• Lemmings game for DOS

    From Nightfox@21:1/137 to All on Mon Oct 30 16:49:34 2023
    In the past couple years, I've tried to play Lemmings for DOS within DOSemu (on Windows), but to me the colors look a bit off. It doesn't look quite the same as I remember playing it back in the early 90s. I was using the VGA version. I've even seen Lemmings for DOS available to play on some web sites that have old DOS games playable in a web browser via emulation (I think they use some portable version of DOSBox), and it looks wrong to me there too. It makes me wonder, does anyone know if there are some settings you need to change for DOSBox for Lemmings to look correct?

    Nightfox
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  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Nightfox on Tue Oct 31 04:21:06 2023
    In the past couple years, I've tried to play Lemmings for DOS within DOSemu (on Windows), but to me the colors look a bit off. It doesn't
    look quite the same as I remember playing it back in the early 90s. I
    was using the VGA version. I've even seen Lemmings for DOS available to play on some web sites that have old DOS games playable in a web browser via emulation (I think they use some portable version of DOSBox), and it looks wrong to me there too. It makes me wonder, does anyone know if there are some settings you need to change for DOSBox for Lemmings to
    look correct?

    I remember that when I switched from Amiga to PC, I had one version of Lemmings installed on my machine but it was ugly shit comparing to Amiga version, thus if this is more about Lemmings than MSDOS proven here, I recommend checking Amiga emulator for a real Lemmings entertainment.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to hollowone on Tue Oct 31 09:00:24 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: hollowone to Nightfox on Tue Oct 31 2023 04:21 am

    I remember that when I switched from Amiga to PC, I had one version of Lemmings installed on my machine but it was ugly shit comparing to Amiga version, thus if this is more about Lemmings than MSDOS proven here, I recommend checking Amiga emulator for a real Lemmings entertainment.

    This is just about the DOS version - I played it on an actual DOS PC in the early 90s and I remember it looking better than it looks when I tried running it in DOSemu. I've never played the Amiga version. But maybe an Amiga emulator with Lemmings would be worth checking into, out of curiosity.

    Nightfox
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  • From Bob Worm@21:1/205 to Nightfox on Tue Oct 31 19:49:36 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Nightfox to hollowone on Tue Oct 31 2023 09:00:24

    Hi, Nightfox.

    This is just about the DOS version - I played it on an actual DOS PC in the early 90s and I remember it looking better than it looks when I tried running it in DOSemu.

    Out of interest what looks different about it?

    When I told a friend about my Acorn restoration efforts he immediately asked what the end goal of the project was - after I'd told him he sounded "just like my wife" I reluctantly said "I'll know it's been successful when it runs Lemmings". For what it's worth I thought the Acorn version looked "funny" compared to the DOS version I used in my teens. I'm sure it doesn't help in my case that it's being stretched from 4:3 into widescreen.

    I definitely haven't finished restoring the Acorn, either...

    BobW
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Bob Worm on Tue Oct 31 13:28:33 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Bob Worm to Nightfox on Tue Oct 31 2023 07:49 pm

    This is just about the DOS version - I played it on an actual DOS PC in the
    early 90s and I remember it looking better than it looks when I tried
    running it in DOSemu.

    Out of interest what looks different about it?

    The colors look wrong in some places. The main menu, for instance, has a weird looking background that looks almost like static (white splotches that look a bit random). And when playing a level, the menu at the bottom has a background for each item that also doesn't look right as far as the colors used.

    Nightfox
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Bob Worm on Tue Oct 31 13:30:10 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Bob Worm to Nightfox on Tue Oct 31 2023 07:49 pm

    This is just about the DOS version - I played it on an actual DOS PC in the
    early 90s and I remember it looking better than it looks when I tried
    running it in DOSemu.

    Out of interest what looks different about it?

    If you go here, this site allows you to play it online in a web browser - It somehow uses DOSBox via the web, and it looks wrong there:

    https://shorturl.at/nDEH9

    Full URL: https://playclassic.games/games/puzzle-solving-dos-games-online/play-lemmings-o nline/

    Nightfox
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  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Nightfox on Tue Oct 31 14:03:04 2023
    This is just about the DOS version - I played it on an actual DOS PC in the early 90s and I remember it looking better than it looks when I
    tried running it in DOSemu. I've never played the Amiga version. But maybe an Amiga emulator with Lemmings would be worth checking into, out
    of curiosity.


    Please do, on Amiga both hires (640x256) and lowres (320x256) supported up to 32 indexed colors out of what MCGA (More 13h) could offer in the PC VGA world.

    In the PC all the hi-res stuff (640x480) had only 16 colors in fixed palette + HW hacking so what I remember was stuff visually very... dithered comparing to colors of Amiga version. But both are blurred childhood memories, maybe I also should launch both side by side to compare.

    But where Amiga for sure excelled in the prime time era of the game is audio. 4channel digitalized audio Amiga offered out of the box started matching slightly with Sounds Blaster and GUS, but that became mainstream right after C= collapsed in 94. In 90-92 when Lemmings were born, audio on Amiga was superior to anything in home computing and you should still hear that. Unless emulators channel audio data streams to modern HW equally as a part of their implementation.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to hollowone on Tue Oct 31 14:59:45 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: hollowone to Nightfox on Tue Oct 31 2023 02:03 pm

    This is just about the DOS version - I played it on an actual DOS PC in
    the early 90s and I remember it looking better than it looks when I tried
    running it in DOSemu. I've never played the Amiga version. But maybe an
    Amiga emulator with Lemmings would be worth checking into, out of
    curiosity.

    Please do, on Amiga both hires (640x256) and lowres (320x256) supported up to 32 indexed colors out of what MCGA (More 13h) could offer in the PC VGA world.

    In the PC all the hi-res stuff (640x480) had only 16 colors in fixed palette + HW hacking so what I remember was stuff visually very... dithered comparing to colors of Amiga version. But both are blurred childhood memories, maybe I also should launch both side by side to compare.

    I remember EGA offering 16 colors and VGA offering up to 256 colors. At the time I thought the DOS VGA version looked pretty good. I wanted to play that version because that's what I used to always play, so ideally I'd like to find a way to play it (in an emulated DOS environment) where the colors aren't messed up. But I have heard the Amiga was for video and audio, at least until the early-mid 90s.

    Nightfox
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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to hollowone on Wed Nov 1 15:23:00 2023
    Please do, on Amiga both hires (640x256) and lowres (320x256) supported up to 32 indexed colors out of what MCGA (More 13h) could offer in the PC VGA world.

    In the PC all the hi-res stuff (640x480) had only 16 colors in fixed palette + HW hacking so what I remember was stuff visually very... dithered comparing to colors of Amiga version. But both are blurred

    Ponder, I only recall 640x480x16 being active for a relatively short time,
    one of the things that kept it hanging on was Win3.1x, the system colours
    were only 16. 640x480x256 was far more common though. But at this point I don't remember when lemmings arrived, only that I wasn't interested in it.

    Spec


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  • From Bob Worm@21:1/205 to hollowone on Wed Nov 1 08:48:26 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: hollowone to Nightfox on Tue Oct 31 2023 14:03:04

    Hi, hollowone.

    In the PC all the hi-res stuff (640x480) had only 16 colors in fixed palette

    I know in the 320x200 16 colour modes you were stuck with a fixed palette (on EGA at least, some kind of CGA compatibility thing) but I thought VGA 640x480 had configurable palettes?

    Unless you're running under Windows, you're kind of knackered then.

    The more I look at Amiga these days the more I feel like I missed out by not having one. Way ahead of its time and seemingly built with coders in mind...

    BobW
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Bob Worm on Wed Nov 1 08:22:46 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Bob Worm to hollowone on Wed Nov 01 2023 08:48 am

    The more I look at Amiga these days the more I feel like I missed out by not having one. Way ahead of its time and seemingly built with coders in mind...

    I've had that thought too. I never had an Amiga, but it seems it would have been fun to have one. Sometimes I feel like it's a bit sad that the more advanced stuff sometimes doesn't continue on. It sounds like PCs ended up catching up and superceding Amiga eventually though.

    Nightfox
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  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Nightfox on Wed Nov 1 10:24:23 2023
    I remember EGA offering 16 colors and VGA offering up to 256 colors. At

    256 colors in VGA were available only in so called MCGA mode (Mode 13h in the assembly, if you were a coder). That was 320x200 and if the video card registers were hacked then up to 380x240 or something similar (so called ModeX). Last were extensively used by Quake in the late 90s, not commonly used in commercial games before. Most games to achieve maximum color and compatibilities in the DOS era used VGA's low-res mode I described above.

    SVGA came with higher resolutions and colors but that wasn't heavily adopted until Windows games came in.

    HiRes in VGA (640x480) was 16 colors too as maximum and I remember all the menus in Lemmings used this mode. I don't remember if game was hi-res VGA or low-res VGA though. if low-rest then technically it offered 256 colors which would be superior to Amiga up until Amiga 1200 with AGA chipset that offered the same. All Amigas with ECS/OCS chipset for graphics (Amiga 500, 600, most commonly used for gaming in Europe) had 32 colors as max in standard modes and 4092 simultaneously in modes that were mode dedicated to still graphics rather dynamic/real time animation and sprites.

    There was much more possibility to hack Amigas dedicated chipset to play or simulate more colors and that's why every Amigan between 1986 and 1994 laughed at PC, basically speaking.

    Not that I'd now.. history showed that dedicated chipsets had no chance vs open architecture of PC, significantly lowering prices in the 90s. It killed Atari, C=, Almost killed Apple... so yeah.. who's laughing now..

    But still yeah, there was a moment of history that Amiga had an architecture that PC started having as mainstream maybe in 98+

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Spectre on Wed Nov 1 10:26:20 2023
    Ponder, I only recall 640x480x16 being active for a relatively short
    time, one of the things that kept it hanging on was Win3.1x, the system colours were only 16. 640x480x256 was far more common though. But at
    this point I don't remember when lemmings arrived, only that I wasn't interested in it.

    That is what I already explained one post before. What you refer to is (S)VGA set of cards. But not so many games in DOS adopted them before 1995 and it was a mainstream choice in win9x era of gaming.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Bob Worm on Wed Nov 1 10:29:19 2023
    I know in the 320x200 16 colour modes you were stuck with a fixed
    palette (on EGA at least, some kind of CGA compatibility thing) but I thought VGA 640x480 had configurable palettes?

    Not in VGA card. SVGA offered that for the first time with video modes starting from 100h in the int 10h VGA interrupt list (assembly level explanation). Core VGA card offered that only in low res (MCGA or ModeX)

    Check wikipedia entry on VGA, it explains it all:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/video_graphics_array

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Nightfox on Wed Nov 1 10:31:11 2023
    I've had that thought too. I never had an Amiga, but it seems it would have been fun to have one. Sometimes I feel like it's a bit sad that
    the more advanced stuff sometimes doesn't continue on. It sounds like
    PCs ended up catching up and superceding Amiga eventually though.

    Unfortunately Amiga (through Commodore) was doomed to fail on way too many fronts. We (the users of that computer) didn't see that clearly in 1994 and the fandom is still strong.. but it was doomed nevertheless.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Thu Nov 2 04:01:00 2023
    I've had that thought too. I never had an Amiga, but it seems it would have been fun to have one. Sometimes I feel like it's a bit sad that the more advanced stuff sometimes doesn't continue on. It sounds like PCs ended up catching up and superceding Amiga eventually though.

    The PC got by, by being the master of nothing. It was a workhorse that could
    do many things reasonably well or well, not neccesarily good. The
    architecture left it open for any kind of video standard to come long later
    and just get shoehorned into the system, much the same goes for sound too.
    Not to mention you had corporates giving the whole thing economy of scale,
    and all that equipment used to be worth more and filtered out into the second hand market.

    Things, like the Amiga, IIgs were a little hamstrung in that regard, they
    were good/great for their time, but the abilities they had were it, there was nowhere to go forward from there unless you deliver a whole new machine.

    Spec


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  • From Bob Worm@21:1/205 to hollowone on Wed Nov 1 23:17:24 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: hollowone to Bob Worm on Wed Nov 01 2023 10:29:19

    Hi, hollowone.

    I know in the 320x200 16 colour modes you were stuck with a fixed palette (on EGA at least, some kind of CGA compatibility thing) but I thought VGA 640x480 had configurable palettes?

    Not in VGA card. SVGA offered that for the first time with video modes starting from 100h in the int 10h VGA interrupt list (assembly level explanation). Core VGA card offered that only in low res (MCGA or ModeX)

    Check wikipedia entry on VGA, it explains it all:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/video_graphics_array

    That article says:

    "The 640 x 480 16-color and 320 x 200 256-color modes had fully redefinable palettes, with each entry selected from an 18-bit (262,144-color) gamut"

    Standard VGA 640 x 480 16 colour is mode 12h, apparently the palette calls are the same as 13h even if the display memory works differently.

    BobW
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  • From Jagossel@21:1/194 to Nightfox on Thu Nov 2 02:00:59 2023
    Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Nightfox to All on Mon Oct 30 2023 04:49 pm

    In the past couple years, I've tried to play Lemmings for DOS within DOSemu Windows), but to me the colors look a bit off. It doesn't look quite the sa as I remember playing it back in the early 90s. I was using the VGA version I've even seen Lemmings for DOS available to play on some web sites that hav old DOS games playable in a web browser via emulation (I think they use some portable version of DOSBox), and it looks wrong to me there too. It makes m wonder, does anyone know if there are some settings you need to change for DOSBox for Lemmings to look correct?

    I am having a difficult time finding a legit cooy of Lemmings (trying to stear clear of abandonware sites). Wish I can help you out there.
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  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Bob Worm on Thu Nov 2 00:18:17 2023
    "The 640 x 480 16-color and 320 x 200 256-color modes had fully redefinable palettes, with each entry selected from an 18-bit (262,144-color) gamut"

    That's interesting. I missed that detail. Back in the 90s I could consider myself the master of all gimmicks related to Mode 13h. I skipped the whole Mode 12h (hires) because of that 16 colors limit and SVGA was much more convenient already to provide the same hires with 256+ colors and backward compatibility how to treat it (indexed colors went through the same palette encoding and framebuffer was available at the same address, it was only bank-switched due to 64kB address space limitation in 16bit real mode under DOS. Then VESA 2.0 fixed it all with 32bit protected mode linear frame buffer for any supported resolution.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to hollowone on Fri Nov 3 00:24:00 2023
    That is what I already explained one post before. What you refer to is (S)VGA set of cards. But not so many games in DOS adopted them before 1995 and it was a mainstream choice in win9x era of gaming.

    Ponder... video wasn't my strong point back then, so its probably a mash of
    vga and svga my rose coloured glasses are remembering. The first things I
    can recall paying any attention to, because the GF of the time had access to them was Might & Magic 3, which I thought was VGA at 256... but appears to be MCGA... leisure suit larry 3 and Monkey Island 2 are the same so.. there we
    go.

    Probably accounts for why none of these scale very well when you try to
    plaster them across modern displays... not enough pixels in the originals to make it without becoming blocky and pixelated.

    Spec


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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Jagossel on Thu Nov 2 08:37:50 2023
    Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Jagossel to Nightfox on Thu Nov 02 2023 02:00 am

    I am having a difficult time finding a legit cooy of Lemmings (trying to stear clear of abandonware sites). Wish I can help you out there.

    I've seen web sites that let you play Lemmings and other old DOS games through a web browser. Somehow they have a way to run DOSBox through the web browser.

    Nightfox
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  • From Roon@21:4/148 to Jagossel on Thu Nov 2 21:35:54 2023
    Hello Jagossel,

    02 Nov 23 02:00, you wrote to Nightfox:

    In the past couple years, I've tried to play Lemmings for DOS
    within DOSemu Windows), but to me the colors look a bit off. It
    doesn't look quite the sa as I remember playing it back in the
    early 90s. I was using the VGA version I've even seen Lemmings for
    DOS available to play on some web sites that hav old DOS games
    playable in a web browser via emulation (I think they use
    some portable version of DOSBox), and it looks wrong to me there
    too. It makes m wonder, does anyone know if there are some
    settings you need to change for DOSBox for Lemmings to look
    correct?

    I am having a difficult time finding a legit cooy of Lemmings (trying
    to stear clear of abandonware sites). Wish I can help you out there.

    why don't you try it on bbses? i've found&downloaded quite a nice collection of old dos games from bbses.

    sadly i forgot to distribute them on my bbs, but i'll fix this mistake at a later point :)

    Regards,
    --
    dp

    telnet://bbs.roonsbbs.hu:1212 <<=-

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  • From Bob Worm@21:1/205 to hollowone on Thu Nov 2 19:53:03 2023
    Re: Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: hollowone to Bob Worm on Thu Nov 02 2023 00:18:17

    Hi, hollowone.

    Back in the 90s I could consider myself the master of all gimmicks
    related to Mode 13h. I skipped the whole Mode 12h (hires) because of
    that 16 colors limit and SVGA was much more convenient already to
    provide the same hires with 256+ colors and backward compatibility

    I only ever programmed for mode 13h, it just made everything so easy. I never got as far as framebuffers or anything remotely advanced, mainly because my GCSE exams started and upset the balance of priorities :)

    I'm not sure I'd have been able to figure out 12h at that point. Maybe I'll have a play in DOSbox later on...

    BobW
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to All on Sun Nov 26 15:29:26 2023
    Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Nightfox to All on Mon Oct 30 2023 04:49 pm

    In the past couple years, I've tried to play Lemmings for DOS within DOSemu (on Windows), but to me the colors look a bit off. It doesn't look quite the same as I remember playing it back in the early 90s. I was using the VGA version. I've even seen Lemmings for DOS available to play

    I seem to have found some DOSBox settings that have helped. I found an online forum where someone mentioned a couple settings for dosbox.conf - Under [dosbox], use machine=vgaonly, and under [cpu], use cycles=5000. That seems to make the graphics look how they should. The only other thing is that the first lemmings isn't detecting the Sound Blaster/Adlib sound, but Christmas Lemmings and Holiday Lemmings both have sound and music via Sound Blaster/Adlib.

    Nightfox
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  • From Orphan@21:2/119 to Nightfox on Sun Nov 26 20:31:52 2023

    Hello Nightfox!

    26 Nov 23 15:29, you wrote to all:

    Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Nightfox to All on Mon Oct 30 2023 04:49 pm

    In the past couple years, I've tried to play Lemmings for DOS
    within DOSemu (on Windows), but to me the colors look a bit off.
    It doesn't look quite the same as I remember playing it back in
    the early 90s. I was using the VGA version. I've even seen
    Lemmings for DOS available to play

    I seem to have found some DOSBox settings that have helped. I found
    an online forum where someone mentioned a couple settings for
    dosbox.conf - Under [dosbox], use machine=vgaonly, and under [cpu],
    use cycles=5000. That seems to make the graphics look how they
    should. The only other thing is that the first lemmings isn't
    detecting the Sound Blaster/Adlib sound, but Christmas Lemmings and Holiday Lemmings both have sound and music via Sound Blaster/Adlib.

    Nightfox
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    I play the Amiga version of Lemmings emulated :)

    Regards,
    Orphan


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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Orphan on Wed Dec 13 20:28:11 2023
    Re: Lemmings game for DOS
    By: Orphan to Nightfox on Sun Nov 26 2023 08:31 pm

    I play the Amiga version of Lemmings emulated :)

    I was about to set up an Amiga emulator on my PC to play Lemmings for Amiga. I also found a copy of Lemmings for Amiga for download, and it came pre-packaged with an Amiga emulator and a batch file to run it on Windows, so it's easy to start up and run. The Amiga verison of Lemmings is indeed nice. :)

    Nightfox
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  • From Orphan@21:2/119 to Nightfox on Thu Dec 14 09:53:31 2023

    Hello Nightfox!

    13 Dec 23 20:28, you wrote to me:

    I was about to set up an Amiga emulator on my PC to play Lemmings for Amiga. I also found a copy of Lemmings for Amiga for download, and it came pre-packaged with an Amiga emulator and a batch file to run it on Windows, so it's easy to start up and run. The Amiga verison of
    Lemmings is indeed nice. :)

    Yes there's lot of software for amiga ready for using on emulators.
    I prefer amiga games over DOS games any day.

    Nightfox
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    Orphan


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