Room was sometimes at a premium. Personally I prefer not to have the
    slimline version because it restricts me to what's available in short daughtercards. In a business envirnoment I wouldn't care as repair is
    someone else's problem!

    Now as for the desktop vs. tower format here - depends on where the
    computer is being located. Some are in the VCR cubby hole some want
    desktop format, others I want tower due to space issues.



    KM> Well, this is the larger version of the same board:
    KM> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813186233
    KM> main difference is having two PCI slots and more SATA ports.
    More is sometimes better, but as Newegg is out of stock doesn't matter!
    And if I'm going to buy a naked motherboard, it'll be something I
    can work with.

    Right. As indicated somewhere above the ability to insert a new part is helpful. I'd rather add a hard drive so have two than copy the contents
    of the old one to the new one and swap.


    KM> The other Repurposed NameBrand Core in my Closet is Fireball, who
    KM> started life as a Lenovo Thinkstation S30. This is a very good
    KM> quality X79 mainboard that takes a midrange i7 or Xeon. 3-PCIe16,
    KM> 1-PCIe4, 1-PCI, 8 RAM slots (192GB max capacity, and can use the
    KM> cheaper server RAM) and without opening it up to look I think it
    KM> has 6 SATA and 4 SAS ports. However I would strongly recommend
    KM> sticking to one that comes with its original case, because this
    KM> will save you a lot of swearing as you figure out all the
    KM> oddities of the front panel and USB connections (one of which
    KM> needs an extra jumper shorted to work properly).
    Yup: reminds me of a nice HP (maybe Compaq) case I had gutted and
    Oh, I forgot, I also have Xorro, formerly Jerry Pournelle's
    "Regina". Dual Xeon 750MHz, Compaq workstation. Weighs 57 pounds.

    Bet that one doesn't get moved too often!


    updated. Everything was nice until got to the DVD - the original CD
    must have had a bracket or something as the DVD had problems with the opening of the front panel flap, or opened but the try didn't come out
    far enough... something.
    Yeah, that was a big issue with the prebuilt cases. Lots of
    optical and floppy drives with no faceplate but an integrated
    slot in the front of the case. Which often meant a weird mount.

    The good news here is I've been doing less and less with video disks so
    having the reader/writer built-in has become less of an issue. Do use
    an external device for the occasional need.



    > changed, but at the time turned me off to Dells for personal use: I'm
    > not going to buy something if I don't know if I can do the usual
    > eventual upgrade.
    KM> What sort of upgrade? I looked inside my Dells, saw that they
    KM> were already maxed out for CPU, and at a minimal cost I maxed out
    KM> the RAM. They are now as upgraded as they get. In this era of
    KM> external drives and networked storage, I no longer feel the need
    KM> to put six hard drives inside every case. In fact Silver has none
    KM> inside the case; they're all in the hotswap bays. :)
    LIS this was twenty-thirty years ago and appears the information is
    readily available now. Problem is that little bit of secretative soured
    my thinking of them as far as purchasing refurbished. Do think they're good, just not being able to get the information I needed. As noted somewhere above, appears that has changed. ...OTOH, now I 'roll down'
    my motherboards, etc., so not sure I need to buy an entire unit or motherboard.
    Yeah, when you've got plenty it's not an issue. The three
    Optiplex fell on my head (discards from my sister's office) so
    might as well use 'em. Part of why Lightfoot got sent back to the
    Closet -- didn't need a quad-core for misc. duties when I had an
    i7.

    I've parted a few of the old ones -- what the heck am I going to do with
    an AGP video card with VGA out?!



    KM> I may eventually get Fireball a faster CPU (it has whatever Xeon
    KM> was available for $20, or was it $5... wasn't very much), as
    KM> what's in it is toward the lower end. However it's
    KM> performance-equivalent to Silver (i7-4820k) as it is. It already
    KM> has 64GB RAM, filched from the server that's being gradually
    KM> gutted for parts.
    Upgrading the RAM might be a significant speed increase. RAM plus CPU
    might be a Memorex Moment (remember the old ads for the cassette tape
    with the guy sitting in front of his speakers and the gale-force wind?!).
    The ONLY thing that ever reaches above 32GB RAM is Chrome, which
    is a hog like no other. So 64GB is more than enough. I'd have to
    actually *shudder* buy 32GB and 16GB sticks to upgrade it to
    192GB (it needs to be some weird combo for 8 slots) which
    presently doesn't seem worthwhile. Tho server RAM is much cheaper
    than desktop RAM.

    My MythTV server has 32 GB or RAM and it seems more than sufficient.
    This computer (the one I'm on now) has 64 GB -- seems to be overkill but
    wasn't sure how much would be needed by the Virtual Machines -- actually running the VMs on a NVMe worked better.


    Running off a SSD will really do an increase!
    Yeah, would be helpful.

    For the 'heavy duty' machines I've been running the OS on a SSD and
    keeping the data on a hard drive. Probably going a bit Old School as
    seems like would be easier to recover data from metal, or at least keep
    the OS separate from the 'library' ==> if the SSD/OS has issues I can
    probably boot from a USB stick and still look at the data drive.


    Should buy a bunch of small ones for this sort of thing, but
    lightly used 2.5" WD Blacks are about $5 each on eBay.... (most
    have under 10k hours and many under 3k hours).

    Sounds like a plan!


    KM> Would have had to tear out metal. The joys of pop rivets.
    Sort of reminds me a friend's parents' TV I repaired years ago: they'd sometimes get a 2" wide picture on the CRT (told ya it was years ago!) - smack it on the side of the cabinet and usually worked again. I bought
    the schematic (probably Sam's Photofact), tracked down the problem to a
    bad solder joint. So resolder, right? Suuuure: the joint right under a metal bar and so couldn't quite get my soldering iron in. Was able to
    bend or cut the bar (forgot which), do the resoldering - taa-daa!
    How to solder: First, get hammer...

    Just about! Good news: I fixed the TV. :)


    > Sort of reminds me of a UPS I have. Decent one still. To replace the
    > two batteries take the insides out -- and greeted by a cage securely
    > holding the batteries inside and the UPS motherboard on top.
    > Essentially there is no way to get to the batteries without taking the
    > motherboard apart, which sounds like a simple step but is anything but.
    KM> Ugh.
    Right. Recall numerous comments on great UPS except for the problem
    with replacing batteries. Batteries need to be replaced -- fact. Send
    in for replacement -- well, you're either without a UPS during the
    repeir or have bought a replacement UPS and so have an extra. Dumb on
    the manufacturer's part. Even if someone is afraid to do their own
    battery replacement of a normal unit they could bring it in to some
    place like BatteriesPlus to have them do the swap, but not with this
    unit!
    I was going to do it for the ones I have but opened one up and
    said.. uh. Never mind. They have two inside.

    To me was a stupid design, just inviting jumping to a different brand.



    KM> I don't bother doing battery swaps on modern UPSs. The battery is
    KM> $89 and the whole durn unit is $99 at Costco and comes with a 2
    KM> year warranty by Costco, which is a lot better than the
    KM> replacement battery.
    Hmmm... The RBC17-equivalents I've been getting are around $30 and the
    UPSs starting $160. I'm either shopping at the wrong places or
    different requirements!
    APC, evidently. These are Cyberpower, aka "what Costco has".

    Some are APC; one was an old Energizer-branded, Got two old-old Belkins; probably some other brands. The big detail for me was they all use the
    same battery so I can have a couple/few spare batteries on hand for
    immediate swap. Yeah: generally wait until they die before replacing.



    > KM> I have a G4 of the silver tower era -- it's much less awful, tho
    > KM> was highly amused to discover that everything inside, except for
    > KM> the mainboard and CPU, is an off the shelf PC part. At some point
    > KM> I borrowed the vidcard and have no idea if it got its original
    > KM> back, but it works. Also gave it RAM from the PC drawer, and an
    > KM> IDE SSD. Performance is now much better. Someone paid $3,999.99
    > KM> for it in 2000... at the time it was performance-equivalent to a
    > KM> P2-500 from 1998 that sold for $600.
    > Paying for the name are we?! I've upgraded several old computers with
    KM> Apparently. :/ It came with all sorts of software (Photoshop
    KM> etc.) but far as I can tell it was never used.
    Maybe was being used as a spare. Maybe the company buying them found it cheaper to buy 500 computers when they only needed 450: I used to work
    Nope, this was some old guy's personal system, forget where I
    found that but not corporate. The receipt is still on the HD.

    Somebody either had money to burn or liked the idea of a money-laundered component!


    > SSDs and it's amazing how fast they boot and react! I have one with a
    > BIOS displaying a copyright of 2009, 6 GB RAM, and it boots in probably
    > 15 seconds; Ubuntu 22.04 (Jammy Jellyfish) and runs MythTV v31 quite
    > fine.
    KM> Yeah, SSD does wonders. If I'm gonna keep using this durn Fedora
    KM> it'll need to get one, because it's a good five minutes from
    KM> power on to usable desktop. Tho a lot of that is gotta go check
    KM> for updates BEFORE it'll do anything else, and updates are so
    KM> freakin' slow via Discover that I do it via CLI instead.
    It's because of Fedora!! (I use Ubuntu and there is a bit of friendly rivalry between distributions. MythTV originally required Ubuntu and
    that's why I started with Ubuntu -- no real reason for me to change.)
    LOL. Yeah, Fedora is not my favorite, but I like it better than
    Ubuntu. Then again, I like being hit on the head better than
    Ubuntu. :P~

    Feels so goooood! <g> LIS some time back I got started with Ubuntu
    because it was base for MythBuntu, which eventually detached itself from
    being a separate OS+Utility in one to an application -- let the Ubuntu
    folks worry about the OS stuff! If it wasn't for that I don't know
    which flavour of Linux I would be using.


    This may be helpful: https://itsfoss.com/long-shutdown-linux/
    I know you said boot but may have some clues as to what to look for.
    Nope, doesn't have shutdown issues... the problem is the check
    for updates, plus it's just slow.

    Umm, turn off the 'check for updates at boot' option. I don't know if
    that's a thing -- seems not logical.


    > KM> Picky, picky!! Well, the driver didn't change so why it worked
    > KM> ONCE but then never again is a total mystery. Mind you this was
    > KM> ONCE and then never again on the SAME DAY with nothing between
    > KM> but a restart. Power down did not fix.
    > Booting killed it! Your WiFi dongle needed the generic driver which you
    > covered up with the new one! (semi-joking)
    KM> No, this was onboard wifi.... it's a laptop....
    Still could be a driver issue. Your restart could have finished
    installing an update which broke the WiFi. I (and others) seem to be
    Wary Puppy is monolithic, there were no updates. The one I have
    to hand is dated 2012 but this was a couple years before that.

    Anything looking at a no-longer-existant site? I'm thinking of how
    X-10.com went bye-bye and that killed the home automation software until
    some figured out a patch. What the problem was was on starting the X10 software it would call the .com site to verify the software license was
    valid. Site not answering, no way to verify the license so things
    stopped. Probably not all all your WiFi problem, but thinking may be a potential clue.


    having an issue something in the latest kernel (?) 6.2.0-26-generic
    seems to be causing some weird issues with PulseAudio -- my USB headset
    Oh, PulseAudio, the swearing I've heard... I guess it's better
    now but it used to break just about anything at random.

    It seems like it was used too much for the problems it gave. I have run
    into problems with PulseAudio in years past. More using it because it (semi)works and is default -- I don't know how and don't have the time to
    use something different on something I don't use all that much. At this
    point Firefox is more important than the headset.


    killed Firefox (!) -- oddly Firefox now works with the headset unplugged (there were some strange subdirs that seem to verify), read yesterday someone's Bluetooth isn't working and seems to be caused by the kernel update (at least one other person with the Bluetootk issue). Can you
    roll back to a previous version of GRUB to see if your WiFi works?
    Well, if Puppy was still installed on that system... Puppy
    doesn't work like other linux, it works more like a VM. The whole
    thing loads into RAM. I'm not sure it even used GRUB.

    Probbaly doesn't need to.


    > > .. You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light ý, then
    o

    nergy
    > KM> <snork>
    > What happened to my 'squared' character?!
    KM> Some people square the circle. You circled the dra-- er, square. <g> Who said we wouldn't use algebra when we grew up?!
    That's geometry, not algebra!

    See? It's been so long I don't remember what the stuff is called!


    Besides, first we'd have to grow up.

    Pbbbt!!


    .. Wondered why music coming from printer. Apparently paper was jamming.
    Printers have done that, but nothing like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCCXRerqaJI

    Quite an ensemble! I'd be lucky to do the opening of Beethoven's Fifth
    (and probably get drive to drink and I rarely drink).


    BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET



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