• Re: Atari 400; meh.

    From paulie420@21:2/150 to Commodore Clifford on Mon Jun 19 18:23:35 2023
    You know the funny thing... the seller also had an Atari 400,
    working, that they would have let go for almost any OK offer.

    Yeah, I'll be honest, the 400 isn't one of the machines I'm looking for
    in my collection. I also passed (so far) on a 600xl (might be reconsidering that someday though due to the size) and the 65xe.

    I am NOT an Atari guy, but the 400 seemed like a 'computer' that was more a console and not even as good as the 2600/5200/7800 line - but again, what do I know...

    If you're only going to get one, the 800xl is really the way to go. A 1200xl is pretty great, but the keyboards tend to be faulty (but also not to hard to repair, and beyond that, it's the best keyboard out there).

    And again, I've never been an Atari guy - but I thought the ST line was the shining star, or what one would want to try to get... same w/ that IIe, tho; there are many machines 'better' - but the IIe is a gem even tho much less capable that the IIgs/Mac/etc, because of how popular and successful it was.. if I ever find that gem Atari I might go... 800, ST.



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to paulie420 on Fri Jun 23 11:26:38 2023
    On 19 Jun 23 18:23:35 paulie420 wrote...

    And again, I've never been an Atari guy - but I thought the ST line
    was the shining star, or what one would want to try to get... same w/
    that IIe, tho; there are many machines 'better' - but the IIe is a
    gem even tho much less capable that the IIgs/Mac/etc, because of how popular and successful it was.. if I ever find that gem Atari I might
    go... 800, ST.

    To which Darklord replies...

    That's not a bad route to take, pick up something like the 800XL from the
    8bit line and if possible, the Mega STe from the ST line. That would give
    you 2 of the best models, 1 from each line.

    Hardcore 8bitters will proclaim loudly and with great gusto that "their" machines are the best the people from the ST side of things will, of
    course, do the same thing. Truth is though, there are great things on
    either side and advantages as well.

    I highly recommend both. :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to paulie420 on Tue Jul 18 02:15:24 2023
    On 19 Jun 23 18:23:35 paulie420 wrote...

    And again, I've never been an Atari guy - but I thought the ST line
    was the shining star, or what one would want to try to get... same w/
    that IIe, tho; there are many machines 'better' - but the IIe is a
    gem even tho much less capable that the IIgs/Mac/etc, because of how popular and successful it was.. if I ever find that gem Atari I might
    go... 800, ST.

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Well, that kind of is like apples and oranges to some people. I think we covered that before, but a lot of people don't consider the ST's to be
    "true" Ataris. (I mean, I do, but...) Either way, it's comparing a C64
    to an Amiga.

    As to the 400 being more of a console with a keyboard, actually... The
    5200 and the 400 have a lot in common (to the point where some would say
    the 5200 is almost a 400 without a keyboard).

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
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  • From massive@21:3/178 to Commodore Clifford on Wed Jul 19 17:53:09 2023
    Yeah- the Atari 8bit line was really the result of the genius of Jay
    Miner and his next generation of system was the Amiga.

    I've always seen the Atari 8bit and Amiga as a natural progression
    of systems- and the company Atari - esp after Tramiel bought it and
    brought out the ST- and something that had nothing to do with the
    classic 8bit line of computers.
    -andy

    ---
    * Origin: Massive BBS | bbs.diller.org (21:3/178)
  • From paulie420@21:2/150 to massive on Wed Jul 19 18:49:21 2023
    I've always seen the Atari 8bit and Amiga as a natural progression
    of systems- and the company Atari - esp after Tramiel bought it and brought out the ST- and something that had nothing to do with the
    classic 8bit line of computers.

    I really wish I'd of known of Amiga [and Atari] in the 90s... I was a PC-DOS kid, but IMO Amiga was the better platform!!! Wow; bold statement, eh??

    Atari, too, in the era before Amiga, was a crazy awesome contender too... my brother had an Amiga for a very short time - I sure wish it was passed down to me.



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to paulie420 on Mon Jul 24 12:35:09 2023
    I really wish I'd of known of Amiga [and Atari] in the 90s... I was a PC-DOS kid, but IMO Amiga was the better platform!!! Wow; bold
    statement, eh??

    Considering all the knowledge we have today.. I don't know.

    I love Amiga and I had it back in the 90s and now I can tell you this was
    one of the most over hyped computer in the history of computing.

    Yes, sure it had great additional chipsets (GPU, Audio, you name it) bundled in, but that was great for 1986, not the 90s.

    Sure it had great OS experience but it matured up enough in the times you already had MacOS 8/9 with a lot better support and availability of modern software and by the time Amiga was getting bankrupt with the whole Commodore, Project "Chicago" was turning into 1995 a year after.
    And to be honest.. 8bit/16bit Apple II(GS) already offered something that Amiga OS could be inspired by not inspiring...

    ATARI....? yeah.. the consoles were great but only if you liked the 70s aesthetics in the 80s... Atari was dead in the 90s.. big time! OS that looks like GeOS poor brother.. no extra chipsets.. all relying on weak CPU to handle everything... and that design that looks like if somebody scooped some metal buttons on top of cheap plastic and the ass was put diagonal on the box, so the buttons are skewed....

    Great these times had a lot of competition.... but aside of sentiments... are we really sure we can make objective comparisons?

    I believe there is a reason why Pentium and Playstation dominated the 90s experience and the early 90s is just extended 80s until above two Ps emerged from the fog of the computer wars.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From paulie420@21:2/150 to hollowone on Mon Jul 24 18:50:20 2023
    ATARI....? yeah.. the consoles were great but only if you liked the 70s aesthetics in the 80s... Atari was dead in the 90s.. big time! OS that looks like GeOS poor brother.. no extra chipsets.. all relying on weak
    CPU to handle everything... and that design that looks like if somebody scooped some metal buttons on top of cheap plastic and the ass was put diagonal on the box, so the buttons are skewed....

    I really wanna join the FujiNet project to help out in any way I can. They are supposedly working on Apple IIe and C=64 support - which I could take total advantage of.. and, can build a FujiNet for those platforms now; they're just not baked like the Atari FujiNet is.

    While I'm hunting for an Atari 800, XL or other, I have an Atari 400 available for VERY cheap [$40...] - so I think I'm gonna pull the trigger on it. Its a known-good machine - only - so I've also located a pack of 5-6 cartridges for it; BASIC, a few games and some other stuff.

    I'm gonna source all those things and order [or build] an Atari FujiNet.



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to hollowone on Thu Jul 27 13:10:36 2023
    It's interesting to me to watch criticims of some retro computer
    platforms. To be honest, you have to approach it with the idea of, "but
    what did it mean then?". Trying to view it through a modern lens is mostly pointless, IMHO.

    Let me give an example. I got my first Atari 520ST in like late 1985,
    early 1986 (don't remember exactly). I got the SC1224 color monitor, 3.5" floppy drive, 520ST, and some software thrown in for under a $1000. When
    the Amiga came out just a few months later, it was $1500 just for the
    base unit alone. Mac? PC? Forget it - I would have had to rob a bank or something similar to be able to afford one, and then, they were *way* underpowered compared to the Amiga and Atari at that time.

    So sure...PC's eventually caught up and bypassed both machines. It took a
    while though and I still *loathe* Windows to this day. I use Kubuntu
    Linux primarily, with one Win10 box for a few games that underperform
    with Wine.

    Bear in mind that Tramiel and Atari managed to design and release for
    sale, a modern computer within a -6- month time period. Has that ever
    been done before or since? Something to think about.

    As far as looks. I've not seen one PC ever that could rival the looks of
    my Atari Mega ST, Mega STe or STacy. I'd state the same thing about the original Amiga A1000 - I think it's a beautiful machine.

    I'd still rather fire up one of my Atari's than sit and look at a Windows
    box. No heart...no spirit...no soul. Microsoft made sure of that. :)

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Darklord on Thu Jul 27 16:11:00 2023
    Darklord wrote to hollowone <=-

    It's interesting to me to watch criticims of some retro computer platforms. To be honest, you have to approach it with the idea of, "but what did it mean then?". Trying to view it through a modern lens is
    mostly pointless, IMHO.

    Let me give an example. I got my first Atari 520ST in like late 1985, early 1986 (don't remember exactly). I got the SC1224 color monitor,
    3.5" floppy drive, 520ST, and some software thrown in for under a
    $1000. When the Amiga came out just a few months later, it was $1500
    just for the base unit alone. Mac? PC? Forget it - I would have had to
    rob a bank or something similar to be able to afford one, and then,
    they were *way* underpowered compared to the Amiga and Atari at that
    time.

    So sure...PC's eventually caught up and bypassed both machines. It took
    a while though and I still *loathe* Windows to this day. I use Kubuntu Linux primarily, with one Win10 box for a few games that underperform
    with Wine.

    Bear in mind that Tramiel and Atari managed to design and release for sale, a modern computer within a -6- month time period. Has that ever
    been done before or since? Something to think about.

    As far as looks. I've not seen one PC ever that could rival the looks
    of my Atari Mega ST, Mega STe or STacy. I'd state the same thing about
    the original Amiga A1000 - I think it's a beautiful machine.

    I'd still rather fire up one of my Atari's than sit and look at a
    Windows box. No heart...no spirit...no soul. Microsoft made sure of
    that. :)

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983
    (21:3/171.0)

    yea i personally like the old computer asthetic, "modern" stuff feels too flat and lifeless
    i still like windows 7 aero tho

    ... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Darklord on Thu Jul 27 16:59:16 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Darklord to hollowone on Thu Jul 27 2023 01:10 pm

    So sure...PC's eventually caught up and bypassed both machines. It took a while though and I still *loathe* Windows to this day. I use Kubuntu Linux

    I've always been mainly a PC (DOS/Windows user), but I often didn't like Microsoft and both liked and disliked Windows.. I started using Windows with version 3.0, and when I got my own computer, it often seemed like Windows was too much of a resource hog. I thought it was odd that Windows was what was popular, when arguably better alternatves were available, even for the PC (such as OS/2).

    Windows is my main OS at home though, since most of the software I use runs in it. I dual-boot with Linux Mint though.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to candycane on Thu Jul 27 17:00:24 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: candycane to Darklord on Thu Jul 27 2023 04:11 pm

    yea i personally like the old computer asthetic, "modern" stuff feels too flat and lifeless
    i still like windows 7 aero tho

    I feel that way about operating systems these days. They've all pretty much gone to a flat look, which I don't think looks as good as the more 3D appearance they used to all have. I don't really understand the trend either, as it looks like something from the late 80s..

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Ewing@21:3/153 to Nightfox on Fri Jul 28 11:12:49 2023
    I feel that way about operating systems these days. They've all pretty much gone to a flat look, which I don't think looks as good as the more 3D appearance they used to all have. I don't really understand the trend either, as it looks like something from the late 80s..

    I hate it. The flat interfaces and the massive oversimplification of the GUIs are doing my head in.

    Just being able to run an app on my Mac where the developer hasn't paid Apple for a certificate is painful and don't even get me started on Windows 11.

    If it weren't for a few apps I use daily that only run on Windows and Mac I would have probably given Linux on the desktop another try (something I haven't done in 20 years).
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Mortal BBS - mortalbbs.com - Blue Mountains, AU (21:3/153)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Nightfox on Thu Jul 27 20:34:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to candycane <=-

    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: candycane to Darklord on Thu Jul 27 2023 04:11 pm

    yea i personally like the old computer asthetic, "modern" stuff feels too flat and lifeless
    i still like windows 7 aero tho

    I feel that way about operating systems these days. They've all pretty much gone to a flat look, which I don't think looks as good as the more
    3D appearance they used to all have. I don't really understand the
    trend either, as it looks like something from the late 80s..

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

    yea! tho i personally customized my desktop a bit cuz linux
    (how are you supposed to attach images on bbs?)

    ... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Nightfox on Thu Jul 27 20:36:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Darklord <=-

    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Darklord to hollowone on Thu Jul 27 2023 01:10 pm

    So sure...PC's eventually caught up and bypassed both machines. It took a while though and I still *loathe* Windows to this day. I use Kubuntu Linux

    I've always been mainly a PC (DOS/Windows user), but I often didn't
    like Microsoft and both liked and disliked Windows.. I started using Windows with version 3.0, and when I got my own computer, it often
    seemed like Windows was too much of a resource hog. I thought it was
    odd that Windows was what was popular, when arguably better alternatves were available, even for the PC (such as OS/2).

    Windows is my main OS at home though, since most of the software I use runs in it. I dual-boot with Linux Mint though.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

    i was introduced to linux thru raspberry pi and i was so fascinated by it

    ... Error 3032 - Recursion error. See error 3032
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to Nightfox on Thu Jul 27 21:39:14 2023
    Windows is my main OS at home though, since most of the software I use runs in it. I dual-boot with Linux Mint though.

    I maintain one machine at home with Windows 10, but it's strictly for gaming. And honestly I use it the least out of all my computers lol.

    After leaving my job a month ago, I had to give back my MacBook, so I've been using my PC laptop with linux and it's great. I do miss the MacBook and would love to get another, but as I'm currently jobless, I can't justify the expense :P

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to candycane on Thu Jul 27 21:40:03 2023
    yea! tho i personally customized my desktop a bit cuz linux
    (how are you supposed to attach images on bbs?)

    Throw the image up on imgur or something and drop a link :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to esc on Fri Jul 28 03:13:13 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: esc to candycane on Thu Jul 27 2023 09:40 pm

    Throw the image up on imgur or something and drop a link :)

    right, well heres my desktop (i drew most of it)

    https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1096798436461903892/1134382693359034368/desk.png?width=832&height=467

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Fri Jul 28 07:45:00 2023
    esc wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Windows is my main OS at home though, since most of the software I use runs in it. I dual-boot with Linux Mint though.

    I maintain one machine at home with Windows 10, but it's strictly for gaming. And honestly I use it the least out of all my computers lol.

    I'm Windows 10 on bare metal here, unfortunately, using Windows pays my
    bills. I do have a work laptop, I could theoretically run Linux on my
    desktop and use Windows on my work system.

    Then I'd have the BBS running in Windows on a Linux hypervisor, Linux
    on my home desktop and Windows on my work laptop.

    After leaving my job a month ago, I had to give back my MacBook, so
    I've been using my PC laptop with linux and it's great. I do miss the MacBook and would love to get another, but as I'm currently jobless, I can't justify the expense

    The nice thing about the Mac ecosystem is that while there's a couple
    of good years of support and compatibility there, people tend to
    upgrade more, or so it seems. Mac Minis and older MacBook Pros seem
    pretty reasonable and upgradeable.





    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

    ... HACK THE PLANET!
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Darklord on Fri Jul 28 07:53:00 2023
    Darklord wrote to hollowone <=-

    I'd still rather fire up one of my Atari's than sit and look at a
    Windows box. No heart...no spirit...no soul. Microsoft made sure of
    that. :)

    That's why I love UNIX boxes from the 1990s. You had little
    mini-mainframe looking boxes, NeXt pizzaboxes and cubes, Sun
    workstations (best keyboard, ever) and the weird, wacky world of SGI workstations.



    ... The strongest steel is forged in the fires of a dumpster.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Ewing on Fri Jul 28 08:36:07 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Ewing to Nightfox on Fri Jul 28 2023 11:12 am

    I hate it. The flat interfaces and the massive oversimplification of the GUIs are doing my head in.

    Just being able to run an app on my Mac where the developer hasn't paid Apple for a certificate is painful and don't even get me started on Windows 11.

    Mac developers now need to pay Apple for a certificate for their software to run on Mac OS? That seems overly draconian.. We have a couple of Macs where I work and I hadn't noticed that, but I guess that's another reason I won't plan on buying a Mac any time soon.

    If it weren't for a few apps I use daily that only run on Windows and Mac I would have probably given Linux on the desktop another try (something I haven't done in 20 years).

    I've been seriously considering using mainly Linux for quite a while. My main OS at home is Windows, due to the software I often use (which includes some games).. For gaming, I've heard some good progress has been made to allow Windows games to run on Linux, though I've had problems with a couple of them. A recent game I've played recently is Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020, and I have a feeling that probably won't run in Linux.. Also, there are some photo and video editing programs I use for Windows that aren't available for Linux.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to candycane on Fri Jul 28 08:36:57 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: candycane to Nightfox on Thu Jul 27 2023 08:34 pm

    yea! tho i personally customized my desktop a bit cuz linux (how are you supposed to attach images on bbs?)

    One thing you could do is upload the photos to a hosting site (such as Imgur, for instance) and copy & paste links here.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to candycane on Fri Jul 28 08:38:07 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: candycane to Nightfox on Thu Jul 27 2023 08:36 pm

    i was introduced to linux thru raspberry pi and i was so fascinated by it

    Interesting.. My dad had tried some early versions of Linux in the mid 90s on a PC (using Slackware). I'd used Linux off and on since then, mainly for work, and now I use Linux at home on my BBS PC (which is also my home media server). I dual-boot Windows and Linux on my main PC at home as well.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jul 28 12:05:42 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to esc on Fri Jul 28 2023 07:45 am

    I'm Windows 10 on bare metal here, unfortunately, using Windows pays my bills. I do have a work laptop, I could theoretically run Linux on my desktop and use Windows on my work system.

    i still have a super old win8.1 laptop i use for really old games, but my main laptop is a linux one

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...When you smell an odourless gas, it is probably carbon monoxide.
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    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From fusion@21:1/616 to Nightfox on Fri Jul 28 14:09:36 2023
    On 28 Jul 2023, Nightfox said the following...

    Interesting.. My dad had tried some early versions of Linux in the mid 90s on a PC (using Slackware). I'd used Linux off and on since then, mainly for work, and now I use Linux at home on my BBS PC (which is also my home media server). I dual-boot Windows and Linux on my main PC at
    home as well.

    using Slackware here too. dual booting that and Windows 11. it's not often i have to boot over to windows, just mainly for gaming.

    i use enlightenment 16 with the Warp theme from here: https://ps.ucw.cz/e16/e16-themes-gallery/

    makes for something like a bizzaro world version of the motif window manager that looks like os/2 but with transparency and other goodies

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to fusion on Fri Jul 28 15:52:54 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: fusion to Nightfox on Fri Jul 28 2023 02:09 pm


    i use enlightenment 16 with the Warp theme from here: https://ps.ucw.cz/e16/e16-themes-gallery/

    makes for something like a bizzaro world version of the motif window manager that looks like os/2 but with transparency and other goodies

    wow, that looks beautiful! i currently just use openbox but i might switch over to enlightenment for a bit

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From massive@21:3/178 to Nightfox on Fri Jul 28 17:15:27 2023
    A really lightweight image hoster is: https://envs.sh/

    No accounts or auth and you can uload with a curl statment. Very
    fast and very easy for things like irc and a BBS.

    -andy

    ---
    * Origin: Massive BBS | bbs.diller.org (21:3/178)
  • From deon@21:2/116 to Nightfox on Sat Jul 29 09:44:56 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Nightfox to Ewing on Fri Jul 28 2023 08:36 am

    Mac developers now need to pay Apple for a certificate for their software to run on Mac OS? That seems overly draconian.. We have a couple of Macs

    So this is not 100% correct.

    I'm a MAC user, on current MAC hardware and I run quite a few tools that are opensource and come from developers who do not have an apple certificate. (Syncterm is an example :)

    If you want your software in the MAC store - sure, you do need a cert, and that costs you $99(?) a year. But thats not the only way you can run stuff on your MAC.

    I actually like it - it means that the app store is not overloaded with crap - you actually put some effort to get stuff there.


    ...лоеп
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to massive on Fri Jul 28 20:22:25 2023
    Re: Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: massive to Nightfox on Fri Jul 28 2023 05:15 pm

    A really lightweight image hoster is: https://envs.sh/

    No accounts or auth and you can uload with a curl statment. Very
    fast and very easy for things like irc and a BBS.

    -andy

    ---
    * Origin: Massive BBS | bbs.diller.org (21:3/178)

    its isp blocked, but maybe something like pastebin would work instead?

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...Music is essentially useless, as life is.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Ewing@21:3/153 to deon on Sat Jul 29 10:58:20 2023
    So this is not 100% correct.

    I'm a MAC user, on current MAC hardware and I run quite a few tools that are opensource and come from developers who do not have an apple certificate. (Syncterm is an example :)

    They can be run, but you need to jump through a few hoops to do so (on Ventura anyway).

    Using that SyncTERM example the first time I run a new binary I need to go to Settings -> Privacy & Security, click "Open Anyway" and then authenticate because it hasn't been signed by an Apple Developer ID (which does require payment). Example screenshots:

    https://files.ewing.au/?r=1819&k=5b2f34a1e0 https://files.ewing.au/?r=1820&k=cdb91ee4df https://files.ewing.au/?r=1821&k=67a85ad184
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Mortal BBS - mortalbbs.com - Blue Mountains, AU (21:3/153)
  • From deon@21:2/116 to Ewing on Sat Jul 29 13:58:53 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Ewing to deon on Sat Jul 29 2023 10:58 am

    Using that SyncTERM example the first time I run a new binary I need to go to Settings -> Privacy & Security, click "Open Anyway" and then authenticate because it hasn't been signed by an Apple Developer ID (which does require payment). Example screenshots:

    https://files.ewing.au/?r=1819&k=5b2f34a1e0 https://files.ewing.au/?r=1820&k=cdb91ee4df https://files.ewing.au/?r=1821&k=67a85ad184

    Or you can hold Option (might be command, cant remember) and click on it to open it - the second time you do, you select "Open Anyway". This is all you need to do for it to open normally next time (ie: once), until you replace it with another version, then you need to do it again... :)

    But you are right, if you sign it (which you need to have a developer cert which costs an annual fee), then you dont need to do this extra step...

    ...лоеп
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)
  • From tassiebob@21:3/169 to Nightfox on Sat Jul 29 14:58:06 2023
    Mac developers now need to pay Apple for a certificate for their
    software to run on Mac OS? That seems overly draconian..

    That's been a thing for a few years now. If your software isn't appropriate signed then OSX will refuse to install it until you go into the security preferences and click the "run the bloody thing anyway" button.

    I think you can also disable that setting so it'll install anything from anywhere, but it's been a while since I've OSX'd in anger.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: TassieBob BBS, Hobart, Tasmania (21:3/169)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to tassiebob on Sat Jul 29 01:30:02 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: tassiebob to Nightfox on Sat Jul 29 2023 02:58 pm

    I think you can also disable that setting so it'll install anything from anywhere, but it's been a while since I've OSX'd in anger.

    making it easier to install non-official apps? that doesnt sound like apple

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...I may not be totally perfect, but parts of me are excellent.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to candycane on Sat Jul 29 07:59:00 2023
    candycane wrote to fusion <=-

    wow, that looks beautiful! i currently just use openbox but i might
    switch over to enlightenment for a bit

    I might see if Bodhi linux (I have it running in a VM) can load themes,
    this is interesting. I'm an old OS/2 head, having Presentation Manager
    features on a modern OS would be amusing.



    ... Where is the center of the maze?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to candycane on Sat Jul 29 13:10:39 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: candycane to tassiebob on Sat Jul 29 2023 01:30 am

    I think you can also disable that setting so it'll install anything from
    anywhere, but it's been a while since I've OSX'd in anger.

    making it easier to install non-official apps? that doesnt sound like apple

    In the past, I thought you could install & run any Mac app from pretty much anywhere.. We have a couple Macs at work, and I do seem to remember there being a setting you can disable to have it not check for a developer signature.

    IMO, a computer is a tool to do work, and I don't think the OS should get in the way of running a program that you want or need to use.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Nightfox on Sat Jul 29 17:19:20 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Nightfox to candycane on Sat Jul 29 2023 01:10 pm

    IMO, a computer is a tool to do work, and I don't think the OS should get in the way of running a program that you want or need to use.

    yea, agreed

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...Miss Stove seems to be going off the boil.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Mhansel739@21:3/171 to Nightfox on Sun Jul 30 08:16:56 2023
    I've always been mainly a PC (DOS/Windows user), but I often didn't lik Microsoft and both liked and disliked Windows.. I started using Window version 3.0, and when I got my own computer, it often seemed like Windo
    too much of a resource hog. I thought it was odd that Windows was what popular, when arguably better alternatves were available, even for the (such as OS/2).

    Yes, well that is thanks to the marketing machine we call Microsoft. They marketed and pushed DOS and Windows and made deals with "all" the PC manufacturers to be the default OS on their machines. And when you have a
    set of new people that have little to no IT experience, that is all they
    know. Good, bad, or otherwise, DOS and Windows become the defacto
    standard. And once you get the software developers onboard - which is not
    hard - the larger market thing - there you have it.
    I run Windows daily. It is what it is. Do I like it? Meh. Would I prefer
    to run some form of Linux or move to a Mac? Yes. But the tools I use and
    the customers I support are Windows users. Kind of have to go that way.
    --Matt

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Mhansel739@21:3/171 to esc on Sun Jul 30 08:20:46 2023
    After leaving my job a month ago, I had to give back my MacBook, so I'v using my PC laptop with linux and it's great. I do miss the MacBook and love to get another, but as I'm currently jobless, I can't justify the expense :P

    Yes, the cost of the MacBooks are up there - so having a limited income
    at this time does hamper the ability to get one. I would prefer to go
    that route myself. My wife has one, but I fear that soon it will be
    unable to support the latest updates. The same for her iPad. Then we will
    be in a pickle. She is in school for her Masters, so I have to make sure
    her tools work for her. She uses PCs at work, so I may have to hook her
    up with a Windows machine - at least for a while.
    --Matt

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Mhansel739@21:3/171 to candycane on Sun Jul 30 08:29:22 2023
    IMO, a computer is a tool to do work, and I don't think the OS sho
    in the way of running a program that you want or need to use.
    Yes, it is a tool that you should be able to run what you want on. The
    issue is that most people, unlike most of us here that are in IT and
    understand risks, etc., do not understand those risks. They will load
    software that will harm their systems (aka virus, malware, ransomware)
    and potentially harm the network they are on. I get where y'all are
    coming from - get out of my way Windows or MacOS and let me run the damn software - I know what I am doing. But if someone else was doing that,
    somehow, for whatever reason, the backlash would come back on the OS manufacturer as to why they did not protect against bad actors. Stupid
    circle of blame!
    --Matt

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Roon@21:4/148 to candycane on Sun Jul 30 20:08:41 2023
    Hello candycane,

    28 Jul 23 03:13, you wrote to esc:

    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: esc to candycane on Thu Jul 27 2023 09:40 pm

    Throw the image up on imgur or something and drop a link :)

    right, well heres my desktop (i drew most of it)

    https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1096798436461903892/113438269 3359034368/desk.png?width=832&height=467

    lol! so many layers :)

    Regards,
    --
    dp

    telnet://bbs.roonsbbs.hu:1212 <<=-

    ... Uptime: 0d 0h 24m 51s
    --- GoldED/2 1.1.4.7+EMX
    * Origin: Roon's BBS - Budapest, HUNGARY (21:4/148)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Mhansel739 on Sun Jul 30 14:43:04 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Mhansel739 to Nightfox on Sun Jul 30 2023 08:16 am

    I run Windows daily. It is what it is. Do I like it? Meh. Would I prefer to run some form of Linux or move to a Mac? Yes. But the tools I use and

    I think Apple/Mac is about as bad as Microsoft in some ways, and currently, I'm not really interested in the Macs that Apple is offering (although they seem to be decently powerful, they don't offer the configurability that a PC does).

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From candycane@21:1/137 to Roon on Sun Jul 30 16:07:17 2023
    Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Roon to candycane on Sun Jul 30 2023 08:08 pm

    Hello candycane,

    28 Jul 23 03:13, you wrote to esc:

    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: esc to candycane on Thu Jul 27 2023 09:40 pm

    Throw the image up on imgur or something and drop a link :)

    right, well heres my desktop (i drew most of it)

    https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1096798436461903892/113438269
    3359034368/desk.png?width=832&height=467

    lol! so many layers :)

    Regards,
    --
    dp

    telnet://bbs.roonsbbs.hu:1212 <<=-

    ... Uptime: 0d 0h 24m 51s
    --- GoldED/2 1.1.4.7+EMX
    * Origin: Roon's BBS - Budapest, HUNGARY (21:4/148)

    wdym by layers? like, drawing layers?

    ===
    user generated from /dev/urandom



    ...Many people think Joan of Arc was immortal, but she did in fact exist.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Darklord on Sun Jul 30 23:26:10 2023
    It's interesting to me to watch criticims of some retro computer platforms. To be honest, you have to approach it with the idea of, "but what did it mean then?". Trying to view it through a modern lens is
    mostly pointless, IMHO.

    You've got your points, obviously. Just please mind that I was not seriously criticizing.. more trying to be ironic :>

    And with Tramiel... yeah.. if only he did not have sales/marketing tactics that doomed both C= and Atari at the end...

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Mhansel739@21:3/171 to Nightfox on Mon Jul 31 06:21:14 2023
    I think Apple/Mac is about as bad as Microsoft in some ways, and curren
    I'm not really interested in the Macs that Apple is offering (although seem to be decently powerful, they don't offer the configurability that does).
    You are right on so many levels. The control Apple has over its products
    - much like a dictatorship in a sense. You will take what we give you. If
    we offer you choices, these are the choices. You have to buy the machine
    the way you think you will want it to be - "forever". The MacBook my wife currently did allow me the ability to change drives and upgrade RAM. That
    has allowed it to last as long as it has.

    --Matt

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From candycane@21:1/137 to Mhansel739 on Mon Jul 31 05:42:15 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Mhansel739 to Nightfox on Mon Jul 31 2023 06:21 am

    I think Apple/Mac is about as bad as Microsoft in some ways, and curren
    I'm not really interested in the Macs that Apple is offering (although
    seem to be decently powerful, they don't offer the configurability that
    does).
    You are right on so many levels. The control Apple has over its products - much like a dictatorship in a sense. You will take what we give you. If we offer you choices, these are the choices. You have to buy the machine the way you think you will want it to be - "forever". The MacBook my wife currently did allow me the ability to change drives and upgrade RAM. That has allowed it to last as long as it has.

    --Matt

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

    plus, apple has a history of making it as hard as possible to repair your own devices by shutting down if you don't have a verified part

    ===
    user generated from /dev/urandom



    ...Let me then switch tacks and change horses in midstream.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to candycane on Mon Jul 31 12:03:56 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: candycane to Mhansel739 on Mon Jul 31 2023 05:42 am

    plus, apple has a history of making it as hard as possible to repair your own devices by shutting down if you don't have a verified part

    I never was much of an Apple user, but in 2012 I had bought a MacBook Pro (a late 2011 model, the last of the 17" version and last with an optical drive), and upgraded its RAM myself with non-Apple branded RAM. It worked, but the laptop showed a 'warning' message that it had non-Apple RAM in it.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Tue Aug 1 08:16:00 2023
    plus, apple has a history of making it as hard as possible to repair
    your
    own devices by shutting down if you don't have a verified part

    I never was much of an Apple user, but in 2012 I had bought a MacBook Pro (a late 2011 model, the last of the 17" version and last with an optical

    I'll be the last person to disagree, ever since it became Jobbies and post jobbies...its just become the 80's MS of the new millenium. However its completely at odds from where it started... Its ancient history, but the II+ used nothing but off the shelf parts. It also came with full specs and schematics to make it do whatever you wanted... They need a bit of that
    back... somewhere along the way they traded any open thought for this
    shitstorm they have now.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From Mhansel739@21:3/171 to Spectre on Tue Aug 1 05:00:10 2023
    completely at odds from where it started... Its ancient history, but th used nothing but off the shelf parts. It also came with full specs and schematics to make it do whatever you wanted... They need a bit of that back... somewhere along the way they traded any open thought for this
    You know what, I agree with you. While I never owned an Apple II/IIe/II+,
    etc. until recently (an Apple //c), they were open for your pleasure.
    Now, does it make them "horrible" that they closed up and are the only
    ones that can modify hardware, etc.? No, because the majority of the
    users like them for what they are/do - they turn on and work and do what
    they want. Simple little icons that launch apps that do the thing they
    want. The masses of users did not push the computers of old (or new) like
    us geeks/retro enthusiasts do.
    Alas, the good ol' days. And that is the reason we hang on to the "good
    old stuff" like we do.
    --Matt

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Bf2K+@21:3/171 to Mhansel739 on Tue Aug 1 05:30:12 2023
    Apple - open vs. closed
    Woz (the engineer) wanted an open system. Jobs (the marketing guy) wanted everything shut down and closed up tight. I guess we know who won that
    one...

    I think Jobs once said "Users don't know what they want until we show
    them what they want."

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From deon@21:2/116 to Nightfox on Tue Aug 1 23:57:50 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Nightfox to candycane on Mon Jul 31 2023 12:03 pm

    plus, apple has a history of making it as hard as possible to repair your own devices by shutting down if you don't have a verified part

    I never was much of an Apple user, but in 2012 I had bought a MacBook Pro (a late 2011 model, the last of the 17" version and last with an optical drive), and upgraded its RAM myself with non-Apple branded RAM. It worked, but the laptop showed a 'warning' message that it had non-Apple RAM in it.

    FWIW, I bought (and still use) an iMac 2012ish and upgraded the RAM with non-branded RAM and I never saw such a warning message... It still works happily today.


    ...лоеп
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Spectre on Tue Aug 1 08:49:42 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Spectre to Nightfox on Tue Aug 01 2023 08:16 am

    I never was much of an Apple user, but in 2012 I had bought a MacBook Pro
    (a late 2011 model, the last of the 17" version and last with an optical

    I'll be the last person to disagree, ever since it became Jobbies and post jobbies...its just become the 80's MS of the new millenium. However its completely at odds from where it started... Its ancient history, but the II+ used nothing but off the shelf parts. It also came with full specs and schematics to make it do whatever you wanted... They need a bit of that back... somewhere along the way they traded any open thought for this shitstorm they have now.

    Yeah, I've heard about that. Even in the late 90s to mid-late 2000s, their Mac towers (and some horizontal desktop models) were fairly easy to open and replace components inside. Since they discontinued the G5 Mac Pro, it seems they started locking things down a lot more and making things more difficult to upgrade.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Bf2K+ on Wed Aug 2 03:14:00 2023
    Woz (the engineer) wanted an open system. Jobs (the marketing guy) wanted everything shut down and closed up tight. I guess we know who won that one...

    Back in the.... 80s? Woz an avid pilot was involved in a plane crash. Apparently a close to death experience, changed his priorities, and he ultimately left Apple's day to day operations completely. So I think Jobbies won by default.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Mhansel739 on Sun Jul 30 08:15:00 2023
    Mhansel739 wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Yes, well that is thanks to the marketing machine we call Microsoft.
    They marketed and pushed DOS and Windows and made deals with "all" the
    PC manufacturers to be the default OS on their machines. And when you
    have a set of new people that have little to no IT experience, that is
    all they know. Good, bad, or otherwise, DOS and Windows become the
    defacto standard.

    I just read a book called "Showstopper: The Breakneck Race to Create
    Windows NT and the Next Generation at Microsoft".

    It outlines the journey to create Windows NT 3.5, which was the basis
    for the Windows we know today. Interesting read, interesting times. I'd
    forgotten how they'd taken their efforts with OS/2 and made it look and
    feel like Windows 3, even though it was completely different
    underneath.





    ... Do nothing for as long as possible
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Nightfox on Wed Aug 2 23:01:31 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Nightfox to candycane on Mon Jul 31 2023 12:03 pm

    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: candycane to Mhansel739 on Mon Jul 31 2023 05:42 am

    plus, apple has a history of making it as hard as possible to repair
    your own devices by shutting down if you don't have a verified part

    I never was much of an Apple user, but in 2012 I had bought a MacBook Pro (a late 2011 model, the last of the 17" version and last with an optical drive), and upgraded its RAM myself with non-Apple branded RAM. It worked, but the laptop showed a 'warning' message that it had non-Apple RAM in it.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

    Oh dang. I used to have a MacAir 2010 or so until the battery exploded. Still have an old ish iPhone 8s as my main phone.

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...We should weep for men at their birth, not their death.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Spectre on Wed Aug 2 23:04:04 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Spectre to Bf2K+ on Wed Aug 02 2023 03:14 am

    Woz (the engineer) wanted an open system. Jobs (the marketing guy)
    wanted everything shut down and closed up tight. I guess we know
    who won that one...

    Back in the.... 80s? Woz an avid pilot was involved in a plane crash. Apparently a close to death experience, changed his priorities, and he ultimately left Apple's day to day operations completely. So I think Jobbies won by default.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

    Glad they survived, but it's sad they had to leave.. Then again, marketing folks probably would've won eventually.

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...Everybody should believe in something: I believe I'll have another drink. --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Thu Aug 3 06:57:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to candycane <=-

    I never was much of an Apple user, but in 2012 I had bought a MacBook
    Pro (a late 2011 model, the last of the 17" version and last with an optical drive), and upgraded its RAM myself with non-Apple branded RAM.
    It worked, but the laptop showed a 'warning' message that it had non-Apple RAM in it.

    I bet it's not Apple-branded RAM it's complaining about per se - I was
    working at a large apple shop back then and we did an upgrade program
    for a couple of hundred of developer Macs - increased the RAM and
    replaced the SATA drive with an SSD.

    Maybe the timing was off, and the laptop flagged the RAM as non-apple?

    We used Crucial RAM, and I never saw that message.




    ... The most easily forgotten thing is the most important
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Aug 3 09:11:51 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Thu Aug 03 2023 06:57 am

    I never was much of an Apple user, but in 2012 I had bought a MacBook Pro
    (a late 2011 model, the last of the 17" version and last with an optical
    drive), and upgraded its RAM myself with non-Apple branded RAM. It
    worked, but the laptop showed a 'warning' message that it had non-Apple
    RAM in it.

    I bet it's not Apple-branded RAM it's complaining about per se - I was working at a large apple shop back then and we did an upgrade program for a couple of hundred of developer Macs - increased the RAM and
    replaced the SATA drive with an SSD.

    Maybe the timing was off, and the laptop flagged the RAM as non-apple?

    We used Crucial RAM, and I never saw that message.

    I remmeber looking up the specs for its RAM (even the Mac OS 'About This Mac' would tell you the RAM speed), and I bought RAM of the same spec but different brand (perhaps Crucial). I was pretty sure there was a warning message about non-Apple RAM. I don't remember where that warning was now - perhaps in a system info app, or it may have been something that was only displayed once after I put in the new RAM; I don't remember now.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to candycane on Fri Aug 4 14:38:00 2023
    Apparently a close to death experience, changed his priorities, and
    he
    ultimately left Apple's day to day operations completely. So I think Jobbies won by default.

    Glad they survived, but it's sad they had to leave.. Then again, marketing folks probably would've won eventually.

    Hmm Woz appears to have been one of the few to actively stand up to Jobs.
    Back then Apple corp was a little bit schizophrenic... kept in the black by Apple II sales while neglecting it almost entirely and pushing the Mac. Were you a Woz guy or a Jobbies guy...

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Spectre on Fri Aug 4 09:41:33 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Spectre to candycane on Fri Aug 04 2023 02:38 pm

    Hmm Woz appears to have been one of the few to actively stand up to Jobs. Back then Apple corp was a little bit schizophrenic... kept in the black by Apple II sales while neglecting it almost entirely and pushing the Mac.

    I'd heard Steve Jobs got a contract with Atari to develop a game for them (along with hardware to play it on), and he had Wozniak help with it but lied to him about the amount Atari paid (saying it was less than it was) so that he (Jobs) wouldn't have to share as much of the earnings with Wozniak.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From StormTrooper@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Sat Aug 5 04:24:36 2023
    I'd heard Steve Jobs got a contract with Atari to develop a game for them (along with hardware to play it on), and he had Wozniak help with it but lied to him about the amount Atari paid (saying it was less than it was) so that he (Jobs) wouldn't have to share as much of the earnings with Wozniak.

    That was meant to be in the real early days pre Apple.. but its supposed to be a thing. Woz was able to design something hardware based that was simpler and cheaper than whatever the Atari engineers came up with.

    ST

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Nightfox on Sat Aug 5 19:50:44 2023
    On 28 Jul 23 08:36:57 Nightfox wrote...

    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh. By: candycane to Nightfox on Thu Jul 27
    2023 08:34 pm

    yea! tho i personally customized my desktop a bit cuz linux (how
    are you supposed to attach images on bbs?)

    One thing you could do is upload the photos to a hosting site (such
    as Imgur, for instance) and copy & paste links here.

    Nightfox --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

    To which Darklord replies...

    Or you could upload them to that particular BBS's file section. :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to hollowone on Sat Aug 5 19:54:52 2023
    On 30 Jul 23 23:26:10 hollowone wrote...

    You've got your points, obviously. Just please mind that I was not seriously criticizing.. more trying to be ironic :>

    And with Tramiel... yeah.. if only he did not have sales/marketing
    tactics that doomed both C= and Atari at the end...

    -h1

    To which Darklord replies...

    Gotcha - no problem. :)

    And with Tramiel - how can you be brilliant and daft, all at the same
    time? Perfect example I guess. :D


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Geri Atricks@21:4/102 to Ewing on Sat Aug 5 22:09:04 2023
    If it weren't for a few apps I use daily that only run on Windows and
    Mac I would have probably given Linux on the desktop another try (something I haven't done in 20 years).

    Check out Zorin Linux. It's what I've been running on my desktop for a while now after running Ubuntu for several years.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Legends of Yesteryear (furmenservices.net:23322) (21:4/102)
  • From Geri Atricks@21:4/102 to Nightfox on Sat Aug 5 22:14:28 2023
    One thing you could do is upload the photos to a hosting site (such as Imgur, for instance) and copy & paste links here.

    And then run that link through something like tinyurl, some terminal programs (like syncterm) won't let me highlight a link to be able to copy/paste it. So the shorter the URL the better.

    There is also the old option of uuencoding the image and then posting the text block for the other end to uudecode back into the image.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Legends of Yesteryear (furmenservices.net:23322) (21:4/102)
  • From Bucko@21:4/131 to Ewing on Sun Aug 6 07:10:40 2023
    On 05 Aug 2023, Geri Atricks said the following...

    If it weren't for a few apps I use daily that only run on Windows and Mac I would have probably given Linux on the desktop another try (something I haven't done in 20 years).

    I just setup an older Laptop with Debian 12, to get around the Windows apps issue, I installed a QEMU/KVM with a VM of Windows 10 on it. I haven't booted the VM since it was installed. Everything I have done has been on the Linux side.. My desktop is next! Set up a VM of Linux and play with it, you will find that there is a lot more available today then there was years ago. AND it runs a lot cleaner. This i5 2.4ghz 16gig laptop boots Debian 12 xfce desktop in about 12 seconds!! When Windows was on it it would take 30-45 seconds..

    AL

    ... Nine times out of ten the statisticians are wrong

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Geri Atricks on Sun Aug 6 14:29:18 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Geri Atricks to Nightfox on Sat Aug 05 2023 10:14 pm

    One thing you could do is upload the photos to a hosting site (such
    as Imgur, for instance) and copy & paste links here.

    And then run that link through something like tinyurl, some terminal programs (like syncterm) won't let me highlight a link to be able to copy/paste it. So the shorter the URL the better.

    On linux at least, it copies to the middle click paste buffer.

    There is also the old option of uuencoding the image and then posting the text block for the other end to uudecode back into the image.

    What's the difference between uuencode and base64? They both seem to be email-friendly encodings..

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...As a boy, he swallowed a teaspoon. And he hasn't stirred since.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Darklord on Sun Aug 6 12:16:22 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Darklord to Nightfox on Sat Aug 05 2023 07:50 pm

    yea! tho i personally customized my desktop a bit cuz linux (how are
    you supposed to attach images on bbs?)

    One thing you could do is upload the photos to a hosting site (such as
    Imgur, for instance) and copy & paste links here.

    Or you could upload them to that particular BBS's file section. :)

    Honestly I'd think it would make more sense to share photos with people here on a photo hosting site. If you wanted to share a link to it on your BBS's file section, you'd have to first upload it to your BBS, and I don't really see the point in uploading such photos to your BBS's file section.. However, if you use Apache or some other web server on a different port, it would be fairly easy to just copy the photos there and share the link.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Geri Atricks on Sun Aug 6 12:18:07 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Geri Atricks to Nightfox on Sat Aug 05 2023 10:14 pm

    One thing you could do is upload the photos to a hosting site (such as
    Imgur, for instance) and copy & paste links here.

    Yeah, I usually use a URL shortener for things like that. But some web hosting sites (like Imgur) have links that are already fairly short and don't need to be shortened.

    And then run that link through something like tinyurl, some terminal programs (like syncterm) won't let me highlight a link to be able to copy/paste it. So the shorter the URL the better.

    Shortening the link does make it easier, but it's not impossible to copy & paste a link that's too long. Often it gets line-wrapped, so you just have to copy all the lines, then paste it into a text editor and put them all together into a single line.

    There is also the old option of uuencoding the image and then posting the text block for the other end to uudecode back into the image.

    But then someone would need to copy & paste the uuencoded text into something and run a program to decode it.. It would be easier to just post a link to the photo.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to candycane on Mon Aug 7 05:25:00 2023
    What's the difference between uuencode and base64? They both seem to be email-friendly encodings..

    If'n I recall right, uuencode only uses 7 bits... it was devised for truly antique news servers. A lot of uuencoding is relatively platform specific
    not all encodes/decoders behave quite the same way.

    base64 appears to be the same thing...uuencode is an implementation.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Darklord on Sun Aug 6 13:34:26 2023
    And with Tramiel... yeah.. if only he did not have sales/marketing tactics that doomed both C= and Atari at the end...

    And with Tramiel - how can you be brilliant and daft, all at the same time? Perfect example I guess. :D

    Yeah.. unfortunately.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Nightfox on Sun Aug 6 17:09:50 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Nightfox to Geri Atricks on Sun Aug 06 2023 12:18 pm

    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Geri Atricks to Nightfox on Sat Aug 05 2023 10:14 pm

    One thing you could do is upload the photos to a hosting site (such
    as Imgur, for instance) and copy & paste links here.

    Yeah, I usually use a URL shortener for things like that. But some web hosting sites (like Imgur) have links that are already fairly short and don't need to be shortened.

    Is 0x0.st fine?

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...The test of the morality of a society is what it does for its children.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to candycane on Mon Aug 7 08:26:04 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: candycane to Nightfox on Sun Aug 06 2023 05:09 pm

    Yeah, I usually use a URL shortener for things like that. But some web
    hosting sites (like Imgur) have links that are already fairly short and
    don't need to be shortened.

    Is 0x0.st fine?

    I'm not familiar with 0x0.st

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Nightfox on Mon Aug 7 12:28:43 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Nightfox to candycane on Mon Aug 07 2023 08:26 am

    I'm not familiar with 0x0.st

    It's a simple temporary file host, you just need to curl post a file there and it returns a link. Super useful.

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...Behind every successful man stands an amazed woman.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Nightfox on Wed Aug 9 00:54:12 2023
    On 06 Aug 23 12:16:22 Nightfox wrote...

    Honestly I'd think it would make more sense to share photos with
    people here on a photo hosting site. If you wanted to share a link
    to it on your BBS's file section, you'd have to first upload it to
    your BBS, and I don't really see the point in uploading such photos
    to your BBS's file section.. However, if you use Apache or some
    other web server on a different port, it would be fairly easy to just
    copy the photos there and share the link.

    To which Darklord replies...

    Yeah, I just threw that out there as an alternative suggesion. Honestly,
    I think posting a tinyURL link to some 'Net site would be the best
    approach. :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Darklord on Thu Aug 10 04:54:00 2023
    Yeah, I just threw that out there as an alternative suggesion. Honestly,
    I think posting a tinyURL link to some 'Net site would be the best approach. :)

    It's pretty straight forward if you run any kind of local web server.. album scripts are a dime a dozen, and you can just run the data directory as a
    share for drag and share...

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Spectre on Thu Aug 10 09:25:04 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Spectre to Darklord on Thu Aug 10 2023 04:54 am

    It's pretty straight forward if you run any kind of local web server.. album scripts are a dime a dozen, and you can just run the data directory as a share for drag and share...

    I do want to set up a public server, but I'm also nervous I'll compromise my home net security by setting one up.

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...Friends may come and friends may go, but enemies accumulate.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Geri Atricks@21:4/102 to candycane on Thu Aug 10 11:55:09 2023
    What's the difference between uuencode and base64? They both seem to be email-friendly encodings..

    Not familiar with base64 so couldn't tell. UUencode/UUdecode take data files and convert them to a text string and then back.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Legends of Yesteryear (furmenservices.net:23322) (21:4/102)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to candycane on Sat Aug 12 04:45:00 2023
    I do want to set up a public server, but I'm also nervous I'll compromise my home net security by setting one up.

    Shrug. Not sure how you're going to manage that, but it depends what you're going run it on I guess...

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Spectre on Fri Aug 11 21:51:45 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Spectre to candycane on Sat Aug 12 2023 04:45 am

    Shrug. Not sure how you're going to manage that, but it depends what you're going run it on I guess...

    No idea either, that's why I don't run one.

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to candycane on Mon Aug 14 08:04:00 2023
    Shrug. Not sure how you're going to manage that, but it depends what you're going run it on I guess...

    No idea either, that's why I don't run one.

    If you just run a static server your chances of anything being able to be hacked is going to be pretty minimal. There's plenty of small footprint servers that don't do a lot other than serve the odd static page.

    If you're going to try and run some fancy dan scripts or some other home brew scripts I might understand the trepidation a bit. Still each to their own.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Darklord on Tue Aug 22 19:03:28 2023
    On 27 Jul 23 13:10:36 Darklord wrote...

    I'd still rather fire up one of my Atari's than sit and look at a
    Windows box. No heart...no spirit...no soul. Microsoft made sure of
    that. :)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Actually was talking to that guy we mentioned in our Zoom meet that had
    the TT for sale... He's also got a PC in an 800xl case that runs Windows
    10 and even uses the XL keyboard.

    I bet that would just fry your brain huh? :)

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Nightfox on Tue Aug 22 19:16:50 2023
    On 06 Aug 23 12:16:22 Nightfox wrote...

    Honestly I'd think it would make more sense to share photos with
    people here on a photo hosting site. If you wanted to share a link
    to it on your BBS's file section, you'd have to first upload it to
    your BBS, and I don't really see the point in uploading such photos
    to your BBS's file section.. However, if you use Apache or some
    other web server on a different port, it would be fairly easy to just
    copy the photos there and share the link.

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Because it's more retro that way.

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From candycane@21:4/141 to Commodore Clifford on Wed Aug 23 00:15:43 2023
    Re: Re: Atari 400; meh.
    By: Commodore Clifford to Darklord on Tue Aug 22 2023 07:03 pm

    Actually was talking to that guy we mentioned in our Zoom meet that had the TT for sale... He's also got a PC in an 800xl case that runs Windows 10 and even uses the XL keyboard.

    That feels wrong..

    candycane

    ===
    user is generated from /dev/urandom

    ...I may not be totally perfect, but parts of me are excellent.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Commodore Clifford on Wed Aug 23 23:34:10 2023
    On 22 Aug 23 19:03:28 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Actually was talking to that guy we mentioned in our Zoom meet that
    had the TT for sale... He's also got a PC in an 800xl case that runs Windows 10 and even uses the XL keyboard.

    I bet that would just fry your brain huh? :)

    To which Darklord replies...

    The thought of that just...boggles my mind. I meany, why? Just why?

    Gutting a perfectly good 800XL to fill it with generic PC crap is (or
    should be!) criminal! :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to candycane on Wed Aug 23 23:49:08 2023
    On 23 Aug 23 00:15:43 candycane wrote...

    That feels wrong..

    candycane

    To which Darklord replies...

    Wrong? That's bordering on blasphemy...! :)



    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Darklord on Thu Aug 24 00:46:34 2023
    On 23 Aug 23 23:34:10 Darklord wrote...

    On 22 Aug 23 19:03:28 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Actually was talking to that guy we mentioned in our Zoom meet
    that had the TT for sale... He's also got a PC in an 800xl case
    that runs Windows 10 and even uses the XL keyboard.

    I bet that would just fry your brain huh? :)

    To which Darklord replies...

    The thought of that just...boggles my mind. I meany, why? Just why?

    Gutting a perfectly good 800XL to fill it with generic PC crap is (or should be!) criminal! :)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Well... now... maybe the innards just were damaged beyond repair, or the innards used to restore a machine with a better case.

    Let's not judge till we see it (he might bring it to VCFMW). After all,
    isn't it more fun to judge when the other guy can actually SEE you
    pointing and laughing at him?

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Commodore Clifford on Tue Aug 29 16:53:16 2023
    On 24 Aug 23 00:46:34 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Well... now... maybe the innards just were damaged beyond repair, or
    the innards used to restore a machine with a better case.

    Let's not judge till we see it (he might bring it to VCFMW). After
    all, isn't it more fun to judge when the other guy can actually SEE
    you pointing and laughing at him?

    To which Darklord replies...

    Okay, that's fair. Meanwhile, I'll patiently wait to see your reaction
    when someone shows up with a repainted Atari 8bit floppy drive... :)



    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Darklord on Tue Aug 29 21:29:16 2023
    On 29 Aug 23 16:53:16 Darklord wrote...

    Okay, that's fair. Meanwhile, I'll patiently wait to see your
    reaction when someone shows up with a repainted Atari 8bit floppy
    drive... :)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    That's a totally different thing. That's just blasphemy. And his
    blaming it on me is just wrong.

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Commodore Clifford on Sat Sep 2 12:30:02 2023
    On 29 Aug 23 21:29:16 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    On 29 Aug 23 16:53:16 Darklord wrote...

    Okay, that's fair. Meanwhile, I'll patiently wait to see your
    reaction when someone shows up with a repainted Atari 8bit floppy drive... :)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    That's a totally different thing. That's just blasphemy. And his
    blaming it on me is just wrong.

    To which Darklord replies...

    <snicker>... :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)