• 386 OS/2 Woes...

    From Abbub@21:2/145 to All on Fri Apr 21 08:38:55 2023
    I've spent the better part of three days trying to get OS/2 up and running
    on a 386DX40. It was having all sorts of intermittent errors, trap errors,
    lock ups, etc. Just all around 'unstable'. CF cards that worked fine on the
    486 were completely broken on the 386.

    "It can't be the memory. POST says it's fine!"

    After all of that, yesterday I was like, "I guess I should check the memory out." Memtest86+ took about 20 seconds to show that something was wrong. Swapped out the memory and it was still seeing the same kind of issues.
    Turned off the cache and the issues went way. Enabled the lower bank of
    cache (128k versus 256k) and it was still working without issues. Turned
    back on upper bank and the problem was back. All of my issues were caused
    by one bad cache chip. :)

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From Ben Collver to Abbub on Fri Apr 21 10:10:43 2023
    Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Abbub to All on Fri Apr 21 2023 08:38:55

    Turned off the cache and the issues went way. Enabled the lower bank of cache (128k versus 256k) and it was still working without issues. Turned back on upper bank and the problem was back. All of my issues were caused by one bad cache chip. :)

    Nice diagnostic work there. :-)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Abbub on Sat Apr 22 10:36:11 2023
    Hi Abbub,

    On Friday April 21 2023, Abbub said to All:

    wrong. Swapped out the memory and it was still seeing the same kind of issues. Turned off the cache and the issues went way. Enabled the lower bank of cache (128k versus 256k) and it was still working without
    issues. Turned back on upper bank and the problem was back. All of my issues were caused by one bad cache chip. :)

    Great job at finding the issue.... I was reading and thought "bad memory",
    then you found it, but in a cache chip!... Do you have the skill's and
    ability to replace it? I gather it's solderd to the board?

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Vorlon on Fri Apr 21 22:09:02 2023
    Great job at finding the issue.... I was reading and thought "bad
    memory", then you found it, but in a cache chip!... Do you have the
    skill's and ability to replace it? I gather it's solderd to the
    board?

    It's not soldered on the board. It's just socketed. A replacement chip has
    been procured. The performance jump between 128k cache and 256k cache on a 386 is not the performance improvement between 0k and 128k, so it's not a *huge* deal. Still, I want everything working as good as it can get, since this is a 386 being asked to run a 4-node BBS.

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Abbub on Sun Apr 23 16:18:51 2023
    Hi Abbub,

    On Friday April 21 2023, Abbub said to Vorlon:

    It's not soldered on the board. It's just socketed. A replacement chip
    has been procured. The performance jump between 128k cache and 256k
    cache on a 386 is not the performance improvement between 0k and 128k,
    so it's not a *huge* deal. Still, I want everything working as good as
    it can get, since this is a 386 being asked to run a 4-node BBS.

    Anything to get a old machine up and going... They need all the love they
    can get. #->

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Vorlon on Sun Apr 23 07:45:44 2023
    Anything to get a old machine up and going... They need all the love
    they can get

    This old guy is actually in pretty good shape. 1 GB CF card for the main
    drive, a Gotek for the floppy, ATI Mach 8, Etherlink III, a dual 16550 serial card, and a Prime2+ IDE card, with the latest 386+ version of the XTIDE universal BIOS running on it. I have a 40 MHz AMD chip in it, 32 MB of RAM,
    and I have replaced that cache chip so now it has a working 256k cache. It's about as 'suped-up' as a 386 can get.

    It's running 4 nodes of the BBS (three telnet, one USR 56k modem) without any issues on Warp 3 Connect. I'm still 'finalizing' some of the changes that
    were made when I moved it from DOS to OS/2, but it's coming together nicely.

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Abbub on Tue Apr 25 14:42:22 2023
    Hi Abbub,

    On Sunday April 23 2023, Abbub said to Vorlon:

    Anything to get a old machine up and going... They need all the love
    they can get

    This old guy is actually in pretty good shape. 1 GB CF card for the main drive, a Gotek for the floppy, ATI Mach 8, Etherlink III, a dual 16550

    I've got a Gotek for my Amiga's. A great way to replace a dead floppy drive when the original's are so hard to source.

    I have a 40 MHz AMD chip in it, 32 MB of RAM, and I have replaced that cache chip so now it has a working A> 256k cache. It's about as 'suped-up' as a 386 can get.

    It's at the sweet spot.. One of first intel based machines was a 386DX40
    with 8mb of ram.. It ran OS/2 3 as well and served as the BBS machine.
    Started with Desqview/Qemm...


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Vorlon on Tue Apr 25 07:30:57 2023
    I've got a Gotek for my Amiga's. A great way to replace a dead floppy
    drive when the original's are so hard to source.

    Yeah, I've got a spare one that was destined for the Amiga 2000, I just never find myself using floppies with it. I suspect that has a lot to do with whdload, but even when I want to install software on it, I just copy it over the network and use diskette images loaded off of the hard drive, rather than fooling around with real floppies. I think the reason I never got around to sticking the Gotek in it is because the whiter beige of the gotek didn't
    match the tan beige of the Amiga 2000's front panel.

    It's at the sweet spot.. One of first intel based machines was a
    386DX40 with 8mb of ram.. It ran OS/2 3 as well and served as the BBS machine. Started with Desqview/Qemm...

    Yeah, I started the same way with this one and then moved it over to OS/2 because I wanted a network stack that actually supported binkd.

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Abbub on Wed Apr 26 11:34:51 2023
    Hi Abbub,

    On Tuesday April 25 2023, Abbub said to Vorlon:

    I've got a Gotek for my Amiga's. A great way to replace a dead floppy
    drive when the original's are so hard to source.

    Yeah, I've got a spare one that was destined for the Amiga 2000, I just never find myself using floppies with it. I suspect that has a lot to do with whdload, but even when I want to install software on it, I just
    copy it over the network and use diskette images loaded off of the hard drive, rather than fooling around with real floppies.

    That's a limit on the amiga's, when a *new* network card for the big box
    units are $200AUD. At least with my A1200, I'd already had the pcmcia card
    and just had to find it.. I was also given a WIFI one that works well to.

    I'm not a big game player, so the gotek has more of the install files, and utils in the various ADF's..

    I think the reason I never got around to sticking the Gotek in it is because the whiter A> beige of the gotek didn't match the tan beige of the Amiga 2000's front
    panel.

    Having multiple Amiga's, I put mine into a external case so it can be used
    with all of them.

    It's at the sweet spot.. One of my first intel based machines was a
    386DX40 with 8mb of ram.. It ran OS/2 3 as well and served as the BBS
    machine. Started with Desqview/Qemm...

    Yeah, I started the same way with this one and then moved it over to
    OS/2 because I wanted a network stack that actually supported binkd.

    Was that back in the day or now? Netwoking via lan was just at the very
    start and not many people had it.


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Vorlon on Wed Apr 26 07:38:04 2023
    That's a limit on the amiga's, when a *new* network card for the big
    box units are $200AUD. At least with my A1200, I'd already had the
    pcmcia card and just had to find it.. I was also given a WIFI one
    that works well to.

    I think I broke down and bought a x-surf for the Amiga 2000...probably about
    a decade ago. It was expensive (I want to say $150?) but it put an end to a
    lot of other shenanigans I'd been failing at to get reasonable access to the network. These days I think a lot of people just stick a raspberry pi in
    their amiga and call it a day. lol

    Was that back in the day or now? Netwoking via lan was just at the very start and not many people had it.

    Back in the day I moved the board from DesqView to OS/2 because I wanted
    better multi-tasking. The BBS computer was my *only* computer. The system
    that I'm on now I moved from DesqView to OS/2 because a) I wanted better multitasking for multiple telnet nodes and b) I wanted to divorce it
    completely from the pi that was sort of acting as a 'gateway' to the wider network, which required a network stack so I could run binkd on the actual
    bbs machine.

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Abbub on Fri Apr 28 12:02:22 2023
    Hi Abbub,

    On Wednesday April 26 2023, Abbub said to Vorlon:

    I think I broke down and bought a x-surf for the Amiga 2000...probably about a decade ago. It was expensive (I want to say $150?) but it put an end to a lot of other shenanigans I'd been failing at to get reasonable access to the network.

    I have the original X-Surf. Been looking at the new 100mb version, but not at it's stupid price!.

    Then I could have both my A3000 & A4000 networked.

    Was that back in the day or now? Netwoking via lan was just at the very
    start and not many people had it.

    Back in the day I moved the board from DesqView to OS/2 because I wanted better multi-tasking. The BBS computer was my *only* computer. The
    system that I'm on now I moved from DesqView to OS/2 because a) I wanted better multitasking for multiple telnet nodes and b) I wanted to divorce

    Yep. Better multitasking! We now that that for granted!

    Plus a GUI, I'm more happy in the command line, but some things are just
    better with a GUI. Ie: Amiga OS is better at the GUI, but a lot can still be done on the command line.



    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Vorlon on Fri Apr 28 07:56:19 2023
    Plus a GUI, I'm more happy in the command line, but some things are
    just better with a GUI. Ie: Amiga OS is better at the GUI, but a lot
    can still be done on the command line.

    Honestly...the first thing I did on OS/2 installs back in the day, and the first thing I do now is: a) install 4OS2 and 4DOS, and b) disable the
    workplace shell. Especially on modest machines like this one, WPS is a resource hog.

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Fri Apr 28 07:06:00 2023
    Vorlon wrote to Abbub <=-

    Yep. Better multitasking! We now that that for granted!

    I'll say. I ran the BBS under DOS for several years, then ran DOS apps
    as a window under OS/2, then ran OS/2 binaries. Running OS/2 native, I
    couldn't tell there was any processing going on, and this was on a lowly
    486.

    I ditched OS/2 after Windows95 came out, and remember trying to get it
    to run a DOS BBS comfortably, and needing idle TSRs, rebooting
    occasionally, and generally not having a good time of it. Callers were
    on the decline, so it had less of an impact.

    By the time 2000 rolled around, Intel PCs had enough horsepower to make
    up for Windows 9x shortcomings and Windows 2000 was released. But, by
    that time, I was down to a caller or two a day.




    ... Only a part, not the whole
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Abbub on Fri Apr 28 14:36:37 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Abbub to Vorlon on Fri Apr 28 2023 07:56 am

    Honestly...the first thing I did on OS/2 installs back in the day, and the first thing I do now is: a) install 4OS2 and 4DOS, and b) disable the workplace shell. Especially on modest machines like this one, WPS is a resource hog.

    How would you multitask? Could you open multiple command prompts or graphics programs?
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Abbub on Sat Apr 29 09:33:02 2023
    Hi Abbub,

    On Friday April 28 2023, Abbub said to Vorlon:

    Plus a GUI, I'm more happy in the command line, but some things are
    just better with a GUI. Ie: Amiga OS is better at the GUI, but a lot
    can still be done on the command line.

    Honestly...the first thing I did on OS/2 installs back in the day, and
    the first thing I do now is: a) install 4OS2 and 4DOS, and b) disable
    the workplace shell. Especially on modest machines like this one, WPS
    is a resource hog.

    Fixpack's was my first thing, then 4OS2!, then a decent file manager #-)
    like Dirctory Opus from the Amiga.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directory_Opus

    I can't remember the name of the OS/2 software that was like it...



    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Apr 29 09:37:35 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Friday April 28 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    Yep. Better multitasking! We now take that for granted!

    I'll say. I ran the BBS under DOS for several years, then ran DOS apps
    as a window under OS/2, then ran OS/2 binaries. Running OS/2 native, I couldn't tell there was any processing going on, and this was on a
    lowly 486.

    I went along the same path, but went for OS/2 biniraries first if there was one... Maximus, Squish, Binkley was the mix.

    I ditched OS/2 after Windows95 came out, and remember trying to get it
    to run a DOS BBS comfortably, and needing idle TSRs, rebooting occasionally, and generally not having a good time of it. Callers were
    on the decline, so it had less of an impact.

    I never ran a BBS on windows, due to the above reasons.. #-)

    By the time 2000 rolled around, Intel PCs had enough horsepower to make
    up for Windows 9x shortcomings and Windows 2000 was released.

    Windows 2000, was the first stable verion of windows.. It could even run
    os/2 console progs... #-)

    But, by that time, I was down to a caller or two a day.

    Yes the BBS's around here started to see less and less callers from the late 1990's. I partnerd with another sysop, and we setup a small ISP. When I left there was 22 incomeing lines for general callers, and two dedicated to a
    couple of clients...

    I got out just in time, as a year latter ADSL at a huge 128/256K was
    starting up....





    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Poindexter Fortran on Sat Apr 29 08:47:43 2023
    *** Quoting Poindexter Fortran to Abbub dated 04-28-23 ***
    How would you multitask? Could you open multiple command prompts or
    graphics programs?

    So you have two options. One is to use TShell instead of Workplace shell. That just gives you a TUI program launcher and leaves the system completely text based. The other option is to set the run workplace to CMD.EXE (or 4OS2.exe in my case) so that presentation manager still launches, but workplace shell doesn't. That's what I'm currently doing. In either case, ctrl-esc pulls up a list of running windows. you can run multiple windows just like you normally would, although in the case of using TShell they're all full-screened.

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Vorlon on Sat Apr 29 08:51:21 2023
    *** Quoting Vorlon to Abbub dated 04-29-23 ***
    Fixpack's was my first thing, then 4OS2!, then a decent file manager
    I can't remember the name of the OS/2 software that was like it...

    Yeah, I sort of glossed 'fixpacks' in with installing the operating system. Norton Commander was a Presentation Manager DOpus / XTree type utility. I seem to recall using Midnight Commander, though, which was text based.

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Sat Apr 29 07:50:00 2023
    Vorlon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I went along the same path, but went for OS/2 biniraries first if there was one... Maximus, Squish, Binkley was the mix.

    I picked the same apps under DOS, with the intention of eventually
    moving to OS/2...

    Windows 2000, was the first stable verion of windows.. It could even
    run os/2 console progs... #-)

    That, I missed. I ran Qedit for OS/2 as part of my offline reading
    setup, it was much smoother under Windows 2000 than Qedit for DOS. The
    DOS version was a little laggy.


    ... A NEW LIFE AWAITS YOU IN THE OFF-WORLD COLONIES!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Abbub on Sun Apr 30 11:00:24 2023
    Hi Abbub,

    On Saturday April 29 2023, Abbub said to Vorlon:

    *** Quoting Vorlon to Abbub dated 04-29-23 ***
    Fixpack's was my first thing, then 4OS2!, then a decent file manager
    I can't remember the name of the OS/2 software that was like it...

    Yeah, I sort of glossed 'fixpacks' in with installing the operating
    system. Norton Commander was a Presentation Manager DOpus / XTree type utility. I seem to recall using Midnight Commander, though, which was
    text based.

    Humm it wan't one of those... "Dirmaster' is comming to mind right now though....

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Apr 30 11:02:26 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Saturday April 29 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    I went along the same path, but went for OS/2 biniraries first if
    there was one... Maximus, Squish, Binkley was the mix.

    I picked the same apps under DOS, with the intention of eventually
    moving to OS/2...

    That was one of the reasons that OS/2 apps didn't take over more... People
    just ran the DOS verions of the programs, after changing to the OS.

    They made the DOS compatability so good that it was like shooting them self
    in the foot. If the split between IBM/MS didn't happen, we would mostly be running OS/2 now.

    Windows 2000, was the first stable verion of windows.. It could even
    run os/2 console progs... #-)

    That, I missed. I ran Qedit for OS/2 as part of my offline reading
    setup, it was much smoother under Windows 2000 than Qedit for DOS. The
    DOS version was a little laggy.

    The fact that Windoes 2000 could do that shows how much of the code MS took from the joint venture.

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Abbub on Sun Apr 30 10:43:00 2023
    Abbub wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-

    So you have two options. One is to use TShell instead of Workplace
    shell. That just gives you a TUI program launcher and leaves the system completely text based. The other option is to set the run workplace to CMD.EXE (or 4OS2.exe in my case) so that presentation manager still launches, but workplace shell doesn't. That's what I'm currently doing.
    In either case, ctrl-esc pulls up a list of running windows. you can
    run multiple windows just like you normally would, although in the case
    of using TShell they're all full-screened.

    Now, it's coming back to me. I ran OS/2 1.1 and 1.2 at work, and I'm
    pretty sure those were pre-WPS.

    OK, now I'm thinking I need to fire up an OS/2 VM.



    ... UNPRISON YOUR THINK RHINO
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Sun Apr 30 10:48:00 2023
    Vorlon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I picked the same apps under DOS, with the intention of eventually
    moving to OS/2...

    That was one of the reasons that OS/2 apps didn't take over more...
    People just ran the DOS verions of the programs, after changing to the
    OS.

    I'd heard that Microsoft made it very easy for developers to get SDKs
    and develop on Windows, whereas OS/2 development tools were pricy and
    harder to get. That seemed to jibe with what I'd heard.

    They made the DOS compatability so good that it was like shooting them self in the foot. If the split between IBM/MS didn't happen, we would mostly be running OS/2 now.

    I didn't think it was DOS support so much that hampered them, by the
    time GUI apps rolled around Windows got them first. The OS/2 graphical
    app market felt like the B team of apps, or names that were associated
    with corporate IT, like Lotus and WordPerfect.

    The fact that Windoes 2000 could do that shows how much of the code MS took from the joint venture.

    I'd wished you could add OS/2 support to modern OSes - imagine being
    able to natively run OS/2 BBS console binaries today.







    ... All of my certifications are self-signed.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Poindexter Fortran on Sun Apr 30 17:48:33 2023
    Now, it's coming back to me. I ran OS/2 1.1 and 1.2 at work, and I'm
    pretty sure those were pre-WPS.

    Yeah, presentation manager / workplace shell wasn't a thing until OS/2 2.0. TShell would look very similar to the main interface in OS/2 1.x.

    ---
    * Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Vorlon on Mon May 1 08:31:03 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Vorlon to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Apr 29 2023 09:37 am

    Windows 2000, was the first stable verion of windows.. It could even run os/2 console progs... #-)

    Wasn't Windows NT (before Windows 2000) supposed to be fairly stable? Windows NT was always targeted toward businesses. And I heard NT was based on a fork of OS/2 that Microsoft got when they split with IBM - and that's why it (along with Windows 2000, which was based on NT) was able to run OS/2 console programs.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue May 2 11:27:51 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Sunday April 30 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    That was one of the reasons that OS/2 apps didn't take over more...
    People just ran the DOS verions of the programs, after changing to the
    OS.

    I'd heard that Microsoft made it very easy for developers to get SDKs
    and develop on Windows, whereas OS/2 development tools were pricy and harder to get. That seemed to jibe with what I'd heard.

    Typical of MS,, screw the other guy over and make our product look better.

    They made the DOS compatability so good that it was like shooting them
    self in the foot. If the split between IBM/MS didn't happen, we would
    mostly be running OS/2 now.

    I didn't think it was DOS support so much that hampered them, by the
    time GUI apps rolled around Windows got them first. The OS/2 graphical
    app market felt like the B team of apps, or names that were associated with corporate IT, like Lotus and WordPerfect.

    Why would you dev a product that can run on the most popular os, when the
    next can also run products for the other os... Bake the cake once!

    The fact that Windoes 2000 could do that shows how much of the code MS
    took from the joint venture.

    If the current holders of the os/2 licence, didn't charge so much for it, I would have given both a look... At $250AUD aprox. it's just not worth it. I
    run linux on my personal machine(s), even though I do have licences for that other os, and support it in my $$ job.. I'd rather not have to deal with it
    in my own time....


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Nightfox on Tue May 2 11:32:12 2023
    Hi Nightfox,

    On Monday May 01 2023, Nightfox said to Vorlon:

    Windows 2000, was the first stable verion of windows.. It could even
    run os/2 console progs... #-)

    Wasn't Windows NT (before Windows 2000) supposed to be fairly stable? Windows NT was always targeted toward businesses.

    Yes it was stable, but a lot of software didn't like running on it as it
    really was aimed at business people and server op's.

    And I heard NT was based on a fork of OS/2 that Microsoft got when they split with IBM - N> and that's why it (along with Windows 2000, which was based on NT) was
    able to run OS/2 console programs.

    Yes that's correct, both NT/2000 has origins in OS/2.. It wasn't long though before MS pulled that support though.



    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Nightfox on Mon May 1 23:42:22 2023
    On 01 May 23 08:31:03 Nightfox wrote...

    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes... By: Vorlon to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat
    Apr 29 2023 09:37 am

    Windows 2000, was the first stable verion of windows.. It could
    even run os/2 console progs... #-)

    Wasn't Windows NT (before Windows 2000) supposed to be fairly stable?
    Windows NT was always targeted toward businesses. And I heard NT
    was based on a fork of OS/2 that Microsoft got when they split with
    IBM - and that's why it (along with Windows 2000, which was based on
    NT) was able to run OS/2 console programs.

    Nightfox --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    I remember NT Workstation 4 very fondly. I was running a business at the
    time and had made a system for a client and as the DSP program dictated
    at the time, you had to buy the OS's in a multi-pack. So I used one of
    them for the OS on my office machine.

    Man, I loved that. In fact, right now, I still have the "Prarie Wind" background on my monitors. I had been using other things, but one day I
    just got tired of choosing and the nostalgia bug hit me. Been with it
    ever since.

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Roon@21:4/148 to Nightfox on Tue May 2 07:33:08 2023
    Hello Nightfox,

    01 May 23 08:31, you wrote to Vorlon:

    Windows 2000, was the first stable verion of windows.. It could
    even run os/2 console progs... #-)

    Wasn't Windows NT (before Windows 2000) supposed to be fairly stable? Windows NT was always targeted toward businesses. And I heard NT was
    based on a fork of OS/2 that Microsoft got when they split with IBM -
    and that's why it (along with Windows 2000, which was based on NT) was
    able to run OS/2 console programs.

    afaik NT4 was stable 3.xx not really.

    but i just read about it, because i've switched from OS/2 directly to Linux.

    Regards,
    --
    dp

    telnet://bbs.roonsbbs.hu:1212 <<=-

    ... Uptime: 0d 14h 1m 32s
    --- GoldED/2 1.1.4.7+EMX
    * Origin: Roon's BBS - Budapest, HUNGARY (21:4/148)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Nightfox on Tue May 2 19:22:33 2023
    Windows 2000, was the first stable verion of windows.. It could even
    run os/2 console progs... #-)

    Wasn't Windows NT (before Windows 2000) supposed to be fairly stable? Windows NT was always targeted toward businesses. And I heard NT was based on a fork of OS/2 that Microsoft got when they split with IBM - and that's why it (along with Windows 2000, which was based on NT) was able to run OS/2 console programs.

    NT was very stable, but the UX was a bit (much more) clunky prior to Win2k. There were bits taken from a lot of places that landed in NT, though given the early cross platform nature of NT, a lot was rewritten. If you watch Dave's Garage on YouTube, he goes into a bit of it from his experience in a lot of videos.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Vorlon on Tue May 2 19:27:28 2023
    I'd heard that Microsoft made it very easy for developers to get
    SDKs and develop on Windows, whereas OS/2 development tools were
    pricy and harder to get. That seemed to jibe with what I'd heard.

    Typical of MS,, screw the other guy over and make our product look better.

    That was IBM's decision far more than MS.

    If the current holders of the os/2 licence, didn't charge so much for it, I would have given both a look... At $250AUD aprox. it's just not worth it. I run linux on my personal machine(s), even though I do have licences for that other os, and support it in my $$ job.. I'd rather not have to deal with it in my own time....

    Unfortunately, the bulk of OS/2 use is a lot of embedded and legacy applications that are their bread and butter. Even at the price they charge it's likely they aren't making enough money to keep a lot of people on payroll, so aren't seeing many advances. At $200 each, it takes a *LOT* of sales to cover even one six-figure developer salary. And most people aren't willing to pay anything for an OS.

    Main reason MS doesn't charge for upgrades anymore is the expense for supporting older versions is higher than the money they made from individual upgrade sales.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Roon on Tue May 2 19:31:47 2023
    afaik NT4 was stable 3.xx not really.

    Man, totally displaced NT4 from my memory... NT4 was decent, 3.5x was really clunky... Win2K was a pretty nice OS, even if it didn't do games. Ran it as my main OS for a long while until XP SP3, and even then, I'd copy over the MCE UI to it, as I didn't like the Fisher Price look.

    Win2k with LiteStep was great.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Vorlon on Tue May 2 13:25:24 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Vorlon to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue May 02 2023 11:27 am

    I'd heard that Microsoft made it very easy for developers to get
    SDKs and develop on Windows, whereas OS/2 development tools were
    pricy and harder to get. That seemed to jibe with what I'd heard.

    Typical of MS,, screw the other guy over and make our product look better.

    IMO that doesn't really seem like MS screwing the other guy. MS just wanted to make it easy to develop software for their platform, which I think is understandable. IBM was shooting themselves in the foot a bit by charging a lot for their SDKs for OS/2.

    A better example of MS screwing the other guy to make their own product look better would be (from what I heard) making Windows 3.x not run on DR-DOS but it would run on MS-DOS.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Tracker1 on Tue May 2 13:29:36 2023
    Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Tracker1 to Roon on Tue May 02 2023 07:31 pm

    Man, totally displaced NT4 from my memory... NT4 was decent, 3.5x was really clunky... Win2K was a pretty nice OS, even if it didn't do games.

    Actually, wasn't Windows 2000 the first version of an NT-based Windows that could run a recent (at the time) version of DirectX? I ran Windows 2000 for a little while and remember it as the version of Windows where they were able to unite 9x and NT, and I was able to play some of my favorite PC games on Windows 2000. Windows XP did end up becoming a lot more well-known though.

    Ran it as my main OS for a long while until XP SP3, and even then, I'd copy over the MCE UI to it, as I didn't like the Fisher Price look.

    I only used Windows 2000 for a short time. In late 2001, I went to a Microsoft Visual Studio .NET release event, where they were giving away full copies of Visual Studio 2002 and Windows XP. I got my copy of Windows XP from that event, and I ran that for years. I thought it was cool that I got a legit copy of Windows XP for free from there and was able to use it for so long.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Tracker1 on Wed May 3 10:50:33 2023
    Hi Tracker1,

    On Tuesday May 02 2023, Tracker1 said to Vorlon:

    I'd heard that Microsoft made it very easy for developers to get SDKs
    and develop on Windows, whereas OS/2 development tools were pricy and
    harder to get. That seemed to jibe with what I'd heard.

    Typical of MS,, screw the other guy over and make our product look
    better.

    That was IBM's decision far more than MS.

    I wasn't on the IBM bandwagon, but did see more of that thing at the time
    from MS, when at work... I'd personally moved away from OS/2, to
    FreeBSD/Linux by then.

    If the current holders of the os/2 licence, didn't charge so much for
    it, I would have given both a look... At $250AUD aprox. it's just not
    worth it. I run linux on my personal machine(s), even though I do have
    licences for that other os, and support it in my $$ job.. I'd rather
    not have to deal with it in my own time....

    Main reason MS doesn't charge for upgrades anymore is the expense for supporting older versions is higher than the money they made from individual upgrade sales.

    MS are making more money from there "Cloud" products and Business accounts,
    so they can aford to give the home user a free bone.. #-)

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Nightfox on Wed May 3 10:54:18 2023
    Hi Nightfox,

    On Tuesday May 02 2023, Nightfox said to Vorlon:

    Typical of MS,, screw the other guy over and make our product look
    better.

    IMO that doesn't really seem like MS screwing the other guy. MS just wanted to make it easy to develop software for their platform, which I think is understandable. IBM was shooting themselves in the foot a bit
    by charging a lot for their SDKs for OS/2.

    Oh ok.. I did see back in the day, MS purchasing the rights or the whole company to just kill a product.. Then x time latter come out with there own version that was worse than the initial product.

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Vorlon on Tue May 2 21:03:49 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Vorlon to Nightfox on Wed May 03 2023 10:54 am

    Typical of MS,, screw the other guy over and make our product look
    better.

    IMO that doesn't really seem like MS screwing the other guy. MS
    just wanted to make it easy to develop software for their platform,
    which I think is understandable. IBM was shooting themselves in
    the foot a bit by charging a lot for their SDKs for OS/2.

    Oh ok.. I did see back in the day, MS purchasing the rights or the whole company to just kill a product.. Then x time latter come out with there own version that was worse than the initial product.

    That was a different thing entirely. And Microsoft isn't the only tech company to do that.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Tracker1 on Tue May 2 19:57:38 2023
    Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Tracker1 to Roon on Tue May 02 2023 07:31 pm

    Man, totally displaced NT4 from my memory... NT4 was decent, 3.5x was really clunky... Win2K was a pretty nice OS, even if it didn't do games.

    We ran Informix databases and DNS/DHCP on 3.51, and that was about all it could handle. It was a definite warning shot across the bow to our UNIX-based DNS and Novell file and print sharing.

    Win2k with LiteStep was great.

    I went to litestep.net a couple of days ago, considering running LiteStep on the BBS - since I only run a couple of apps. Configuring a desktop's worth of apps was a pain, but I loved having a dock with semi-live tiles for things like Winamp.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Tue May 2 20:03:26 2023
    Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Tue May 02 2023 01:29 pm

    full copies of Visual Studio 2002 and Windows XP. I got my copy of Windows XP from that event, and I ran that for years. I thought it was cool that I got a legit copy of Windows XP for free from there and was able to use it for so long.

    I worked for a large internet auction site when Windows 8 came out, and Microsoft invited us to their Silicon Valley campus their dog-and-pony show for Windows 8 in call center environments.

    (I loved the Windows 8 ui for a limited menu of apps for a call center, where you don't customize the environment at all. That plus some new GPO tweaks were pretty cool...)

    We had a lunch break and got to go to the Microsoft employee store. I bought a Windows 8.1 CD with license for $15, a copy of Office for the same price, and other were buying a year of Xbox Live for something like $25. Well worth it - my 8.1 license key works with Windows 10!

    (I went to the mini-kitchen for a cup of coffee during a break and heard a contractor talking to a Microsoft employee in what seemed like a pre-sales meeting. He asked the employee to give him "his gmail address" so he could send him some info. I don't think he got any further business from them...)
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Tue May 2 20:04:59 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Vorlon to Tracker1 on Wed May 03 2023 10:50 am

    MS are making more money from there "Cloud" products and Business accounts, so they can aford to give the home user a free bone.. #-)

    Free? There's a Microsoft tax we pay on any PC that's got a COE or an embedded license - which is pretty much any PC except for niche Linux PCs these days.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Tue May 2 20:07:00 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Vorlon to Nightfox on Wed May 03 2023 10:54 am

    Oh ok.. I did see back in the day, MS purchasing the rights or the whole company to just kill a product.. Then x time latter come out with there own version that was worse than the initial product.

    My co-sysop in the '90s worked for Addstor, a disk compression product. Microsoft essentially plagiarized Stacker, made Windows not work well with Addstor's product, then came out with a free compression tool and paid chunp change to the makers of the product they plagiarized - which was no longer a viable product.

    Microsoft, bastards they were back then.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed May 3 09:09:04 2023
    Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Tue May 02 2023 08:03 pm

    I worked for a large internet auction site when Windows 8 came out, and Microsoft invited us to their Silicon Valley campus their dog-and-pony show for Windows 8 in call center environments.

    We had a lunch break and got to go to the Microsoft employee store. I bought a Windows 8.1 CD with license for $15, a copy of Office for the same price, and other were buying a year of Xbox Live for something like $25. Well worth it - my 8.1 license key works with Windows 10!

    That's pretty cool. It's always nice to find some deals like that.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Nightfox on Wed May 3 16:36:37 2023
    Actually, wasn't Windows 2000 the first version of an NT-based Windows that could run a recent (at the time) version of DirectX? I ran Windows 2000 for a little while and remember it as the version of Windows where they were able to unite 9x and NT, and I was able to play some of my favorite PC games on Windows 2000. Windows XP did end up becoming a lot more well-known though.

    I think the Win2K had decent enough OpenGL support, but not DirectX iirc, XP was the first windows with DX support. I think most of the DOS games also had issues running, at least audio and inputs were an issue in Win2K as well.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed May 3 16:42:23 2023
    $25. Well worth it - my 8.1 license key works with Windows 10!

    If you do a clean install, keys back to Windows 7 work with Windows 11.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Mike Dippel@21:4/176 to Nightfox on Wed May 3 12:59:00 2023
    On 5/3/2023 9:16 AM, Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:


    I worked for a large internet auction site when Windows 8 came out, and Microsoft invited us to their Silicon Valley campus their dog-and-pony show for Windows 8 in call center environments.

    We had a lunch break and got to go to the Microsoft employee store. I bought a Windows 8.1 CD with license for $15, a copy of Office for the same price, and other were buying a year of Xbox Live for something like
    $25. Well worth it - my 8.1 license key works with Windows 10!

    That's pretty cool. It's always nice to find some deals like that.

    Nightfox

    My wife and I went to Seattle and visited Microsoft. I saw they has a store there so I
    tried to enter. It was for Employees only. Not sure why that was, but I left very
    disgruntled.

    Mike Dippel

    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
    * Origin: The Hobby Line! BBS - hobbylinebbs.com (21:4/176)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Tracker1 on Wed May 3 13:59:58 2023
    Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Wed May 03 2023 04:36 pm

    Actually, wasn't Windows 2000 the first version of an NT-based
    Windows that could run a recent (at the time) version of DirectX? I

    I think the Win2K had decent enough OpenGL support, but not DirectX iirc, XP was the first windows with DX support. I think most of the DOS games also had issues running, at least audio and inputs were an issue in Win2K as well.

    Windows XP was definitely not the first Windows with DirectX support. DirectX has been around since the mid-90s, and DirectX was initially available for Windows 95:

    http://falconfly.3dfx.pl/directx.htm

    Until Windows 2000, I remember a problem with Windows NT 4.0 and earlier was that the newest version of DirectX supported by NT was a fairly old verison, meaning newer Windows games wouldn't run on NT. Windows 2000 supported a much newer version of DirectX, which allowed a lot more games to run on it.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Mike Dippel on Wed May 3 14:02:34 2023
    Re: RE: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Mike Dippel to Nightfox on Wed May 03 2023 12:59 pm

    My wife and I went to Seattle and visited Microsoft. I saw they has a store there so I
    tried to enter. It was for Employees only. Not sure why that was, but I left very
    disgruntled.

    Some companies do have an employee store where employees can buy the company's products at a discount. It might not even be a physical store (I used to work at Intel, and Intel employees can buy Intel CPUs at a discount through an internal web site). Some companies open their employee store to a limited number of non-employees for a certain time, but that usually requires some kind of application (through another company, for instance). I wouldn't necessarily expect a store at a company like Microsoft to be open to the public.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Nightfox on Thu May 4 09:37:34 2023
    Hi Nightfox,

    On Tuesday May 02 2023, Nightfox said to Vorlon:

    Oh ok.. I did see back in the day, MS purchasing the rights or the
    whole company to just kill a product.. Then x time latter come out
    with there own version that was worse than the initial product.

    That was a different thing entirely. And Microsoft isn't the only tech company to do that.

    No they are not, but they are one of the well known ones for doing just
    that.

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu May 4 09:38:25 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Tuesday May 02 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    MS are making more money from there "Cloud" products and Business
    accounts, so they can aford to give the home user a free bone.. #-)

    Free? There's a Microsoft tax we pay on any PC that's got a COE or an embedded license - which is pretty much any PC except for niche Linux
    PCs these days.

    No one is forced to pay for windows, unless you go for a name brand (Ie: HP/Dell etc).. They have deals with MS. There is *nothing* stopping you from putting on another OS from a non name brand pc.

    I re-did a pc for a friend the other week, and after lending her a laptop
    with linux on it, the new pc (to her) has linux on it as well.

    It originally came with NO os. It's a Intel NUC.


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu May 4 09:43:27 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Tuesday May 02 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    Oh ok.. I did see back in the day, MS purchasing the rights or the
    whole company to just kill a product.. Then x time latter come out
    with there own version that was worse than the initial product.

    My co-sysop in the '90s worked for Addstor, a disk compression product. Microsoft essentially plagiarized Stacker, made Windows not work well
    with Addstor's product, then came out with a free compression tool and paid chunp change to the makers of the product they plagiarized - which was no longer a viable product.

    Clasic example of what I was refering to..

    Microsoft, bastards they were back then.

    In some ways they still are. It took, what two CEO changes for them to even acknoledge that other operating systems even exists. Ie: the linux
    subsystem.

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu May 4 09:58:29 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Tuesday May 02 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    MS are making more money from there "Cloud" products and Business
    accounts, so they can aford to give the home user a free bone.. #-)

    Free? There's a Microsoft tax we pay on any PC that's got a COE or an embedded license - which is pretty much any PC except for niche Linux
    PCs these days.

    I'll add to refer to the "uprades" from Win7 to Win10, then Win10 to Win11
    (Not that I like win11.. It's so frustreating that MS want's people to have
    a MS account to jyst even use the machine... They are now pushing that onto
    the Pro versions if it's not linked to a domain... arghhh.....

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From HusTler@21:2/158 to Vorlon on Thu May 4 08:15:09 2023
    embedded license - which is pretty much any PC except for niche Linux PCs these days.

    "niche" linux? I feel insulted. I won't be under the Bill Gates spell.

    ... This virus requires Microsoft Windows 3.x

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: piranha.acid.org:27 with RIPScrip Support! (21:2/158)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Thu May 4 06:45:00 2023
    Vorlon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    No one is forced to pay for windows, unless you go for a name brand
    (Ie: HP/Dell etc).. They have deals with MS. There is *nothing*
    stopping you from putting on another OS from a non name brand pc.

    Agreed, albeit in the past Microsoft worked with the courts to have
    computer manufacturers pay them whether Microsoft was installed or not.
    This was a condition of selling any Microsoft products and was an
    example of their abuse of monopoly power in the '90s.

    To clarify, there's nothing stopping you from installing alternate OSes,
    just that you were paying for Microsoft whether you used it or not.

    Enterprise customers get it twice - pay for an embedded Windows license,
    then image the PC with your corporate image and pay for that image, too.

    I re-did a pc for a friend the other week, and after lending her a
    laptop with linux on it, the new pc (to her) has linux on it as well.

    It originally came with NO os. It's a Intel NUC.

    I suppose Intel is the Bigger Gorilla in the room. :)



    ... You can only make one dot at a time
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Thu May 4 06:55:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Until Windows 2000, I remember a problem with Windows NT 4.0 and
    earlier was that the newest version of DirectX supported by NT was a fairly old verison, meaning newer Windows games wouldn't run on NT. Windows 2000 supported a much newer version of DirectX, which allowed a lot more games to run on it.

    I worked at a gaming company back in the '90s, and our parent company's consultant flew in and wanted me to upgrade all of accounting's desktops
    to NT 4.0 Workstation to resolve crappy performance. Unfortunately, they
    didn't have budget for resources, licenses, and didn't realize that
    everyone played a role in QA for the games - and gaming after hours was
    a part of the culture.

    Lesson one of consulting is "Never tell the client No, tell them how
    much Yes costs..."

    But more importantly, lesson two is "Know your customer's customers..."



    ... Onward, to meatspace!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Thu May 4 07:00:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Mike Dippel <=-

    Some companies do have an employee store where employees can buy the company's products at a discount. It might not even be a physical store
    (I used to work at Intel, and Intel employees can buy Intel CPUs at a discount through an internal web site). Some companies open their employee store to a limited number of non-employees for a certain time, but that usually requires some kind of application (through another company, for instance). I wouldn't necessarily expect a store at a company like Microsoft to be open to the public.

    Yes, it's an employee perk, and Microsoft knows to use it as a way to
    woo their customers.


    .::PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT::.

    If you work for a medium to large corporation, many of the vendors the
    company uses may offer employee discounts. Dell, Lenovo, Microsoft,
    Verizon, AT&T and TMobile all have programs where companies, if they
    choose, can offer discounted products to their customers.

    The Microsoft Home Use Program is pretty good, you can get a year of
    Microsoft 365 for 5 people for less than the price of one for large corporations, and the Dell deal works out to around 10% off of their
    lowest price. Ask your friendly neighborhood IT manager if they offer
    any vendor benefits.

    .:: END ANNOUNCEMENT END ANNOUNCEMENT ::.



    ... Onward, to meatspace!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu May 4 09:14:16 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Thu May 04 2023 06:55 am

    I worked at a gaming company back in the '90s, and our parent company's consultant flew in and wanted me to upgrade all of accounting's desktops to NT 4.0 Workstation to resolve crappy performance. Unfortunately, they didn't have budget for resources, licenses, and didn't realize that everyone played a role in QA for the games - and gaming after hours was
    a part of the culture.

    Lesson one of consulting is "Never tell the client No, tell them how
    much Yes costs..."

    But more importantly, lesson two is "Know your customer's customers..."

    I can imagine that didn't work very well..

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri May 5 15:30:46 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Thursday May 04 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    No one is forced to pay for windows, unless you go for a name brand
    (Ie: HP/Dell etc).. They have deals with MS. There is *nothing*
    stopping you from putting on another OS from a non name brand pc.

    Agreed, albeit in the past Microsoft worked with the courts to have computer manufacturers pay them whether Microsoft was installed or not. This was a condition of selling any Microsoft products and was an
    example of their abuse of monopoly power in the '90s.

    Can't say I remember or heard about that going on here (Australia). What I
    do remember is so much software was written for that MS product that it was rare to not sell a PC with it installed (OEM)..

    I no longer work in the cusumer space, but small/medium bussness and as a result 99% of installs use that product...

    What the avreage person dosn't understand is that due to that products bloat
    it takes a tank to run... Do the same task on Linux/BSD and it will run with
    a quarter of the requirements.




    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri May 5 15:38:57 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    Lesson one of consulting is "Never tell the client No, tell them how
    much Yes costs..."

    But more importantly, lesson two is "Know your customer's customers..."

    hahah! I had a now xclient get quoted I7 dell pc's for a POS (Point Of
    Sale) system... I just walked away laughing! They are now paying them on a lease at twice the cost for what I could have done the job for...

    You *dont* need I7 based machines to do POS work, a entry I5 (Gen 9 or 10), would have done the job.



    Btw: This was after the owner passed away, and the simple (His not all
    there) son took over the buisness... They are also now on a $1500 per month service agreement..... The mind boggles.


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Vorlon on Fri May 5 09:20:44 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Vorlon to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri May 05 2023 03:30 pm

    What the avreage person dosn't understand is that due to that products bloat it takes a tank to run... Do the same task on Linux/BSD and it will run with a quarter of the requirements.

    And back in the 90s (when Linux was still fairly new), the competition was between Windows and OS/2 (and to some extent, GeoWorks Ensemble had been around for PCs but wasn't really common) - and I thought OS/2 was technically a lot better than Windows 3.1 or Windows 95.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Fri May 5 06:52:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I can imagine that didn't work very well..

    If memory serves, the consultant then wanted me to set up dual boot with
    NT, then wanted the CFO to tell the accounting people not to play games
    on company time. Not clear on the concept at all.



    ... Towards the insignificant
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Fri May 5 07:17:00 2023
    Vorlon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    What the avreage person dosn't understand is that due to that products bloat it takes a tank to run... Do the same task on Linux/BSD and it
    will run with a quarter of the requirements.

    I had a lot of success with single-core CPU Thinkpads. Most of them had
    2 GB of RAM and spinning drives, and when we went from XP to Windows 7,
    they had a hard time. I found a company that made PATA SSDs, threw
    Lubuntu on them and got another 5-7 years of useful life out of them.

    I still miss my T43. Best keyboard, best design in a laptop, in my
    opinion.



    ... Which parts can be grouped?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Fri May 5 07:18:00 2023
    Vorlon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    hahah! I had a now xclient get quoted I7 dell pc's for a POS (Point Of Sale) system... I just walked away laughing! They are now paying them
    on a lease at twice the cost for what I could have done the job for...

    You *dont* need I7 based machines to do POS work, a entry I5 (Gen 9 or 10), would have done the job.

    I was thinking i3 or Atom, myself. :)




    ... Where is the edge?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Nightfox on Fri May 5 17:36:42 2023
    was between Windows and OS/2 (and to some extent, GeoWorks Ensemble had
    been around for PCs but wasn't really common) - and I thought OS/2 was

    GeoWorks came with a ridiculously good tetris clone and amazingly good
    printer drivers for dot matrix printers.

    ---
    * Origin: Telnet: bbs.WalledCTTY.com:1989 - Fort Collins, CO USA (21:2/145)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to HusTler on Fri May 5 20:42:20 2023
    On 04 May 23 08:15:09 HusTler wrote...

    embedded license - which is pretty much any PC except for
    niche Linux PCs these days.

    "niche" linux? I feel insulted. I won't be under the Bill Gates
    spell.

    ... This virus requires Microsoft Windows 3.x

    To which Darklord replies...

    Have to agree - I much prefer my Kubuntu Linux laptop to the Win10 box I
    keep around for a few stubborn games. :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From fusion@21:1/616 to Darklord on Sat May 6 04:12:22 2023
    On 05 May 2023, Darklord said the following...

    Have to agree - I much prefer my Kubuntu Linux laptop to the Win10 box I keep around for a few stubborn games. :)

    i'd say KDE is just as big of a bloated mess as Windows is..

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Abbub on Sat May 6 10:56:00 2023
    Am 05.05.23 schrieb Abbub@21:2/145 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo Abbub,

    was between Windows and OS/2 (and to some extent, GeoWorks Ensemble had
    been around for PCs but wasn't really common) - and I thought OS/2 was

    GeoWorks came with a ridiculously good tetris clone and amazingly good printer drivers for dot matrix printers.

    And it even ran well on a XT, and was really fast on a 486.
    And it featured real multitasking (between GeoWorks applications), and together with Novell-DOS, it even could multitask DOS applications.
    And it offered long filenames (inside of GeoWorks) :)

    I liked it a lot :)

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.57
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Nightfox on Sat May 6 17:16:08 2023
    Hi Nightfox,

    On Friday May 05 2023, Nightfox said to Vorlon:

    What the avreage person dosn't understand is that due to that products
    bloat it takes a tank to run... Do the same task on Linux/BSD and it
    will run with a quarter of the requirements.

    And back in the 90s (when Linux was still fairly new), the competition
    was between Windows and OS/2 (and to some extent, GeoWorks Ensemble had been around for PCs but wasn't really common) - and I thought OS/2 was technically a lot better than Windows 3.1 or Windows 95.

    OS/2 was technically better, but just like the VHS/BETA war's, the lesser product came to win, due to being on more machnes...

    MS also did better marketting so people thought that it was a better
    product. OS/2 was a better product sooner, than MS's product was/is...

    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat May 6 17:21:02 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Friday May 05 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    What the avreage person dosn't understand is that due to that products
    bloat it takes a tank to run... Do the same task on Linux/BSD and it
    will run with a quarter of the requirements.

    I had a lot of success with single-core CPU Thinkpads. Most of them had
    2 GB of RAM and spinning drives, and when we went from XP to Windows 7, they had a hard time. I found a company that made PATA SSDs, threw
    Lubuntu on them and got another 5-7 years of useful life out of them.

    I did the same thing, except the machines I did it to already had SATA
    ports. The most common was doing laptop's, and then desktop's...

    Had one client go from a 5minute startup/stable usable system, to the same
    in 30s, just from imigaging the hd to the SSD. When they saw the difference they were quite willing to pay for the extra. This was when 500Gb drives was rather higher in price to a 256Gb one...


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat May 6 17:24:42 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Friday May 05 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    hahah! I had a now xclient get quoted I7 dell pc's for a POS (Point Of
    Sale) system... I just walked away laughing! They are now paying them
    on a lease at twice the cost for what I could have done the job for...

    You *dont* need I7 based machines to do POS work, a entry I5 (Gen 9 or
    10), would have done the job.

    I was thinking i3 or Atom, myself. :)

    An atom, would be too slow... A higer i3, would have been ok, but when there are customers standing in line, you want the response from the software to
    be as fast as posable. The server is allready a mod range xeon, with dual
    cpu's and 8cores per cpu...running sas drives...


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Acn on Sat May 6 07:45:31 2023
    And it even ran well on a XT, and was really fast on a 486. And it
    featured real multitasking (between GeoWorks applications), and
    together with Novell-DOS, it even could multitask DOS applications.

    I don't remember it from a multi-tasking perspective. I did run it on a 386sx 16 MHz and remember it running very well. Much more performant than Windows 3.x. I made the jump to OS/2 2.0 not long after discovering it, but I do remember than I'd load it up just to print things because of the print
    drivers.

    ---
    * Origin: Telnet: bbs.WalledCTTY.com:1989 - Fort Collins, CO USA (21:2/145)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Sat May 6 08:13:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Vorlon <=-

    And back in the 90s (when Linux was still fairly new), the competition
    was between Windows and OS/2 (and to some extent, GeoWorks Ensemble had been around for PCs but wasn't really common) - and I thought OS/2 was technically a lot better than Windows 3.1 or Windows 95.

    Shout out for GeoWorks - they were down the street from where I was
    working at the time, and made a low-end PC useful. The WYSIWYG word
    processor was adequate, they had a paint program that was decent, and
    you could drop to DOS for DOS programs. The version I had came with
    Borland's Quattro Pro spreadsheet.

    I was amused by the fact that Geoworks running on a 386sx with 2MB of
    RAM looked just like UNIXWare running on high-end boxes at work - they
    both used the same window manager.



    ... State the problem as clearly as possible
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Nightfox on Sat May 6 20:20:29 2023
    Windows XP was definitely not the first Windows with DirectX support. DirectX has been around since the mid-90s, and DirectX was initially available for Windows 95:

    You are correct, apparently DX9 was available on Win2k... I don't know about earlier versions, or where compatibility was. I may be confusing NT4 in my memory, it's been a while.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Vorlon on Sat May 6 20:34:54 2023
    What the avreage person dosn't understand is that due to that products bloat it takes a tank to run... Do the same task on Linux/BSD and it will run with a quarter of the requirements.

    I tend to run relatively OP to begin with... but there are some really lean Windows images out there. Amazing how much can be ripped out, though some images probably tear out too much imo. I wouldn't yank defender or uap myself.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat May 6 20:39:14 2023
    You *dont* need I7 based machines to do POS work, a entry I5 (Gen 9
    or 10), would have done the job.

    I was thinking i3 or Atom, myself. :)

    Definitely... a current or last gen N-series would more than do the job even.

    Someone probably just liked using the mini/micro PCs from dell, hp or lenovo.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Vorlon on Sat May 6 20:48:04 2023
    OS/2 was technically better, but just like the VHS/BETA war's, the lesser product came to win, due to being on more machnes...

    I'd say at the point of Windows 2000 (NT Based) it had definitely passed OS/2. Of course that was about a decade after the breakup.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Tracker1 on Sat May 6 13:49:05 2023
    Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Sat May 06 2023 08:20 pm

    Windows XP was definitely not the first Windows with DirectX
    support. DirectX has been around since the mid-90s, and DirectX was
    initially available for Windows 95:

    You are correct, apparently DX9 was available on Win2k... I don't know about earlier versions, or where compatibility was. I may be confusing NT4 in my memory, it's been a while.

    I remember starting to see DirectX and DirectX games with Windows 95 and 98.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Vorlon on Sat May 6 20:50:49 2023
    Had one client go from a 5minute startup/stable usable system, to the same in 30s, just from imigaging the hd to the SSD. When they saw the difference they were quite willing to pay for the extra. This was when 500Gb drives was rather higher in price to a 256Gb one...

    I put a small ssd in my first gen i7 build. I had to symlink certain directories to the spinning drive to save space, but it was so much faster, that when it died at a year old, I went ahead and bought a bigger drive that I didn't have to worry about. I don't think I've put a spinning drive as a primary in any computer I've built or touched since and definitely the first thing I recommended to people since.

    Night and day difference. Going from SSD to NVME/PCIe less so, but that makes a big difference in build times.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Vorlon on Sat May 6 20:52:20 2023
    An atom, would be too slow... A higer i3, would have been ok, but when there are customers standing in line, you want the response from the software to be as fast as posable. The server is allready a mod range xeon, with dual cpu's and 8cores per cpu...running sas drives...

    Current i3 will run circles around an i7 from a couple generations back. Similar for current and last gen N-series. It's doubtful the bottleneck would be the POS even with like an N6005 or similar.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Nightfox on Sat May 6 20:54:51 2023
    I remember starting to see DirectX and DirectX games with Windows 95 and 98.

    Oh it was definitely started with Win9x... I was just speaking to the NT lineup... :-) I didn't run Win9x much, mostly OS/2 and NT4/Win2k around that time. And apparently my memory is somewhat muddled.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vorlon on Sat May 6 16:59:32 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Vorlon to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat May 06 2023 05:21 pm

    Had one client go from a 5minute startup/stable usable system, to the same in 30s, just from imigaging the hd to the SSD. When they saw the difference they were quite willing to pay for the extra. This was when 500Gb drives was rather higher in price to a 256Gb one...

    Back in the day, we had good luck upgrading single-core laptops with SSHD drives - a standard spinning SATA drive with 4-8gb of NAND cache on the side. The system would boot up normally, then as you loaded DLLs and programs, they'd load from the cache. Boot up time wasn't faster, but once it got up and running it made a nice speed difference loading, for example, Office apps and a browser.

    Back then, we'd do the old "turn the system on, log in, then get a cup of coffee" trick. By the time you walked back from the mini-kitchen, your system had booted up.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Abbub on Sat May 6 17:06:11 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Abbub to Acn on Sat May 06 2023 07:45 am

    I don't remember it from a multi-tasking perspective. I did run it on a

    That was right - the Geoworks apps would multitask. If memory serves, Novell DOS did task switching, and Geoworks had hooks for that in their environment. I don't recall how useful it was.

    I played with Novell DOS a bit - I was a Novell Netware admin, and liked the idea of setting up a peer-to-peer network with it. I can't remember what I didn't like about it, I think they tried to use the ODI driver stack and it took up more memory than LANTastic.
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Abbub@21:2/145 to Poindexter Fortran on Sun May 7 07:32:39 2023
    That was right - the Geoworks apps would multitask. If memory serves,
    Novell DOS did task switching, and Geoworks had hooks for that in their environment. I don't recall how useful it was.

    Hrm. Yeah, I don't think I ever fooled around with Novell DOS. I think I
    messed around with DR-DOS and...Concurrent DOS? For a while, I ran one of those with a terminal parked on a serial port, giving me a second CLI window.
    I don't remember which one I was doing that with, though.

    ---
    * Origin: Telnet: bbs.WalledCTTY.com:1989 - Fort Collins, CO USA (21:2/145)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Tracker1 on Sun May 7 07:46:00 2023
    Tracker1 wrote to Vorlon <=-

    I tend to run relatively OP to begin with... but there are some really lean Windows images out there.

    I ran the BBS on TinyXP for years and loved it - as long as apps
    supported XP it was a great platform, ostensibly more secure since a
    lot of cruft was removed. It was more like a program loader than a
    whole OS environment.




    ... Smooth is the Descent and Easy is the Way
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Tracker1 on Sun May 7 08:00:00 2023
    Tracker1 wrote to Vorlon <=-

    I put a small ssd in my first gen i7 build. I had to symlink certain directories to the spinning drive to save space, but it was so much faster, that when it died at a year old, I went ahead and bought a
    bigger drive that I didn't have to worry about.

    Yeah, I'm at the point now where I'll spend more than I want to be able
    to have one drive with everything on it. I hate having data on a
    secondary drive in Windows.

    Night and day difference. Going from SSD to NVME/PCIe less so, but
    that makes a big difference in build times.

    Really? I'm on a SATA-3 SSD now and from what I'm reading, raw speeds on
    nvme look to be around 5 times faster. I was thinking that might merit
    an upgrade when the time comes. I was hoping it'd be a significant
    difference from a user perspective, too.




    ... A NEW LIFE AWAITS YOU IN THE OFF-WORLD COLONIES!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Tracker1 on Sun May 7 08:03:00 2023
    Tracker1 wrote to Vorlon <=-

    Current i3 will run circles around an i7 from a couple generations
    back. Similar for current and last gen N-series. It's doubtful the bottleneck would be the POS even with like an N6005 or similar.

    I'm an i7 snob, been shopping for new systems semi-seriously. I should
    compare benchmarks on my old i7 and a new i3 to get a reality check.

    Doing a random check of a i7-4790 versus an i3-9100, it looks like the
    i3 edges out the i7 in everything except octa-core speeds. The -4790 has
    8 threads.



    ... A NEW LIFE AWAITS YOU IN THE OFF-WORLD COLONIES!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From fusion@21:1/616 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun May 7 16:50:44 2023
    On 07 May 2023, poindexter FORTRAN said the following...

    Tracker1 wrote to Vorlon <=-

    Current i3 will run circles around an i7 from a couple generations back. Similar for current and last gen N-series. It's doubtful the bottleneck would be the POS even with like an N6005 or similar.

    I'm an i7 snob, been shopping for new systems semi-seriously. I should compare benchmarks on my old i7 and a new i3 to get a reality check.

    Doing a random check of a i7-4790 versus an i3-9100, it looks like the
    i3 edges out the i7 in everything except octa-core speeds. The -4790 has
    8 threads.

    depends on what you do.. there are some very practical uses for those extra cores.

    pointing at the topic there, part of why i liked OS/2 back in the day was i could game on it 24/7 and none of my bbs users had any clue.

    i don't think i could go back to less than a fairly recent 8c/16t.. it's just too fun to have that limitless feeling from when i ran OS/2 back again :D

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to fusion on Sun May 7 17:06:17 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: fusion to Darklord on Sat May 06 2023 04:12 am

    On 05 May 2023, Darklord said the following...

    Have to agree - I much prefer my Kubuntu Linux laptop to the Win10 box keep around for a few stubborn games. :)

    i'd say KDE is just as big of a bloated mess as Windows is..

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

    I am not a fan of KDE/Plasma. QT is a bit of a mess. The whole thing chugs lots of resources for what it does.

    KDE/Plasma on Linux still blows Windows out of the water. If you compare my father's Kubuntu running on a 90 bucks computer with my mother's newer Windows computer, it is just no contest. Windows abuses IO so much that the user experience is misserable unless you throw a whole load of resources into it.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to Arelor on Sun May 7 17:42:29 2023
    I am not a fan of KDE/Plasma. QT is a bit of a mess. The whole thing
    chugs lots of resources for what it does.

    I love Plasma, and have total disdain for all things Gnome or GTK. To each his own :) But Plasma feels like a fully fleshed out and functioning DE to me, and it doesn't give me any problems, so I tend to stick with it.

    As far as resources, yeah, it's not super minimal, but I'm past the desktop ricing thing I was into years ago. It just became too much of a pain to maintain.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon May 8 00:42:06 2023
    Night and day difference. Going from SSD to NVME/PCIe less so, but
    that makes a big difference in build times.

    Really? I'm on a SATA-3 SSD now and from what I'm reading, raw speeds on nvme look to be around 5 times faster. I was thinking that might merit
    an upgrade when the time comes. I was hoping it'd be a significant difference from a user perspective, too.

    Really depends on what you do... for general desktop use, you really barely notice, less so for most games. Where I do notice is build times, especially for JS/Browser based projects that tend to touch a *LOT* of files/modules. Going from spinning to SSD was minutes to seconds... from SSD to NVME goes from seconds to less seconds, and for most usage it's not really that noticeable.. I still use NVME as it is sometimes faster, doesn't really cost more and eliminates cable clutter in the case.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon May 8 00:45:53 2023
    Current i3 will run circles around an i7 from a couple generations
    back. Similar for current and last gen N-series. It's doubtful the
    bottleneck would be the POS even with like an N6005 or similar.

    I'm an i7 snob, been shopping for new systems semi-seriously. I should compare benchmarks on my old i7 and a new i3 to get a reality check.

    Doing a random check of a i7-4790 versus an i3-9100, it looks like the
    i3 edges out the i7 in everything except octa-core speeds. The -4790 has
    8 threads.

    Surprised me as well when I'd first heard it... like for current generation, most will get by with the i5-13600k even depending on what you're doing. It's definitely peppy. But as with everything else these days, depends on what you're doing.

    Personally been AMD since the Zen+ came out, my SO is on an R5-2600, and I came in a generation later with the R9-3950X, which I passed to my daughter a year later when the 5950X came out. I'm sitting out this generation as I'm hoping DDR5 support gets better, but now that AMD is going big/little as well, only hoping the schedular for Linux gets more tuning, not that I push things that often. I generally just need a fair amount of threads for background services/databases via docker.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Tracker1 on Mon May 8 08:26:51 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Tracker1 to Vorlon on Sat May 06 2023 08:48 pm

    OS/2 was technically better, but just like the VHS/BETA war's, the
    lesser product came to win, due to being on more machnes...

    I'd say at the point of Windows 2000 (NT Based) it had definitely passed OS/2. Of course that was about a decade after the breakup.

    I thought Windows 2000 was pretty good. Being a newer OS, though, I think Windows 2000 probably had higher system requirements than OS/2.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Tracker1 on Mon May 8 08:30:23 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Tracker1 to Vorlon on Sat May 06 2023 08:52 pm

    Current i3 will run circles around an i7 from a couple generations back.

    With Intel's Core "i" series, it seems just a generation or 2 doesn't make a whole lot of difference. I've even seen Intel ads where they were comparing a current processor of theirs with a processor from 7 yaers ago (or something) to show what significant progress it had made.

    My main desktop PC at home has an i9-9900K, and the PC my BBS runs on has an i7-8700K. I've done some video transcoding on both PCs with the same software, using the same settings, and the i9-9900K is only 1-2fps faster at that than the i7-8700K. One difference, though, is that I was using Windows on the 9900K PC and Linux on the 8700K PC..

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to esc on Mon May 8 15:18:46 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun May 07 2023 05:42 pm

    I love Plasma, and have total disdain for all things Gnome or GTK. To each h


    That is because Gnome and GTK are their own mess.

    Nowadays I just go around with CWM (which is part of OpenBSD's core) and call it a day.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From fusion@21:1/616 to Arelor on Mon May 8 21:57:13 2023
    On 08 May 2023, Arelor said the following...

    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: esc to Arelor on Sun May 07 2023 05:42 pm

    I love Plasma, and have total disdain for all things Gnome or GTK. To e


    That is because Gnome and GTK are their own mess.

    the problem i have with it is they've decided they are going to draw their own window decorations, forcefully phase out the concept of a 'title bar' in favor of pushing toolbars, search boxes, tabs, etc up there.. turning every program you use into an ugly chrome/firefox (at least in their default configuration) look-alike. even pushes all your file menus into a little "burger menu" on the right.. like they really want to make all programs behave and look like they're running in a browser.

    they do awful things to the configuration screens too.. 5 changeable settings in a nearly 800x600 area is absolutely insane..

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Tracker1 on Tue May 9 15:00:52 2023
    Hi Tracker1,

    On Saturday May 06 2023, Tracker1 said to Vorlon:

    What the avreage person dosn't understand is that due to that products
    bloat it takes a tank to run... Do the same task on Linux/BSD and it
    will run with a quarter of the requirements.

    I tend to run relatively OP to begin with... but there are some really
    lean Windows images out there. Amazing how much can be ripped out,
    though some images probably tear out too much imo. I wouldn't yank defender or uap myself.

    The issue with the stripped out versions is the lack of a component that you then find is needed... I played around with XP-Nuke (I think that was it's name), back in the day, and it was then a task to re-build the system.


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to Tracker1 on Tue May 9 15:03:23 2023
    Hi Tracker1,

    On Saturday May 06 2023, Tracker1 said to Vorlon:

    Had one client go from a 5minute startup/stable usable system, to the
    same in 30s, just from imigaging the hd to the SSD. When they saw the
    difference they were quite willing to pay for the extra. This was when
    500Gb drives was rather higher in price to a 256Gb one...

    I put a small ssd in my first gen i7 build. I had to symlink certain
    [...]
    Night and day difference. Going from SSD to NVME/PCIe less so, but that makes a big difference in build times.

    The only machines with spinning disk's that I have are nas based setup's for mass storage and the retro machines... Even then I'm looking at ways to add
    a SSD to them. (Current project with my Amiga 1200)...


    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.5 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue May 9 15:05:29 2023
    Hi Poindexter,

    On Saturday May 06 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

    Back in the day, we had good luck upgrading single-core laptops with
    SSHD drives - a standard spinning SATA drive with 4-8gb of NAND cache
    on the side. The system would boot up normally, then as you loaded DLLs and programs, they'd load from the cache. Boot up time wasn't faster,
    but once it got up and running it made a nice speed difference loading, for example, Office apps and a browser.

    I have two of them here that are no longer getting used and sitting on the shelf. They are 2.5" 1TB unit's with 64gb of cache... They got used in a
    server sitting in a datacentre as backup drives for the main SSD drives.

    The server is also sitting here unused (a Dell R210 1ru, half length
    server). The only reason it got pulled was due to it's 16Gb max ram limit. Otherwise the thing ran as fast as the flash.



    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen

    Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

    --- Zeus BBS 1.5
    * Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to fusion on Mon May 8 05:20:00 2023
    fusion wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Doing a random check of a i7-4790 versus an i3-9100, it looks like the
    i3 edges out the i7 in everything except octa-core speeds. The -4790 has
    8 threads.

    depends on what you do.. there are some very practical uses for those extra cores.

    Yeah, just web browsing, reading QWK packets, Office/G Suite use, War
    Thunder and a handful of retro games.


    ... Where is the center of the maze?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Tue May 9 06:14:00 2023
    Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    I thought Windows 2000 was pretty good. Being a newer OS, though, I
    think Windows 2000 probably had higher system requirements than OS/2.

    I remember running 2000 Workstation on a Pentium Pro 200 with 64MB of
    RAM and being pleasantly surprised - and a little shocked - that it ran.

    OS/2, by comparison, ran wonderfully on a 486 with 16MB of RAM.



    ... YORGAMAK HAS ARRIVED AND WILL INITIATE DESTRUCTIMATION.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Bf2K+@21:3/171 to Nightfox on Thu May 11 19:57:18 2023
    On 08 May 23 08:30:23 Nightfox wrote...

    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes... By: Tracker1 to Vorlon on Sat May 06
    2023 08:52 pm

    Current i3 will run circles around an i7 from a couple
    generations back.

    With Intel's Core "i" series, it seems just a generation or 2 doesn't
    make a whole lot of difference. I've even seen Intel ads where they
    were comparing a current processor of theirs with a processor from 7
    yaers ago (or something) to show what significant progress it had
    made.

    My main desktop PC at home has an i9-9900K, and the PC my BBS runs on
    has an i7-8700K. I've done some video transcoding on both PCs with
    the same software, using the same settings, and the i9-9900K is only
    1-2fps faster at that than the i7-8700K. One difference, though, is
    that I was using Windows on the 9900K PC and Linux on the 8700K PC..

    Nightfox --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

    To which Bf2K+ replies...

    I built a new i9-12900K pachine in August. Shortly after, the i9-13900K
    came out. What I read about it was a 5% speed improvement at twice the
    power consumption (12th gen = 125W; 13th gen = 250W). IF these numbers
    are correct (cause I don't always believ everything I read), I'll stick
    with the 12th gen and save power.

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Bf2K+ on Thu May 11 22:32:46 2023
    On 11 May 23 19:57:18 Bf2K+ wrote...

    I built a new i9-12900K pachine in August. Shortly after, the
    i9-13900K came out. What I read about it was a 5% speed improvement
    at twice the power consumption (12th gen = 125W; 13th gen = 250W). IF
    these numbers are correct (cause I don't always believ everything I
    read), I'll stick with the 12th gen and save power.

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01] * Origin: STar Fleet HQ -
    Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Also, what was the price difference? 5% performance increase, 200% the
    price?

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Utopian Galt@21:4/108 to Tracker1 on Fri May 12 11:49:45 2023
    BY: Tracker1 (21:3/149)

    |11T|09> |10Personally been AMD since the Zen+ came out, my SO is on an R5-2600, and|07
    |11T|09> |10I came in a generation later with the R9-3950X, which I passed to my|07
    |11T|09> |10daughter a year later when the 5950X came out. I'm sitting out this|07
    |11T|09> |10generation as I'm hoping DDR5 support gets better, but now that AMD is|07
    |11T|09> |10going big/little as well, only hoping the schedular for Linux gets more|07
    |11T|09> |10tuning, not that I push things that often. I generally just need a fair|07
    |11T|09> |10amount of threads for background services/databases via docker.|07 So for Final Fantasy 14 or your favorite MMO and web browsing/playing video games an i5 would be just right?


    --- WWIV 5.9.0.3685[Windows]
    * Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to fusion on Fri May 12 16:02:20 2023
    On 06 May 23 04:12:22 fusion wrote...

    i'd say KDE is just as big of a bloated mess as Windows is..

    To which Darklord replies...

    It does seem to suffer from bloat, more and more as time goes by. I'm not
    sure I personally would insult it by putting it in the same category as
    Windows though. Of course, it's well known that I loathe Windows and all
    things Microsoft. :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Nightfox on Fri May 12 21:37:19 2023
    I'd say at the point of Windows 2000 (NT Based) it had definitely
    passed OS/2. Of course that was about a decade after the breakup.

    I thought Windows 2000 was pretty good. Being a newer OS, though, I think Windows 2000 probably had higher system requirements than OS/2.

    Probably, I don't even remember what I was running when it came out. I think I was using a 5x86-133 with 64mb ram and a 256k cache module with an s3 virge... Not 100% sure on that. The next computer I remember at all was an OC'd AMD Duron at 1.1ghz and a Voodoo 3 video card, and don't remember how much ram at the time. I did have 2x IBM DeskStar drives that were very fast but died within 3 days of each other in about 4 months of use around late 2000.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From Tracker1@21:3/149 to Utopian Galt on Fri May 12 21:46:49 2023
    So for Final Fantasy 14 or your favorite MMO and web
    browsing/playing video games an i5 would be just right?

    Yeah, an i5, or an AMD R5/R7 3000 or 5000 series would both do well for that. Depending on where pricing lands. The Ryzen R5 5500 is under $100 now.


    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)
  • From fusion@21:1/616 to Tracker1 on Fri May 12 21:16:17 2023
    On 12 May 2023, Tracker1 said the following...

    So for Final Fantasy 14 or your favorite MMO and web
    browsing/playing video games an i5 would be just right?

    Yeah, an i5, or an AMD R5/R7 3000 or 5000 series would both do well for that. Depending on where pricing lands. The Ryzen R5 5500 is under
    $100 now.

    what gpu? the 5500 can only keep up with a 3060

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)
  • From Bf2K+@21:3/171 to Commodore Clifford on Fri May 12 23:13:00 2023
    On 11 May 23 22:32:46 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    On 11 May 23 19:57:18 Bf2K+ wrote...

    I built a new i9-12900K pachine in August. Shortly after, the
    i9-13900K came out. What I read about it was a 5% speed
    improvement at twice the power consumption (12th gen = 125W; 13th
    gen = 250W). IF these numbers are correct (cause I don't always
    believ everything I read), I'll stick with the 12th gen and save
    power.

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01] * Origin: STar Fleet
    HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Also, what was the price difference? 5% performance increase, 200%
    the price?

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01] * Origin: STar Fleet HQ -
    Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

    To which Bf2K+ replies...

    THe two prices were close to the same, although I think the 12th gen had dropped $50-$100 since the 13th gen came out... but maybe not that much
    of a price drop... can't really remember...

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Tracker1 on Fri May 12 23:18:25 2023
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri May 12 2023 09:37 pm

    I thought Windows 2000 was pretty good. Being a newer OS, though, I
    think Windows 2000 probably had higher system requirements than
    OS/2.

    Probably, I don't even remember what I was running when it came out. I think I was using a 5x86-133 with 64mb ram and a 256k cache module with an s3 virge... Not 100% sure on that. The next computer I remember at all was

    I built a new PC with pretty much the same setup in 1996 (AMD 5x86-133 and an S3 Virge). I later found the CPU could be safely overclocked to 160mhz - One way was by increasing the bus speed from 33mhz to 40mhz.

    By the time I was using Windows 2000 though, I had upgraded - I don't recall exactly now, but I was using either my AMD K6-2 300mhz or K6-3 450mhz. I think the video card I had was a Matrox Millennium G200 at that time too, and a 3DFX Voodoo2.

    I remember the 5x86-133 being plenty fast for Windows 95/98, but not sure how it would perform with Windows 2000.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Darklord on Sat May 13 07:03:50 2023
    On 12 May 23 16:02:20 Darklord wrote...

    On 06 May 23 04:12:22 fusion wrote...

    i'd say KDE is just as big of a bloated mess as Windows is..

    To which Darklord replies...

    It does seem to suffer from bloat, more and more as time goes by. I'm
    not sure I personally would insult it by putting it in the same
    category as Windows though. Of course, it's well known that I loathe Windows and all things Microsoft. :)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Honestly, as an Atari guy I don't see how you can't be using Linux Mint.
    :)

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Bf2K+ on Sat May 13 07:09:06 2023
    On 12 May 23 23:13:00 Bf2K+ wrote...

    THe two prices were close to the same, although I think the 12th gen
    had dropped $50-$100 since the 13th gen came out... but maybe not
    that much of a price drop... can't really remember...

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01] * Origin: STar Fleet HQ -
    Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Gotcha. For me, I tend to go to the level right before the tiny
    incremental increase causes a huge price jump.

    Which now that I've got my car situation sorted out, looks like I'm going
    to focus on a new machine build. My current one isn't bad... but it's
    from 2015 and it's starting to have blue screens and sometimes just
    randomly powers down.

    It's probably time.

    I mean, I don't think (besides my Atari's of course) that I've had a
    computer in relatively constant use for this long.

    Especially as my "main".

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Utopian Galt@21:4/108 to Fusion on Sat May 13 16:33:38 2023
    BY: fusion (21:1/616)

    |11f|09> |10what gpu? the 5500 can only keep up with a 3060|07
    |11f|09> |07
    I have a 1070 with a 5700x

    --- WWIV 5.9.0.3691[Windows]
    * Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed May 17 12:11:00 2023
    Am 06.05.23 schrieb poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo poindexter,

    I don't remember it from a multi-tasking perspective. I did run it on a

    That was right - the Geoworks apps would multitask. If memory serves, Novell DOS did task switching, and Geoworks had hooks for that in their environment. I don't recall how useful it was.

    Task switching was already possible with DR DOS 6 (the background
    tasks were halted).
    In Novell DOS 7, one could configure either task switching or
    multitasking. :)

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.57
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed May 17 12:14:00 2023
    Am 06.05.23 schrieb poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo poindexter,

    I was amused by the fact that Geoworks running on a 386sx with 2MB of
    RAM looked just like UNIXWare running on high-end boxes at work - they
    both used the same window manager.

    Yes, I also liked the Motif style in GeoWorks a lot!

    Interestingly, the design could be changed by exchanging a file.
    I also had a file which changed the design to "CUA" design, ie.
    Windows 2.x style :)
    Later, a Win95-like design was also available.
    And AFAIK also an OpenLook design was available - something I would
    like to see in action somehow, as I love OpenLook :)

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.57
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to Tracker1 on Thu May 18 01:21:04 2023
    Unfortunately, the bulk of OS/2 use is a lot of embedded and legacy applications that are their bread and butter. Even at the price they charge it's likely they aren't making enough money to keep a lot of
    people on payroll, so aren't seeing many advances. At $200 each, it
    takes a *LOT* of sales to cover even one six-figure developer salary.
    And most people aren't willing to pay anything for an OS.

    I'd not assume their business model relies on individual B2C $200 sales inquiries. I think this is just an OK price they think may trigger some passionates to test it and to keep it reasonable for businesses to keep the same OS platform ran on more modern computers available today, while they (the companies) want to keep the old software running and being maintained (forever).

    Considering it, I'd set a business model on enterprise services to support such customers who reached out to me, with a dedicated maintenance plan they can add to their OPEX plan.

    FYI: Microsoft was also never so much focused on RETAIL revenue. They earns most of the Windows/Office revenue from so called Enterprise Agreements.

    During my time there OEM business was less than 10% of Windows business.

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Commodore Clifford on Sun May 21 23:48:02 2023
    On 13 May 23 07:03:50 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Honestly, as an Atari guy I don't see how you can't be using Linux
    Mint. :)

    To which Darklord replies...

    You're kidding, right? Of course I have MINT setup on my CT60 powered, 256 megs of RAM Falcon, with the Thing desktop. :)

    However, MINT doesn't lend itself as well to regular ST's due mostly to
    it's memory requirements. As soon as I get the STorm-ST memory setup in
    my Pak 68/3 equipped STacy, I'll set it up there as well.

    For 4 meg ST machines I'd highly recommend something like Geneva/Neodesk
    or MagiC/Jinnee...for alternative OS's.


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

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    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Darklord on Sun May 28 12:34:26 2023
    On 21 May 23 23:48:02 Darklord wrote...

    On 13 May 23 07:03:50 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    Honestly, as an Atari guy I don't see how you can't be using
    Linux Mint. :)

    To which Darklord replies...

    You're kidding, right? Of course I have MINT setup on my CT60
    powered, 256 megs of RAM Falcon, with the Thing desktop. :)

    However, MINT doesn't lend itself as well to regular ST's due mostly
    to it's memory requirements. As soon as I get the STorm-ST memory
    setup in my Pak 68/3 equipped STacy, I'll set it up there as well.

    For 4 meg ST machines I'd highly recommend something like
    Geneva/Neodesk or MagiC/Jinnee...for alternative OS's.

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    All good advice on the real hardware ST side... but I was talking about
    you using (Ubuntu?) instead of Linux Mint. It's kinda blasphemy.


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  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Commodore Clifford on Sun May 28 22:46:06 2023
    On 28 May 23 12:34:26 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    All good advice on the real hardware ST side... but I was talking
    about you using (Ubuntu?) instead of Linux Mint. It's kinda
    blasphemy.

    To which Darklord replies...

    Well, yes and no. It's been a long time, mind you, but I remember playing around with (non Atari) Mint and having problems with it. I tried a
    couple of other things then wound up with Kubuntu Linux and just seemed
    to get a long with it better sooo... :)


    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Commodore Clifford@21:3/171 to Darklord on Mon May 29 07:40:02 2023
    On 28 May 23 22:46:06 Darklord wrote...

    On 28 May 23 12:34:26 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    All good advice on the real hardware ST side... but I was talking
    about you using (Ubuntu?) instead of Linux Mint. It's kinda
    blasphemy.

    To which Darklord replies...

    Well, yes and no. It's been a long time, mind you, but I remember
    playing around with (non Atari) Mint and having problems with it. I
    tried a couple of other things then wound up with Kubuntu Linux and
    just seemed to get a long with it better sooo... :)

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    I used Kubuntu back when I was finishing my degree. Not a bad distro.
    But the only real problem I have had with Mint in the past was when I was trying to dual boot (well, more than dual... Windows, Fedora, Red-Hat,
    Mint, Kubuntu, Hackintosh... and I think there was one other in there).

    Don't even ask why....

    --- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Darklord on Mon May 29 09:38:19 2023
    Well, yes and no. It's been a long time, mind you, but I remember playing around with (non Atari) Mint and having problems with it. I tried a
    couple of other things then wound up with Kubuntu Linux and just seemed
    to get a long with it better sooo... :)

    I also use Kubuntu. I'm on 23.04 and really like it. For years I used Arch with KDE Plasma, but eventually migrated to Kubuntu to simplify things a bit. Arch is great if maintaining your OS is part of your hobby, as it was mine for a long time, but I've lost interest in that of late.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to Commodore Clifford on Mon May 29 23:58:40 2023
    On 29 May 23 07:40:02 Commodore Clifford wrote...

    To which Commodore Clifford replies...

    I used Kubuntu back when I was finishing my degree. Not a bad
    distro. But the only real problem I have had with Mint in the past
    was when I was trying to dual boot (well, more than dual... Windows, Fedora, Red-Hat, Mint, Kubuntu, Hackintosh... and I think there was
    one other in there).

    Don't even ask why....

    To which Darklord replies...

    With you, I know better... :)



    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

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    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Darklord@21:3/171 to esc on Tue May 30 00:05:28 2023
    On 29 May 23 09:38:19 esc wrote...

    I also use Kubuntu. I'm on 23.04 and really like it. For years I used
    Arch with KDE Plasma, but eventually migrated to Kubuntu to simplify
    things a bit. Arch is great if maintaining your OS is part of your
    hobby, as it was mine for a long time, but I've lost interest in that
    of late.

    To which Darklord replies...

    I've been pretty satisfied with it over the years. I'm pretty up to date,
    I just need to get a newer laptop - mine's getting pretty long in the
    tooth, as they say. :)



    /\
    Dark><Lord
    \/

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    * Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)
  • From Alonzo@21:1/130 to Mike Dippel on Sun Apr 7 01:41:56 2024
    My wife and I went to Seattle and visited Microsoft. I saw they has a store there so I
    tried to enter. It was for Employees only. Not sure why that was, but
    I left very
    disgruntled.

    Many companies have a store where employees can shop and get a discount on the company's products. I used to work at General Electric and we had our own store - for employees only.

    ... I'd love to help you out. Which way did you come in?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: From the depths of Bunker 3 (21:1/130)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Alonzo on Sun Apr 7 08:50:00 2024
    Alonzo wrote to Mike Dippel <=-

    Many companies have a store where employees can shop and get a discount
    on the company's products. I used to work at General Electric and we
    had our own store - for employees only.

    Microsoft has a company store in their Mountain View, CA offices. I
    went there for a "dog and pony show" back in the Windows 8 days and we
    were bought lunch in the cafe (very nice) and given passes to the
    employee store. They had lots of MS, Surface, Office and 365 swag, year
    licenses of Office365 and Xbox Live for 70% off, and Windows 8 pro
    licenses for $25 - which still work to this day on my Windows 11
    system.

    I bought a couple of branded pens and a nice Microsoft mug, all of
    which were stolen over the next few weeks from my desk. Bastards!



    ... Knock-Knock jokes are illegal in Poland.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Alonzo on Sun Apr 7 14:09:45 2024
    Re: Re: 386 OS/2 Woes...
    By: Alonzo to Mike Dippel on Sun Apr 07 2024 01:41 am

    My wife and I went to Seattle and visited Microsoft. I saw they has a
    store there so I
    tried to enter. It was for Employees only. Not sure why that was, but I
    left very
    disgruntled.

    Many companies have a store where employees can shop and get a discount on the company's products. I used to work at General Electric and we had our own store - for employees only.

    That's true. It sounded like what Mike was talking about was that the employee store was also open to the public from time to time. I've heard of a couple employee stores like that - Addidas, Nike, and Columbia Sportswear do that in my area. Some of them require a pass in order to get in.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)