On 23 Apr 2020, Wolfstag said the following...

I was wondering if any is doing packet radio anymore, kinda wanna give
it a try and google is good but someone with experience I could bother
on ocassion would be awesome.

Hey Wolfstag,
I'd love to get this conversation going. I have quite a bit of experience with packet.

My goal with my BBS system is to offer 1200bps VHF, 9600 UHF and HF packet interfaces to the BBS. The packet to BBS interface isn't the complicated
thing for me, what's holding me back is the tower for the VHF/UHF antennas,
and the General license to transmit on HF (other than 10 meter privileges as
a Tech)

I'd like to identify some type of project app that we can link up here on fsxnet that would allow us to map out, together, a project management type system to draft the system requirements, and various hardware tnc's, software tnc's, raspberry pi's and such to kick this project off.

I could have an operational prototype up on HF (10 meters) as a test system
in a matter of weeks, obviously 40 meters would be a much better band for
this, however that would require me to study :)

This topic really excites me, and I have transceivers, hardware tncs, etc.
The only thing is I would like to use a raspberry pi with perhaps a TNC-X.

There is another gentleman that joined my BBS locally that also has a passion for getting this setup as well that will be interested to get this off the ground.

73

-Dejavu

Lee
KN4TGK

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/02 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Dragonstalon BBS (21:2/164)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

On 24 Apr 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

On 04-23-20 05:40, Wolfstag wrote to All <=-

I was wondering if any is doing packet radio anymore, kinda wanna giv it a try and google is good but someone with experience I could bothe on ocassion would be awesome.

On my todo list. I have a gateway setup, except it needs a radio. :)

Hey Vk3jed!

I should probably work my way backwards on these messages :) What gateway
are you using Vk3jed? On your gateway are you basically typing "bbs" to forward to the BBS?

My vision is to create a "Packet Radio" theme in mystic that is ASCII only,
all graphics are removed, login at bbs is just "username and password" and
the menu prompts are "quick menu". User would have to manually request to
see the full menu over packet manually.

Also it would be interesting to allow the user to enable and disable which command prompts he/she would like to see in the future.

I'm excited to see 3 Amatuers already since pulling down the additional mail, this is really exciting, my fsxNet Ham Radio mailbox has been empty since I joined :)

73

-Dejavu

... 10.0 times 0.10 is hardly ever 1.00.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
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* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

On 28 Apr 2020, alterego said the following...

Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: marlow to Wolfstag on Mon Apr 27 2020 06:57 pm

On my TODO list. My BBS used to be contactable via Modem and Packet R

I would love to learn how to do this - I think it would be cool.

I'm a long way from being able to do it (and wouldnt know where to
start), but all the same, curious to know what's involved.

It would also be great to be able to have long distance folks connect - while Spectre is a few klms down the road - the next closest person is about 130klm away... :(
...ëîåã

Hey alterego!
I'm very knowledgeable in this area. Imagine us seting up hub traffic over
the HF links, now that would be awesome and is extremely easy. Believe it
or not it's no different than what we are doing with IP, Packet Radio uses
X.25 instead of IP, and it's natively suported by linux.

Also there are TNC's that do pure IP protocol, so that is something else to look into, we can simply use HF radio to talk IPv4.

Let's get a thread started discussing all the linux based TNC's everyone is aware of, such as the TNC-X, and then let's discuss the initial use cases and requirements. I'd love to build this and utilize it for my Netmail and
fsxNet mail synchronization :)

73

-Dejavu

... He used to be fairly indecisive, but now he's not so certain.
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

On 29 Apr 2020, vorlon said the following...

Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: calcmandan to alterego on Tue Apr 28 2020 05:49 am

(Work is keeping me busy, and when it is not, my kids are.)

Why dont we do it here - and perhaps we could drag a few more in?

But, step #1 is to learn what I need to learn. For me it seems to begin here: https://www.amc.edu.au/industry/amateur-radio

To operate Packet (ax25) in Australia a "Standard" license is required.

The basic setup is:

Radio (2m or 70cm) and Antenna
TNC (1200bps or 9600bps, with 99% being 1200bps) [Think of the TNC as the modem]
Computer running terminal software or bbs software with the AX25 stack loaded.

Hey vorion,
Exactly. 2m VHF 1200bps, and 70cm UHF at 9600bps, which 9600 is pretty darn fast for text only traffic!

Now add HF for the fsxNet mail transfer and Netmail and the BBS and mail functionality will still work when the grid is down :)

I already saw two people completely capable of doing this, what's really holding this back? I'm ready to jump in and make it happen!

73

-Dejavu

In the packet world the bbs software is 100% txt based, and there are a number of software packages. The most common obe being FBB.

\/orlon

--- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/armv6l)
* Origin: \/orlon Empire: Sector 550 (21:1/195.1)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

On 29 Apr 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

On 04-28-20 06:11, Wolfstag wrote to calcmandan <=-

I am licensed, still reseaching what to get and are people using it these days.

Packet is mainly used for APRS these days, rather than interactive
comms. However, I am partway through setting up a packet hub. And I'll
be able to support IP(v4), as well as plain AX.25.

APRS is widely used in the US, however Packet is still widely used. What's happened with Packet is that all the original hams are gone and the packet infrastructure that was running on Kantronics TNC's, for example, have also failed. The talent that use to maintain them is also gone so there is no
one to pick up the slack.

If we all did our part to put up packet nodes on the existing VHF/UHF frequencies we could keep it alive and well and leverage all the existing packet nodes that haven't dismantled, as well as offer a whole new breed of messaging capabilities via BBS that never existed previously.

73

-Dejavu

Vk> Vk> ... Cats don't criticize your friends Vk> === MultiMail/Win
v0.51 Vk> --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux

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--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

On 29 Apr 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

On 04-28-20 06:11, Wolfstag wrote to calcmandan <=-

I am licensed, still reseaching what to get and are people using it these days.

Packet is mainly used for APRS these days, rather than interactive
comms. However, I am partway through setting up a packet hub. And I'll
be able to support IP(v4), as well as plain AX.25.

Hey Vk3jed,

What TNC hardware are you using that supports IPv4?
I've used commercial hardware such as the P4 Dragon for IPv4 comms, however
I'm looking for some open source solutions, I know there are some, however
I've forgotten which ones they were.

I know the TNC-X is a very good open source product that has the ability to stack RS-232 interfaces on top, so you can have one device with UHF, VHF and
HF all in one.

I'm curious to know what else is out there now, TNC-X is a few years old now.

73

-Dejavu

... Cats don't criticize your friends
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: dejavu to alterego on Tue Jun 16 2020 12:58 pm

I'm very knowledgeable in this area. Imagine us seting up hub traffic over the HF links, now that would be awesome and is extremely easy. Believe it or not it's no different than what we are doing with IP, Packet Radio uses X.25 instead of IP, and it's natively suported by linux.

Cool.

Actually one of the first things I need to do is get licensed - but I dont have spare time to go through it all... I will get there eventually, but other priorities are in the way.

That said, I look forward to learning how its done. I did start playing with AX25 on linux, to see if I could get some packet stuff going over IP - that might be start?

Perhaps if I could get a radio link going between the front of the house and back (to get my skills up).

Ahh so many ideas but time is the enemy.. :(

...ëîåï

... Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted.
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On 06-16-20 12:52, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I should probably work my way backwards on these messages :) What gateway are you using Vk3jed? On your gateway are you basically
typing "bbs" to forward to the BBS?

I have LinBPQ setup for packet services, and another system links it to the 44.x IPIP mesh.

My vision is to create a "Packet Radio" theme in mystic that is ASCII only, all graphics are removed, login at bbs is just "username and password" and the menu prompts are "quick menu". User would have to manually request to see the full menu over packet manually.

Cool, sounds much like what a packet BBS has. Will be interesting to see how Mystic goes at it.

Also it would be interesting to allow the user to enable and disable
which command prompts he/she would like to see in the future.

I'm excited to see 3 Amatuers already since pulling down the additional mail, this is really exciting, my fsxNet Ham Radio mailbox has been
empty since I joined :)

Cool. Well, here in FSX_HAM, this can be discussed across 2 networks! It is linked to VK_HAMNET on VKRadio. :)


... The best way to make a long story short is to stop listening.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

On 06-16-20 13:21, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

APRS is widely used in the US, however Packet is still widely used.
What's happened with Packet is that all the original hams are gone and
the packet infrastructure that was running on Kantronics TNC's, for example, have also failed. The talent that use to maintain them is
also gone so there is no one to pick up the slack.

Yeah a lot have gone. I've gone back to my roots with the BPQ route, except that I'm now running LinBPQ on a R-Pi, instead of BPQ.EXE with KA9Q NOS on a DOS PC. :)

If we all did our part to put up packet nodes on the existing VHF/UHF frequencies we could keep it alive and well and leverage all the
existing packet nodes that haven't dismantled, as well as offer a whole new breed of messaging capabilities via BBS that never existed
previously.

I will have to pull my finger out and get a radio hooked up. I have a spare 2m port on a VHF/UHF diplexer, which can be used for packet. I'll probably have to setup a dedicated BBS that's ham only, though I would network it to this one (with security restrictions), to make it easier for me to access mail. I'll probably need a conventional FBB style packet BBS so I can access packet bulletins. I haven't seen software to gate them to FTN - searches have turned up empty handed. :/ I know there used to be packet - FTN gateways back in the 90s and there have been BBSs on FSXnet that have gated bulletins, but never found out how they were doing it.


... I had a monumental idea this morning, but I didn't like it.
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On 06-16-20 13:24, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

What TNC hardware are you using that supports IPv4?

Any TNC that supports KISS will do the job. :)

I know the TNC-X is a very good open source product that has the
ability to stack RS-232 interfaces on top, so you can have one device
with UHF, VHF and HF all in one.

TNC-X supports KISS (that's all it supports!), so it will work. All of the IP networking software supports KISS TNCs, though that's not the only option. There's also software TNCs and various hardware cards that have come and gone.

I'm curious to know what else is out there now, TNC-X is a few years
old now.

The original TNC-X site is no more, but MFJ now builds and sells the design.

My own setup uses a TNC-Pi, which is basically a TNC-X style board that fits on the Pi as a shield.


... Advertising is legalized lying.
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On 06-16-20 13:05, dejavu wrote to vorlon <=-

Hey vorion,
Exactly. 2m VHF 1200bps, and 70cm UHF at 9600bps, which 9600 is pretty darn fast for text only traffic!

Now add HF for the fsxNet mail transfer and Netmail and the BBS and
mail functionality will still work when the grid is down :)

I'm not sure HF is the way to go, traditional HF packet is only 300 bps. However, modern DSP technology could come up with better modem designs. The Internet is a much more reliable long haul backbone - vastly faster and not subject to highly variable propagation.

I already saw two people completely capable of doing this, what's
really holding this back? I'm ready to jump in and make it happen!

Looks like I have to pull my finger out. ;)


... Man invented language to satisfy his need to complain.
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On 06-17-20 08:48, alterego wrote to dejavu <=-

That said, I look forward to learning how its done. I did start playing with AX25 on linux, to see if I could get some packet stuff going over
IP - that might be start?

Well, AX.25 is the link layer protocol used on packet radio. In the overall scheme of things, it's roughly analogous to Ethernet on the LAN or PPP on dialup. AX.25 does have some rudimentary network layer facilities, namely digipeater routing.

But in a real network scenario, one would (and I did 30 years ago) run IP over AX.25 UI frames. You can even include a digipeater in the path, if needed, though where possible, it's best not to have a digipeater at the AX.25 layer and let IP do the routing.

Perhaps if I could get a radio link going between the front of the
house and back (to get my skills up).

I'm thinking of doing the same here. I have to hook up a radio to the packet system, which means making up a db9 to 6 pin adapter, then buying a Signalink cable for the Yaesu. Doing it this way means I only need the one oddball cable, regardless of what radio I use. I use the 6 pin mini DIN (1200 bps) connections as my standard packet connector format. I hate working on those mini DIN connectors too, might consider cheating there as well.

Ahh so many ideas but time is the enemy.. :(

Tell me about it!


... Of course I'm sane... The voices said so...
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On 17 Jun 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

On 06-16-20 12:52, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I should probably work my way backwards on these messages :) What gateway are you using Vk3jed? On your gateway are you basically typing "bbs" to forward to the BBS?

I have LinBPQ setup for packet services, and another system links it to the 44.x IPIP mesh.

Cool. I've experimented with BPQ, not sure if it's the same as LinBPQ and it worked for me, however I don't recall why I stopped using it. I'm going to circle back to it this week and check it out again and try to remember what
the trouble was that I encountered.

I've seen the 44.x address space, however I have no experience with it.
Can you explain the purpose of the 44.x address space at a high level and
share a use case or two for it?

In my experience with "Packet", "Pactor modes" or "APRS" I haven't seen an actual use case for the 44.x address space.

My vision is to create a "Packet Radio" theme in mystic that is ASCII only, all graphics are removed, login at bbs is just "username and Vk>

password" and the menu prompts are "quick menu". User would have to Vk>

manually request to see the full menu over packet manually. Vk>

Cool, sounds much like what a packet BBS has. Will be interesting to
see how Mystic goes at it.

Also it would be interesting to allow the user to enable and disable which command prompts he/she would like to see in the future.

I'm excited to see 3 Amatuers already since pulling down the addition mail, this is really exciting, my fsxNet Ham Radio mailbox has been empty since I joined :)

Cool. Well, here in FSX_HAM, this can be discussed across 2 networks!
It is linked to VK_HAMNET on VKRadio. :)

Cool!

... The best way to make a long story short is to stop listening.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

-Dejavu

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

On 17 Jun 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

On 06-16-20 13:24, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

What TNC hardware are you using that supports IPv4?

Any TNC that supports KISS will do the job. :)

I know the TNC-X is a very good open source product that has the ability to stack RS-232 interfaces on top, so you can have one device with UHF, VHF and HF all in one.

TNC-X supports KISS (that's all it supports!), so it will work. All of the IP networking software supports KISS TNCs, though that's not the
only option. There's also software TNCs and various hardware cards that have come and gone.

I'm curious to know what else is out there now, TNC-X is a few years old now.

The original TNC-X site is no more, but MFJ now builds and sells the design.

My own setup uses a TNC-Pi, which is basically a TNC-X style board that fits on the Pi as a shield.

I believe where I had left off last on building a packet interface was to use the TNC-Pi, however I never ordered one. If I can remember back in memory
that far I believe it was because they were on the brink of releasing a 9600 version at that time and I was holding out. Does that sound about right for the TNC-Pi?

I have quite a few Kantronics TNC's, including the KAM-XL, etc, I find them fantastic for stability and running in KISS mode and using software versus their built in OS, such as APRS. I don't believe I've tried to use BPQ with the Kam XL.

If someone handed you a couple Kantronics KAM-XL and SCS Pactor III units
and a TNC-PI, which unit would you prefer to use for BPQ for a packet
interface into Mystic, and if possible, some use cases for the TNC-PI over a traditional hardware TNC?

The KAM-XL has VHF and HF support, as well as the SCS Pactor III units.
I see one justification with the TNC-PI is that it has, at least from memory
a 9600 baud interface. That would be one advantage that I can see for 9600
UHF user connections.

Nothing else is coming to mind, other than open source... However I'm
extremely rusty on the topic and I don't own a TNC-PI, at least I don't
believe I have one, LOL :)

Vk> ... Advertising is legalized
lying. Vk> === MultiMail/Win v0.51

--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

-Dejavu

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

On 29 Apr 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

On 04-28-20 06:11, Wolfstag wrote to calcmandan <=-

I am licensed, still reseaching what to get and are people using it these days.

Packet is mainly used for APRS these days, rather than interactive
comms. However, I am partway through setting up a packet hub. And I'll
be able to support IP(v4), as well as plain AX.25.

APRS is widely used in the US, however Packet is still widely used.
What's happened with Packet is that all the original hams are gone and
the packet infrastructure that was running on Kantronics TNC's, for example, have also failed. The talent that use to maintain them is
also gone so there is no one to pick up the slack.

If we all did our part to put up packet nodes on the existing VHF/UHF frequencies we could keep it alive and well and leverage all the
existing packet nodes that haven't dismantled, as well as offer a whole new breed of messaging capabilities via BBS that never existed
previously.

I am very interested in this. Soon I will be studying for my HAM license in the US and will have a strong interest in setting up packet radio and a BBS.

I have some major time constraints to work around.

Daniel Traechin
... Visit me at gopher://gcpp.world
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On 06-17-20 08:12, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Cool. I've experimented with BPQ, not sure if it's the same as LinBPQ
and it worked for me, however I don't recall why I stopped using it.
I'm going to circle back to it this week and check it out again and try
to remember what the trouble was that I encountered.

LinBPQ and BPQ32 (the WIndows version) are descendents of BPQ. They are compatible and offer the same services, though LinBPQ and BPQ32 can do more, because of the better features of their host OS (Linux/Windows), compared to DOS.

I've seen the 44.x address space, however I have no experience with it. Can you explain the purpose of the 44.x address space at a high level
and share a use case or two for it?

It's a block of addresses set aside for ham radio use. The use cases have changed slightly since it first came about. Initially, it was a place where ham stations could experiment with IP, using software such as KA9Q NOS, which was quite an advanced package that ran on top of DOS. KA9Q could also run on top of BPQ (which ran as a TSR on DOS), which is how my old setup worked, back in 1991.

The 44.x address space could be used as a "virtual network" running on top of the Internet and sites could be linked using tunnels or other technologies, which is done to this day.

Today, 44.x address space has more used. In addition to providing IP connectivity to packet stations, the address space also facilitates:

IP connectivity for ham mesh and other high speed networks. These networks look more like wifi than traditional packet radio, and IP is a natural fit. These networks can also support IPv6, if desired.

Internet services for amateurs. With the IPv4 shortage around the world, getting a large number of IP addresses can be difficult. But for us hams, no problem. If we can find a provider that will route a /24 (or larger) via BGP, we can get a block of addresses allocated and have our provider route them to where we want. For example, I have a VPS that runs an IRLP reflector, D-STAR reflector and a bunch of public Echolink proxies (like around 150). I have a /24 routed to it via BGP, and this was done for 2 reasons:

1. I could only get a /28 using normal IP space, and I have to justofy that (easy, since I was using them all and starting to run short at the time).

2. As my provider switched uplinks, I had to renumber every few years, which is a tedious and error prone process, complicated by needing coordination between the admins of some of the services I carry (especially IRLP and D-STAR). Now using address space allocated to me, rather than my provider minimises the risk of this happening. And for ham services, the price is right. :)

In my experience with "Packet", "Pactor modes" or "APRS" I haven't seen
an actual use case for the 44.x address space.

Packet can use it, but doesn't need it. The other modes you presented it, don't use IP (other than APRS-IS, which is the Internet service that carries APRS data).

Cool. Well, here in FSX_HAM, this can be discussed across 2 networks!
It is linked to VK_HAMNET on VKRadio. :)

Cool!

Yeah, it is. I have to move the gateway to a DOS based system running in a VM, but it is working. :)



... X-Files? No... They're downstairs. We're the Y-Files.
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On 06-17-20 08:36, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I believe where I had left off last on building a packet interface was
to use the TNC-Pi, however I never ordered one. If I can remember back
in memory that far I believe it was because they were on the brink of releasing a 9600 version at that time and I was holding out. Does
that sound about right for the TNC-Pi?

I think there was, but the TNC-Pi is no more now. :( I'm glad I got one while I could. :)

I have quite a few Kantronics TNC's, including the KAM-XL, etc, I find them fantastic for stability and running in KISS mode and using
software versus their built in OS, such as APRS. I don't believe I've tried to use BPQ with the Kam XL.

I could never affoed the Kantronics TNCs, but they were the bees knees.

If someone handed you a couple Kantronics KAM-XL and SCS Pactor III
units and a TNC-PI, which unit would you prefer to use for BPQ for a packet interface into Mystic, and if possible, some use cases for the TNC-PI over a traditional hardware TNC?

Hmm, a mixed bag there. The Pactor unit would be a no brainer for Winlink. The TNC-Pi, if you wanted to save space, and the Kantronics for reliability and performance, though it's probably overkill. :) And another option is a software TNC like Direwolf, which is said to offer excellent (possibly better than hardware) performance.

The KAM-XL has VHF and HF support, as well as the SCS Pactor III units.
I see one justification with the TNC-PI is that it has, at least from memory a 9600 baud interface. That would be one advantage that I can
see for 9600 UHF user connections.

I don't know if 9600 ever eventuated.

Nothing else is coming to mind, other than open source... However I'm extremely rusty on the topic and I don't own a TNC-PI, at least I don't believe I have one, LOL :)

I do, just have to hook it up to the radio sitting next to it!. :D Got so many projects happening now. Just got AllStar working, and now it can connect to my existing tlb based system. I added SvxLink for voting and SDR inputs last week. :)


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On 19 Jun 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

On 06-17-20 08:36, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I believe where I had left off last on building a packet interface wa to use the TNC-Pi, however I never ordered one. If I can remember ba in memory that far I believe it was because they were on the brink of releasing a 9600 version at that time and I was holding out. Does that sound about right for the TNC-Pi?

I think there was, but the TNC-Pi is no more now. :( I'm glad I got one while I could. :)

I'll keep my eyes open on the used market for a TNC-Pi, just to see what I missed out on...

I have quite a few Kantronics TNC's, including the KAM-XL, etc, I fin
them fantastic for stability and running in KISS mode and using Vk>

software versus their built in OS, such as APRS. I don't believe I'v Vk> tried to use BPQ with the Kam XL.

I could never affoed the Kantronics TNCs, but they were the bees knees.

I bought them recently on the used market, so prices are what you would pay
for a TNC-Pi, as an example, however yes back in the day they were very expensive.

If someone handed you a couple Kantronics KAM-XL and SCS Pactor III units and a TNC-PI, which unit would you prefer to use for BPQ for a packet interface into Mystic, and if possible, some use cases for the TNC-PI over a traditional hardware TNC?

Hmm, a mixed bag there. The Pactor unit would be a no brainer for Winlink. The TNC-Pi, if you wanted to save space, and the Kantronics for reliability and performance, though it's probably overkill. :) And another option is a software TNC like Direwolf, which is said to offer excellent (possibly better than hardware) performance.

This is where things get a bit cloudy. I have all of these devices, I use
the SCS for Pactor III on Winlink, however I'm band limited to 10 meters,
since I haven't had the time to study to upgrade to General. I keep failing the General practice exams, and it's a struggle between other studying,
family life, attempting to setup a BBS, and at least 100 other projects. You know how it is. The studying for the General just isn't on my top priority list right now and I'm starting to see it's more of a thing when I retire
I'll be able to get to it, or at least I keep telling myself that.

When we talk about implementing packet integration into Mystic for example
I'm looking to use the best tool for the job. I prefer hardware devices
such as Kantronics, AEA, SCS, and most likely would like the TNC-X and the PI-TNC over the name brand vintage TNC's for the ability of customization,
one thing I know is the built in "JunOS" type BBS on the Kantronic's doesn't allow any customization, at least not without customizing the ROM.

I'm going to research and purchase the additional addons to setup the PI TNC and experiment with it, something tells me I already went down this path and probably have it toss in a drawer or box somewhere. Way too many projects
and not enough time.

The KAM-XL has VHF and HF support, as well as the SCS Pactor III unit I see one justification with the TNC-PI is that it has, at least from memory a

9600 baud interface. That would be one advantage that I can Vk> de> see for 9600 UHF user connections. Vk>

I don't know if 9600 ever eventuated.

Kenwood's TNC support 9600 baud natively, and there were 9600 baud UHF packet stations on Packet systems in the Virginia/Washington DC/Maryland area a
couple years back used for user access. I don't know the current status, however I do want to get one on the air, I believe not having a tower is what I've let this hold me back. I might just climb up in a tree and screw a j-pole in as high as I can get :) That is the amateur way :)

Vk> de> Nothing else is coming to mind, other than open source...

However I'm Vk> de> extremely rusty on the topic and I don't own a TNC-PI, at least I don Vk> de> believe I have one, LOL :)

I do, just have to hook it up to the radio sitting next to it!. :D Got
so many projects happening now. Just got AllStar working, and now it
can connect to my existing tlb based system. I added SvxLink for voting and SDR inputs last week. :)

I had Allstar at one point with the external parallel interface I believe it was, that project is benched and in a box somewhere for sure. I replaced it with D-Star, P25, Fusion, everything except DMR. SvxLink is ringing a bell, I believe that was the linux port of Echolink?

... The only thing wrong with immortality is that it tends to go on forever. === MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

-Dejavu

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: 1984 BBS [1984bbs.net:23] Washington, DC (21:3/114)

On 06-19-20 12:25, dejavu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I'll keep my eyes open on the used market for a TNC-Pi, just to see
what I missed out on...

I haven't looked at the secondhand market, hope you find a TNC-PI going for a good price.

I have quite a few Kantronics TNC's, including the KAM-XL, etc, I fin them fantastic for stability and running in KISS mode and using Vk>

software versus their built in OS, such as APRS. I don't believe I'v Vk> tried to use BPQ with the Kam XL.

I could never affoed the Kantronics TNCs, but they were the bees knees.

I bought them recently on the used market, so prices are what you would pay for a TNC-Pi, as an example, however yes back in the day they were very expensive.

Might be worth shopping around for some Kantronics TNCs now.

This is where things get a bit cloudy. I have all of these devices, I
use the SCS for Pactor III on Winlink, however I'm band limited to 10

Yeah, the Pactor modem for Winlink is a no brainer. And I'm band limited to 20 and 40m ATM, due to antenna limitations. But I play more on VHF/UHF anyway.

meters, since I haven't had the time to study to upgrade to General. I keep failing the General practice exams, and it's a struggle between
other studying, family life, attempting to setup a BBS, and at least
100 other projects. You know how it is. The studying for the General just isn't on my top priority list right now and I'm starting to see
it's more of a thing when I retire I'll be able to get to it, or at
least I keep telling myself that.

Yeah, you have to prioritise what's important, which usually means things like family, and other things have to take a back seat. Very understandable, especially in the current circumstances.

When we talk about implementing packet integration into Mystic for
example I'm looking to use the best tool for the job. I prefer
hardware devices such as Kantronics, AEA, SCS, and most likely would
like the TNC-X and the PI-TNC over the name brand vintage TNC's for the ability of customization, one thing I know is the built in "JunOS" type BBS on the Kantronic's doesn't allow any customization, at least not without customizing the ROM.

I look for openness and choice. In other words, such work shouldn't be dependenent on a particular piece of hardware, so Mystic will need to be interfaced to the AX.25 layer (and optionally other protocols, such as IP - hang on, Mystic can already do that! ;) ). So all you need is a working AX.25 stack on your system, and what TNC is used is a matter of preference, whether it's a Kantronics, TNC-X or even a software TNC.

I'm going to research and purchase the additional addons to setup the
PI TNC and experiment with it, something tells me I already went down
this path and probably have it toss in a drawer or box somewhere. Way
too many projects and not enough time.

I'd be interested how you go. :)

The KAM-XL has VHF and HF support, as well as the SCS Pactor III unit

I think HF packet is pretty much dead and buried. The Internet has taken over long haul packet links (and does it well). And non packet protocols such as Winlink have filled in some of the gaps, even though working in a slightly different problem space.

Kenwood's TNC support 9600 baud natively, and there were 9600 baud UHF packet stations on Packet systems in the Virginia/Washington
DC/Maryland area a couple years back used for user access. I don't
know the current status, however I do want to get one on the air, I believe not having a tower is what I've let this hold me back. I
might just climb up in a tree and screw a j-pole in as high as I can
get :) That is the amateur way :)

Haha, wouldn't been the first time I've seen an antenna in a tree. Done that myself at times, even for "permanent" installations. Tree climbing could be considered an essential skill for an amateur. :D As for 9600, I stayed away from it for years, because it was a lot of money and effort for relatively little gain back in the early 1990s. I didn't have the money for either the TNCs, or the radios that were 9600 ready. And the other choice was to hack a radio, but many cheap surplus radios of the day weren't suitable, because they used phase modulation, rather than true FM.

Today, 9600 is _much_ easier and cheaper, and chances are there's a couple of 9600 ready readios kicking around in everyone's shack. :)

I had Allstar at one point with the external parallel interface I
believe it was, that project is benched and in a box somewhere for
sure. I replaced it with D-Star, P25, Fusion, everything except DMR.
SvxLink is ringing a bell, I believe that was the linux port of Echolink?

With DVSwitch, you can link AllStar to any of the DV modes, or gate from one DV mode to another. :)


... The Sun is at the center of the Universe. Copernicus
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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On 19 Jun 2020 at 12:25p, dejavu pondered and said...

I'll keep my eyes open on the used market for a TNC-Pi, just to see what
I missed out on...

I bought a TNC-Pi kit and built it, but honestly, found that
a software modem (direwolf, in my case) worked better and more
reliably. Direwolf will run something like 7 decoders in parallel
and deduplicate the results; it will also apply some heuristics
to try and recover from 1- and 2-bit errors, use heuristics based
on known parts of packets, etc. I've found it's superior at
demodulating more packets relative to a hardware TNC.

I use mine with a Tigertronics SignaLink USB sound card and an
old ICOM monobander I bought from a friend.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/05/28 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 06-25-20 14:52, tenser wrote to dejavu <=-

I bought a TNC-Pi kit and built it, but honestly, found that
a software modem (direwolf, in my case) worked better and more
reliably. Direwolf will run something like 7 decoders in parallel
and deduplicate the results; it will also apply some heuristics

Yes, I've heard a lot of good things about Direwolf. I have used it briefly in an APRS setup, and it seemed to work well.

to try and recover from 1- and 2-bit errors, use heuristics based
on known parts of packets, etc. I've found it's superior at
demodulating more packets relative to a hardware TNC.

I've heard that before, definitely well worth a look.


... Rugby is played by men with odd-shaped balls!!
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

Hello everyone! I am curious if anyone has packet radio being used in their local area for something other than APRS? Packet has pretty much disappeared here in Ontario, Canada, although APRS is still active. I appreciate your
time.

73
Scott
VE3CGN

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

On 05 Jan 2021 at 12:03a, SetiOp pondered and said...

Hello everyone! I am curious if anyone has packet radio being used in their local area for something other than APRS? Packet has pretty much disappeared here in Ontario, Canada, although APRS is still active. I appreciate your time.

73
Scott
VE3CGN

Hi Scott.

Here in Dunedin we have APRS but packet has disappeared also. :(

A future hope of mine is to try and get my Mystic BBS on the air and
accessible via packet and TCP/IP connection.

Best, Paul
ZL4PH

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 01-05-21 00:03, SetiOp wrote to All <=-

Hello everyone! I am curious if anyone has packet radio being used in their local area for something other than APRS? Packet has pretty much disappeared here in Ontario, Canada, although APRS is still active. I appreciate your time.

Not here that I know of, though I have a project on slow burn to setup a packet BBS "just because". :)


... A life? Where can I download that?
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Thanks for the reply! I miss the traditional packet BBS and related infrastructure. I have been collecting TNCs just in case I can revive the
mode. Setting up a packet gateway sounds like fun. :)

Scott

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

Thanks for the reply! I loved the BBS I had back in the day running FBB. I
was planning on moving to a Linux-based platform but it never happened. My biggest problem getting packet running here has been antenna height, I need to put up a good digipeater before I can do much else to attract users. Sounds like an interesting project. I would be interested to see what you put together. :)

73
Scott

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

Avon wrote to SetiOp <=-

A future hope of mine is to try and get my Mystic BBS on the air and accessible via packet and TCP/IP connection.

Do you have to be a HAM in order to make your BBS accessible in this manner?



... DalekDOS v(overflow): (I)Obey (V)ision impaired (E)xterminate
--- MultiMail
* Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)

On 05 Jan 2021 at 01:13p, Blue White pondered and said...

A future hope of mine is to try and get my Mystic BBS on the air and accessible via packet and TCP/IP connection.

Do you have to be a HAM in order to make your BBS accessible in this manner?

If you're asking about sending echomail over radio, then I would say yes,
given that the packet radio gear needs to be run by a licensed amateur radio operator. The frequencies you can use will also vary between countries somewhat.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 01-05-21 06:35, SetiOp wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Thanks for the reply! I loved the BBS I had back in the day running
FBB. I was planning on moving to a Linux-based platform but it never happened. My biggest problem getting packet running here has been
antenna height, I need to put up a good digipeater before I can do much else to attract users. Sounds like an interesting project. I would be interested to see what you put together. :)

Yeah, initially it'll just be a simple BPQ mailbox under LinBPQ, but I'll see what my options are eventually.


... I have closed my consciousness to all further discussions on that.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

Avon wrote to Blue White <=-

On 05 Jan 2021 at 01:13p, Blue White pondered and said...

A future hope of mine is to try and get my Mystic BBS on the air and accessible via packet and TCP/IP connection.

Do you have to be a HAM in order to make your BBS accessible in this manner?

If you're asking about sending echomail over radio, then I would say
yes, given that the packet radio gear needs to be run by a licensed amateur radio operator. The frequencies you can use will also vary
between countries somewhat.

Actually I meant allowing it to be accessed by hams via packet / TCP/IP.
Of course, I guess once they log on I would be broadcasting, so that may
have answered my question. :)


... The number you have dailed...Nine-one-one...has been changed.
--- MultiMail
* Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)

On 06 Jan 2021 at 01:07p, Blue White pondered and said...

A future hope of mine is to try and get my Mystic BBS on the air accessible via packet and TCP/IP connection.

Do you have to be a HAM in order to make your BBS accessible in this manner?

If you're asking about sending echomail over radio, then I would say yes, given that the packet radio gear needs to be run by a licensed amateur radio operator. The frequencies you can use will also vary between countries somewhat.

Actually I meant allowing it to be accessed by hams via packet / TCP/IP. Of course, I guess once they log on I would be broadcasting, so that may have answered my question. :)

I sorta follow, if a HAM spins up a BBS and makes it available via their
packet gear then it stands to reason that any other HAM with packet gear
should be able to access the BBS assuming it's an open system.

Likewise if someone logins into a BBS via telnet etc. over the Internet and that BBS is linked to packet gear then their messages are going to be sent
out both via BinkP etc. and radio waves around the same time.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 05 Jan 2021 at 12:03a, SetiOp pondered and said...

Hello everyone! I am curious if anyone has packet radio being used in their local area for something other than APRS? Packet has pretty much disappeared here in Ontario, Canada, although APRS is still active. I appreciate your time.

I have a setup I can use for packet, and there is packet
traffic in my area, but not much. Here in the US, traffic
handlers associated with the NTS still use it, but it's
not very popular otherwise.

APRS has taken over as the dominant AX.25-based packet
protocol. I can see why; packet is slow and frustratingly
fragile. 1200 BAUD AFSK with no FEC isn't just low bandwidth,
it's also very high latency and really lossy. For APRS you
don't generally notice so much, but for anything approaching
interactive use, it's rough.

However, over the last week I got my AMPRNet (https://www.ampr.org/)
and my 44net allocation is back on the Internet; I put a random
Unix machine on the subnet and want to see if I can have a colleague
connect to it from across town by packet. That should be kind of
fun. Who needs a packet BBS when you've got a whole multiuser
host computer?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Hi Tenser, sorry for the delay replying, I had issues with upgrading the BBS here, which I hope are now sorted out. I used to have AMPR address space many years ago and was looking to set something up again a few years ago but there was very little interest in what I was trying to do. I am interested in
seeing what you can put together!

73
Scott

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

Hi Tenser, sorry for the delay replying, I had issues with upgrading the BBS here, which I hope are now sorted out. I used to have AMPR address space many years ago and was looking to set something up again a few
years ago but there was very little interest in what I was trying to do.
I am interested in seeing what you can put together!

Personally, I think every Ham should grab an AMPRNet allocation:
either we use that space or we lose it. The sale of the /10 to
Amazon a couple of years ago was a huge boon for the community,
in that it gave ARDC a pile of money that it could use for grants
etc, but ironically also shows that we're underutilizing our
available resources. Using an HT to call into the local FM
repeater is great and all, but not really all that interesting.

I did get my stuff working again, and I updated my 44net routing
software (my router runs OpenBSD, sadly, so the stock solutions
for Linux didn't work for me) and wrote up instructions on the
AMPRNet portal:

https://github.com/dancrossnyc/44ripd https://wiki.ampr.org/wiki/Setting_up_a_gateway_on_OpenBSD

I have a timesharing host on my subnet (finger @kz2x.ampr.org
to see if anyone is logged in...). I also have a RockPi4
(quad-core aarch64 with 4GiB of RAM, an NVMe SSD, and a real
ethernet PHY/MAC, not a USB bridge) running Raspbian that
connects to a 2m rig through a Tigertronics Signalink USB
soundcard. The RockPi runs direwolf, and what I'd like to do
now is configure ax25d so that connection to some AX.25 SSID
will automatically telnet to the timesharing machine (that
part could be SSH, since it doesn't go over the air, but who
cares?), then someone can use `axcall` or another AX.25
terminal to connect into my Unix machine and have access to
AMPRNet. This should be easy, except that, ironically, line
endings are causing problems. I'll probably hack up `axspawn`
to make it run telnet instead of invoking a shell.

It occurs to me that I might be better having folks telnet into
a plan9 machine, since someone might try to run `vi` or something
over AX.25, which is ... not going to work.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

It sounds like you have been busy! I really need to look into AMPRNet again
and check out the links you sent (thanks for that!). It sounds like a lot of fun for sure. Now that I have the BBS back up, I want to do some kind of gateways into different networks/machines as well. I am not sure how
successful I will be getting my ISP to route a subnet to me, but maybe. It
has been a long while since I did that kind of stuff myself, so I would be learning it all over again. Great to hear packet and ham radio alive and well in your area. :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

On 09 Jan 2021 at 12:39p, SetiOp pondered and said...

It sounds like you have been busy! I really need to look into AMPRNet again and check out the links you sent (thanks for that!). It sounds
like a lot of fun for sure. Now that I have the BBS back up, I want to
do some kind of gateways into different networks/machines as well. I am not sure how successful I will be getting my ISP to route a subnet to
me, but maybe.

The cool thing about AMPRNet is that you don't need to your
ISP to route anything to you; you can do it all over tunnels.
That's what 44ripd does; it reads AMPR RIP packets and sets
up subnet tunnels and routes. Definitely check it out!

It has been a long while since I did that kind of stuff
myself, so I would be learning it all over again. Great to hear packet
and ham radio alive and well in your area. :)

Indeed, it's exciting; I just got things hooked up so I can
gateway to 'telnet' to my Unix host when connecting into my
packet computer via AX.25, which is kind of cool. Sadly,
there doesn't seem to be a loopback interface for AX.25, so
to test it I connected to a local digipeater and then back
to myself. That works but is imperfect. Oddly, when running
a command that emits lots of text, I've found some goes missing;
I suspect I'm writing more text than will fit in a single
AX.25 packet; perhaps I'll pay with MTUs.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 01-10-21 04:41, tenser wrote to SetiOp <=-

Personally, I think every Ham should grab an AMPRNet allocation:
either we use that space or we lose it. The sale of the /10 to
Amazon a couple of years ago was a huge boon for the community,
in that it gave ARDC a pile of money that it could use for grants
etc, but ironically also shows that we're underutilizing our
available resources. Using an HT to call into the local FM
repeater is great and all, but not really all that interesting.

I have 2 /24s, so I'm doing my bit. :)

I did get my stuff working again, and I updated my 44net routing
software (my router runs OpenBSD, sadly, so the stock solutions
for Linux didn't work for me) and wrote up instructions on the
AMPRNet portal:

https://github.com/dancrossnyc/44ripd https://wiki.ampr.org/wiki/Setting_up_a_gateway_on_OpenBSD

Good work, adding to the documentation base. :)

I have a timesharing host on my subnet (finger @kz2x.ampr.org
to see if anyone is logged in...). I also have a RockPi4
(quad-core aarch64 with 4GiB of RAM, an NVMe SSD, and a real
ethernet PHY/MAC, not a USB bridge) running Raspbian that
connects to a 2m rig through a Tigertronics Signalink USB
soundcard. The RockPi runs direwolf, and what I'd like to do
now is configure ax25d so that connection to some AX.25 SSID
will automatically telnet to the timesharing machine (that
part could be SSH, since it doesn't go over the air, but who
cares?), then someone can use `axcall` or another AX.25
terminal to connect into my Unix machine and have access to
AMPRNet. This should be easy, except that, ironically, line
endings are causing problems. I'll probably hack up `axspawn`
to make it run telnet instead of invoking a shell.

My utilisation of my space is still in itd early days, but I eventually hope to have something up on packet running AX.25 and IP at a minimum. I used to run KA9Q NOS in the old days. :)


... Misspelled? Impossible. My modem is error correcting.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

On 09 Jan 2021 at 12:39p, SetiOp pondered and said...
The cool thing about AMPRNet is that you don't need to your
ISP to route anything to you; you can do it all over tunnels.
That's what 44ripd does; it reads AMPR RIP packets and sets
up subnet tunnels and routes. Definitely check it out!

I've had a logon to AMPRNet for a number of years with the intention to do something and register a few IPs. I should get my finger out and do something about it! Off to read some more of the Wiki :)

-=Pepper=-

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cosmik Debris BBS (21:1/187)

The cool thing about AMPRNet is that you don't need to your
ISP to route anything to you; you can do it all over tunnels.
That's what 44ripd does; it reads AMPR RIP packets and sets

Interesting! I was just looking at the AMPR website and joined the mailing list. I want to build a network in our county, so I think I will
probably get a subnet and play around with it. I'll let you know how I make
out with it.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

Hi!
I have a lot interest in that too! :)
Maybe you could make a cool how-to-Mystic(os whatever)packet-radio video!!! \<(")/

telnet sotanomsxbbs.org:23
*The last Msx user in Ibiza*

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Sotano Msx BBS (21:1/150)

On 10 Jan 2021 at 01:26p, tenser pondered and said...

Indeed, it's exciting; I just got things hooked up so I can
gateway to 'telnet' to my Unix host when connecting into my
packet computer via AX.25, which is kind of cool. Sadly,
there doesn't seem to be a loopback interface for AX.25, so
to test it I connected to a local digipeater and then back
to myself. That works but is imperfect. Oddly, when running
a command that emits lots of text, I've found some goes missing;
I suspect I'm writing more text than will fit in a single
AX.25 packet; perhaps I'll pay with MTUs.

So after playing around with the gateway software a bit,
I have this working pretty reliably now; in particular,
I don't seem to be dropping text, which is nice.

It's kind of cool to login over packet and send email to
other folks. It occurs to me that one could build a
better traffic BBS out of this.

Pretty cool.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

In Argentina have many BBS in packet radio via intenet and RF.
I have F6FBB via radio and internet telnet lu8fjh.dyndns.org:6300 lu8fjh.dyndns.org:3694 Uronode Netrom tcpip Node
Two system acces via my Mystic bbs lu8fjh.dyndns.org

Juan (lu8fjh)

lu8fjh.ampr.org Web page
lu8fjh.dyndns.org:23 Mystic
lu8fjh.dyndns.org:3694
lu8fjh-c64.ddns.net:6400 Petscii BBS Commodore 64
lu8fjh-c64.ddns.net:6401 Image 2.0 Ansi/Petscii bbs Commdore 64

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: LU8FJH BBS * lu8fjh.dyndns.org:23 (21:1/209)

On 01-14-21 14:42, lu8fjh wrote to Vk3jed <=-

In Argentina have many BBS in packet radio via intenet and RF.
I have F6FBB via radio and internet telnet lu8fjh.dyndns.org:6300 lu8fjh.dyndns.org:3694 Uronode Netrom tcpip Node
Two system acces via my Mystic bbs lu8fjh.dyndns.org

Packet here is pretty dead, other than APRS, AFAIK. But I'd like to have something up at some stage.


... I'm not the one that misplaced the Deltivid asteroid belt!
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

In Argentina have many BBS in packet radio via intenet and RF.

I wish I could find out how to get people interested in it here in Canada again. We had quite a good network in our area at one time. I am happy to see that people are still using it and I might be able send traffic to others via RF. I am still deciding what to set up here, but I am looking forward to
having something on the air.

Scott VE3CGN

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

On 19 Jan 2021 at 05:44p, SetiOp pondered and said...

In Argentina have many BBS in packet radio via intenet and RF.

I wish I could find out how to get people interested in it here in Canada again. We had quite a good network in our area at one time. I am happy
to see that people are still using it and I might be able send traffic
to others via RF. I am still deciding what to set up here, but I am looking forward to having something on the air.

So it's an odd thing. Having recently gone through the hassle
of setting up a packet station _and_ an AMPRNet subnet, I've
got some thoughts.

First, packet. So an initial observation is that the thrill of
packet for _most_ users just isn't going to be there. What does
it really offer? The ability to send email and exchange files?
At the whopping speed of 1200 BAUD? Yeah, that's just not that
cool. Digital modes like FT8 and FT4 at least let you earn awards
and work DX; but packet is just like talking on the local repeater:
no one is going to get a certificate to hang on one's wall for it.
So the remaining uses end up being special-purpose, like traffic
handling. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, but let's be
honest: if you're not a traffic handler, you're unlikely to find
it particularly interesting. C'est la vie; the heaviest use of
my local repeaters seems to be the nightly traffic nets. Hmm.

Another issue is that the node software has bitrotted to the point
of often not working. I've fixed lots of bugs in mine; it now
"works", to a point, but is disappointingly fragile. It's clear
that that code hasn't gotten a lot of love in the modern era.

AMPRNet is more interesting, but what do people want to run on it?
Standard Internet services, just over an RF circuit? Well, that's
cool, I guess. I set up a Unix machine as a timesharing "host"
on my AMPRNet subnet, and wrote a routing daemon, and documented
how to set up an AMPRNet gateway on OpenBSD. That was all fun,
but as many accounts as I can give out to local hams, what are they
going to login and do? Play `adventure`? Hunt the wumpus? I
guess that's fine, but only holds so much interest. The inevitable
conclusion is that the only real reason to use it is some kind of special-purpose use, like traffic handling. But the local traffic
handlers are all used to use FBB or BPQ or JNOS or node or whatever;
should I write special code for those folks that's just gratuitously
different? Hmm.

Which goes back to the point of bugs and such in the software we're
all using on e.g. AX.25. Arguably all of that should be rewritten
in a modern, type- and memory-safe language, but then one wonders,
what's the point? Why go to that effort for supporting low-speed
AX.25?

What we really need, I think, to make data on amateur radio really
interesting, is an embrace of the new. Something like IPv6 over a
better link-layer protocol (perhaps 6LoWPAN?) and then things like
HamWan and the BBHN stuff (which seems to have basically shut down).
Then we can start to do some cool stuff.

But we've got to get folks interested first. That's the hard part.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: tenser to SetiOp on Wed Jan 20 2021 02:27 pm

Howdy,

But we've got to get folks interested first. That's the hard part.

So I'm with you there.

I would love to get data flowing over the air - with no ongoing costs to a 3rd party, even if it was a slow speed. Building out (or optimising) a protocol to support this slow speed would be fun...

But to get to that point, I first need to invest in some equipment - which I'm willing to do.

Then I need to get licensed, which I'm willing to do too.

And if I figure out how to glue it all together, if nobody else uses it (and I cant use it to connect with somebody else), then I'm thinking its not worth the
effort :(

I believe range is low - so if I cant get traffic more than a few 100klms away, then the opportunity to find interest seems low too...

...ëîåï

... It is more rational to sacrifice one life than six. Spock, stardate 2822.3 --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)

On 19 Jan 2021 at 05:44p, SetiOp pondered and said...

In Argentina have many BBS in packet radio via intenet

So it's an odd thing. Having recently gone through the hassle
of setting up a packet station _and_ an AMPRNet subnet, I've
got some thoughts.

[...]

I used to run a Packet BBS (FBB), a DX Node (DX Spider), a RF to Internet
APRS gate, a IRLP node. The use of 1200 is a low hurdel that everyone can
get working due to the small bandwith that the radio passes. I did look
at going 9600bps, but that required radios that could do it (Limited
radios pre 2009), and a lot of find tuning.

I only had one radio that could do it, but that was running the APRs
gate. #-(

The interactive user base though had already droped to the less than 10,
The APRS was getting more use, but was still limited.

In the end it wasn't worth the effort of re-setting it all up when I
moved. It was also all running of a old Pentium 3 system running Centos3.

The AX25 support then was a mess, and hodged with sticky tape and wire to
keep it all running.


But kudos to you for getting something working.I still have the radio's,
TNC's etc, but as you said the software state is a mess. I doubt it would
even work on todays linux versions.




\/orlon
VK3HEG


--- MagickaBBS v0.15alpha (Linux/armv6l)
* Origin: \/orlon Empire: Sector 550 (21:1/195.1)

On 20 Jan 2021 at 03:10p, deon pondered and said...

I would love to get data flowing over the air - with no ongoing costs to
a 3rd party, even if it was a slow speed. Building out (or optimising) a protocol to support this slow speed would be fun...

I too would like to do this. I'm hot on building communications resiliency
and I like the idea of a ascii BBS running contemporary bbs software
available to folks to access over RF.

I've not really played with the older 'built by hams for packet radio bbs' software but from what I've seen I'm not sure I would really like it.

My ideal would be (as part of a wider plan of communications resilience) to have bbs FTN running over RF packet as a wider option for people to connect should TCP/IP over 'mainstream' internet channels be taken down due to act of god or man etc..

We really are too dependent on the interent to handle all our global communications. It's a pity modems and copper cables have gone / are going
the way of the dodo.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

communications. It's a pity modems and copper cables have gone / are goingthe way of the dodo.

We still have copper cables here in the UK! Most of the time, it feels like we're still in the dark ages with connectivity, internet and communications etc.

We finally got Fibre to the Property here some months ago, although it is crazy expensive to get the full package, so as much as I really wanted it, I am gonna have to let it go.

I am also looking into getting my BBS hooked up to packet radio so it can be reached over the air too. I think it will be great, as long as the speed can be at least 2400 bps, I think any slower than that, it would need to be a different theme entirely, just plain ascii or something and very cut down.

---
|14Best regards,
|11Ch|03rist|11ia|15n |11a|03ka |11Me|03aTLoT|11io|15N

|07ÄÄ |08[|10eml|08] |15ml@erb.pw |07ÄÄ |08[|10web|08] |15www.erb.pw |07ÄÄÄ¿ |07ÄÄ |08[|09fsx|08] |1521:1/158 |07ÄÄ |08[|11tqw|08] |151337:1/101 |07ÂÄÄÙ |07ÄÄ |08[|12rtn|08] |1580:774/81 |07ÄÂ |08[|14fdn|08] |152:250/5 |07ÄÄÄÙ
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On 19 Jan 2021, SetiOp said the following...

I wish I could find out how to get people interested in it here in Canada again. We had quite a good network in our area at one time.

That's the trouble with a lot of amateur radio, and really some of the
trouble I see with some of the people who think they're going to start
a revival with their novel BBS.

The nostalgia is briefly interesting, but then people move on. The only reason APRS is so popular is because it's built in to radios and takes zero effort to setup. On the other hand, packet radio is a absolute nightmare just to get the hardware/radio working right, even more so to try to have a successful
contact.

There just isn't any benefit or usefulness to packet radio anymore... Other systems like winlink or olivia do it much better. And there isn't any sort of pushing the envelop of technology with it either, like there is with things like mesh.

As my elmer said to me, "You missed the boat by about twenty-five years." I wish it weren't true, and I'll probably try to set something up for the Milwaukee metro area this year, but I know it's all in vain.


Andre
WT9X

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Runaan BBS (21:3/117)

On 19 Jan 2021, SetiOp said the following...

I wish I could find out how to get people interested in it here in Canada again.

I just took a HAM radio course online through RAC & Annapolis Valley Amateur Radio Club. I had no idea what I was getting myself into... It was way more complicated than I expected.

By the end of the course the teacher was telling us that we should be getting ready to write our exams & I'm just sitting there blinking with a dull look on my face.

I'll need to go over all of the material again and do a few more practice exams before I feel I'm ready. One of these days I'll be VE3<something> and be able to press talk on this handy talky that I have...


Jay

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/01/16 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Northern Realms (21:3/110)

On 21 Jan 2021 at 08:32a, Andre pondered and said...

On 19 Jan 2021, SetiOp said the following...

I wish I could find out how to get people interested in it here in Ca again. We had quite a good network in our area at one time.

That's the trouble with a lot of amateur radio, and really some of the trouble I see with some of the people who think they're going to start
a revival with their novel BBS.

I think people conflate things. There's going back
to the salad days of AX.25 packet BBSes and things like
that, and yes, that's just not coming back.

But I think there's room for experimentation with data
and digital modes. Things like NPR ("New Packet Radio")
are good examples of what _can_ be done, if we had a
more experimental mindset.

The nostalgia is briefly interesting, but then people move on. The only reason APRS is so popular is because it's built in to radios and takes zero effort to setup. On the other hand, packet radio is a absolute nightmare just to get the hardware/radio working right, even more so to try to have a successful contact.

^^ This. More generally, the problem is hams. Here in
the US, the symbol-rate limit is an unnecessary barrier
to experimenting with newer modulation types and building
higher throughput systems. But when I scan through the
comments on the ARRL proposal to eliminate the symbol rate
limits from the rules governing the amateur radio service,
instead using _bandwidth_ limits (which frankly makes a
lot more sense) much of the argument is against the proposal
and much of the reason for that are septuagenarians and
older mad about PACTOR III. "What's wrong with AX.25?!"
Nothing is _wrong_ with it, but we're supposed to be a
service that is dedicated in large part to _improving_ the
state of the radio art.

There just isn't any benefit or usefulness to packet radio anymore... Other systems like winlink or olivia do it much better. And there isn't any sort of pushing the envelop of technology with it either, like there is with things like mesh.

Yup. You're right. AX.25-style packet is basically dead,
aside from APRS. I'm much more interested in things like
HamWan (http://www.hamwan.org/index.html) and the Pugent
Sound Data Ring forming a high-speed metro-area RF network,
and coming up with something new and innovative for slow/medium
speed devices to connect in. AX.25 ain't it. Something like
6LoWPAN and https://destevez.net/ipv6-for-amateur-radio/ might
be.

As my elmer said to me, "You missed the boat by about twenty-five
years." I wish it weren't true, and I'll probably try to set something
up for the Milwaukee metro area this year, but I know it's all in vain.

I'm cool with that. It's what comes next that I'm really
interested in.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

But I think there's room for experimentation with data
and digital modes. Things like NPR ("New Packet Radio")

Hadn't heard of it before now, but it looks pretty fascinating. A hell of a
lot more interesting then AX.25.

lot more sense) much of the argument is against the proposal
and much of the reason for that are septuagenarians and
older mad about PACTOR III. "What's wrong with AX.25?!"

That describes literally every aspect of the ham radio community. ARRL and every club are so worried about losing the old guys with outdated interests that they keep wasting all their resources on that fear. Talk to any of the kids under twenty-five and they couldn't care less about EmComm, packet, Facebook groups, etc. They want to experiment and tinker and innovate and build, communicate about it on Discord... and send memes on SSTV.

That "when all else fails" mantra is fear-based too. "Please don't take our non-profit tax-free status and don't sell off our freqency allocations." We should be selling governments, youth, hackers, makers, and whoever else on
the notion that we can be innovators again.

I don't know why I'm ranting. I started this reply merely to mention that I find your posts, Tenser, to be really valuable.


Thanks,
Andre
WT9X

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Runaan BBS (21:3/117)

On 21 Jan 2021 at 11:05a, MeaTLoTioN pondered and said...

We still have copper cables here in the UK! Most of the time, it feels like we're still in the dark ages with connectivity, internet and communications etc.

As they roll out fibre here they are pulling copper cables out of homes :(
They are also decommissioning the analogue gear at the exchanges as they go.

An issue for m with fibre is if the powers goes off at home and the NTU dies then your VoiP goes with it :(

the speed can be

at least 2400 bps, I think any slower than that, it would need to be a different theme entirely, just plain ascii or something and very cut
down.

If I ever make progress on this idea here then yes, ascii only and simple
menus at best would be my advice :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 01-20-21 14:27, tenser wrote to SetiOp <=-

First, packet. So an initial observation is that the thrill of
packet for _most_ users just isn't going to be there. What does
it really offer? The ability to send email and exchange files?
At the whopping speed of 1200 BAUD? Yeah, that's just not that

Other than a few corner cases, I'd agree. Packet these days survives mainly to support APRS it seems. That said, I'll still eventually put something up, just coz I can.

cool. Digital modes like FT8 and FT4 at least let you earn awards
and work DX; but packet is just like talking on the local repeater:

Now that's where my eyes glaze over - I don't really care about DX or awards. I've never claimed an award in my life, paper chasing doesn't thrill me at all.
I know what I've worked, and I don't care whether you believe me or not. When I really want proof, I make audio recordings. :)

no one is going to get a certificate to hang on one's wall for it.
So the remaining uses end up being special-purpose, like traffic
handling. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, but let's be
honest: if you're not a traffic handler, you're unlikely to find
it particularly interesting. C'est la vie; the heaviest use of
my local repeaters seems to be the nightly traffic nets. Hmm.

No such beasts here, relly.

Another issue is that the node software has bitrotted to the point
of often not working. I've fixed lots of bugs in mine; it now
"works", to a point, but is disappointingly fragile. It's clear
that that code hasn't gotten a lot of love in the modern era.

Which software exactly?

AMPRNet is more interesting, but what do people want to run on it? Standard Internet services, just over an RF circuit? Well, that's
cool, I guess. I set up a Unix machine as a timesharing "host"
on my AMPRNet subnet, and wrote a routing daemon, and documented

There used to be Jabber servers that were useful (ham only), but the one I was using disappeared years ago. :(

What we really need, I think, to make data on amateur radio really interesting, is an embrace of the new. Something like IPv6 over a
better link-layer protocol (perhaps 6LoWPAN?) and then things like
HamWan and the BBHN stuff (which seems to have basically shut down).
Then we can start to do some cool stuff.

Yeah, some data that has useful speed and/or range (and can be made to optimise said tradeoff).

But we've got to get folks interested first. That's the hard part.

Always.


... Behind every successful man is an astonished mother-in-law.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

My ideal would be (as part of a wider plan of communications resilience) to have bbs FTN running over RF packet as a wider option for people to connect should TCP/IP over 'mainstream' internet channels be taken down due to act of god or man etc..

Amen! I'm very interested in this, and I've been pondering about it for a while. What I imagine is something equivalent to how BBS used to work: mail would be transferred from BBS to BBS over the phone lines, from point to
point, in such a way as to avoid any long distance charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from one VHF station to the other (or
maybe even HF), so that we don't necessarily depend on the internet in
case of an emergency. Mail could be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best
path (Internet, phone, HF, VHF, etc.).

JF

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/29 (Windows/32)
* Origin: TELNET://INKTWO/where?=CovinaCA : bbs.inktwo.com (21:2/110)

practice exams before I feel I'm ready. One of these days I'll be VE3<something> and be able to press talk on this handy talky that I have...

I wish you luck on your exam. It is a lot of work but it can provide a
lifetime of enjoyment. The first time I keyed my radio was about thirty years ago! A lot has changed over the years with ham radio but a lot has stayed the same as well. :)

73
Scott VE3CGN

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

The nostalgia is briefly interesting, but then people move on. The only reason APRS is so popular is because it's built in to radios and takes zero effort to setup. On the other hand, packet radio is a absolute nightmare just to get the hardware/radio working right, even more so to

Yes I agree with you. There are enough of us still interested to build a network, but it does need to have a new twist to keep people interested.
Packet has always seemed a bit complicated to me and it didn't seem to evolve like other technology, maybe because of the limitations on VHF radio
bandwidth.

There just isn't any benefit or usefulness to packet radio anymore...

I would agree partially with that. The same could be said for phone modes as well now that we have cell phone technology. It isn't really a fault of the technology as much as what we choose to do with it. APRS is a good example.


Scott VE3CGN

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

First, packet. So an initial observation is that the thrill of
packet for _most_ users just isn't going to be there. What does

Yeah, it is a bit complicated to set up the infrastructure and it is slow. Those of us who are comfortable in text-only modes are going to be the
primary users of such a system.

So the remaining uses end up being special-purpose, like traffic
handling. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, but let's be

Yes, traffic handling and emergency communications are two possibilities. Situational awareness (APRS) is another possibility. In my area
emergencies requiring amateur radio are pretty scarce so keeping interest in maintaining infrastructure and maintaining overall interest is difficult. The problem I see is that for traffic handling on packet we need some important traffic to pass on a regular basis.

AMPRNet is more interesting, but what do people want to run on it?

This is something I am learning as well. I need a better understanding of how the 44 network ties in and what people are doing with it currently. I
requested my block, but I haven't heard anything back yet.

Which goes back to the point of bugs and such in the software we're
all using on e.g. AX.25. Arguably all of that should be rewritten
in a modern, type- and memory-safe language, but then one wonders,

I agree. The last time I installed a BBS it only ran on Windows 95 and I
ended up with a virus on the machine somehow. We need something modern,
secure and that serves a modern purpose.

What we really need, I think, to make data on amateur radio really interesting, is an embrace of the new. Something like IPv6 over a

I agree totally. I was thinking if end users could connect via wifi on their laptops and use a simple client they would be more apt to use packet even if
it was slow. Give them something they are familiar with to interface with and leave the RF infrastructure to those who want to dive deeper into that area. Maybe some kind of ham radio social media app of some kind. :)

Mesh networking is interesting to me as well.

Scott VE3CGN

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

On 01-22-21 03:48, JF wrote to Avon <=-

Amen! I'm very interested in this, and I've been pondering about it for
a while. What I imagine is something equivalent to how BBS used to
work: mail would be transferred from BBS to BBS over the phone lines,
from point to point, in such a way as to avoid any long distance
charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from one VHF station to the other (or maybe even HF), so that we don't
necessarily depend on the internet in case of an emergency. Mail could
be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in
place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best path (Internet,
phone, HF, VHF, etc.).

Now that sounds like an interesting project.


... Find a safe part and use it as an anchor
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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On 22 Jan 2021 at 03:48a, JF pondered and said...

Amen! I'm very interested in this, and I've been pondering about it for a while. What I imagine is something equivalent to how BBS used to work: mail would be transferred from BBS to BBS over the phone lines, from
point to point, in such a way as to avoid any long distance charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from one VHF station
to the other (or maybe even HF), so that we don't necessarily depend on the internet in case of an emergency. Mail could be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best path (Internet, phone, HF, VHF, etc.).

Yep it feels like this is a 2-3 part problem. Probably the first part if just bolting old protocols and software together with the newer BBS stuff. That I think won't be overly hard. But the bigger issue is how to scale it in a way that others can jump on board and do the same. Without nodes in a mesh you don't have much resilience going on if you can only chat with yourself or 1-2 others locally.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from o VHF station to the other (or maybe even HF), so that we don't necessarily depend on the internet in case of an emergency. Mail coul be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best path (Internet, phone, HF, VHF, etc.).

Now that sounds like an interesting project.

I agree. This type of project is something I could jump on board with.

Scott VE3CGN

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

Hi Avon --

scale it in a way that others can jump on board and do the same. Without nodes in a mesh you don't have much resilience going on if you can only chat with yourself or 1-2 others locally.

What we need is a "RF-Mesh-As-A-Service". If we could use a protocol that is already working, onto which we could add FTN as a second layer on top, then most of the hard work would be done. I've heard of projects like AREDN, AMPRNET and HF ALE; I don't know much about them, but I think some of them can provide you with IP connectivity. So yes, below the IP layer there are nodes and
radios and antennas and a mesh network, but as far as the applications are concerned, they only see IP. This way, we could even keep delivering FTN messages via BinkD... That said, I don't know how well that would work.

So many possibilities. But you're right, the trick is to make it approachable so that others could easily get onboard.

JF

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/29 (Windows/32)
* Origin: TELNET://INKTWO/where?=CovinaCA : bbs.inktwo.com (21:2/110)

An afterthought...

like AREDN, AMPRNET and HF ALE; I don't know much about them, but I
think some of them can provide you with IP connectivity. So yes, below

I believe AMPRNET is not that easy to setup, because you're using directional antennas that need to be lined up properly. (GHz range)

I've read something to the effect of IP being used over AX.25 (don't really know what I'm talking about) but apparently it's excruciating slow.

There's also Winlink that is interesting... though that doesn't provide
you with an IP-layer, it's just straight up messaging.

There's satellite, but that's probably far-fetched.

JF

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: bitHaven BBS (21:1/139)

On 21 Jan 2021 at 03:44p, Andre pondered and said...

But I think there's room for experimentation with data
and digital modes. Things like NPR ("New Packet Radio")

Hadn't heard of it before now, but it looks pretty fascinating. A hell
of a lot more interesting then AX.25.

Indeed. I think there are some folks who want to double
down on old technology like AX.25, but ... why? I mean,
I got it running here at my QTH and that was kind of fun,
but no one uses it for anything.

lot more sense) much of the argument is against the proposal
and much of the reason for that are septuagenarians and
older mad about PACTOR III. "What's wrong with AX.25?!"

That describes literally every aspect of the ham radio community. ARRL
and every club are so worried about losing the old guys with outdated interests that they keep wasting all their resources on that fear. Talk
to any of the kids under twenty-five and they couldn't care less about EmComm, packet, Facebook groups, etc. They want to experiment and tinker and innovate and build, communicate about it on Discord... and send
memes on SSTV.

It was telling to me that KB6NU noted that there was too much
emphasis on public service in the ARRL's latest mission on the
purpose of amateur radio. I agree with him: we are simply too
focused on that as a mission, without understanding that the
agencies that are being served frankly don't need us.

Much ado was made about the 50 hams who went down to Puerto
Rico after Hurricane Maria and passed traffic, but it's
important to note that they exclusively passed health and
welfare traffic.

The places where amateur radio really serve the public as a
communications of last resort mechanism are almost entirely
in the developing world, and that's certainly useful, but in
order to participate (at least from the US....) you pretty
much have to have HF privileges.

The kerfuffle around the league proposing expanded HF privileges
for technicians is so representative: it's mostly gatekeeping
by old guys who fear that their contesting stations are going
to be drowned out by a bunch of lids, but what I think all of
these things fail to understand is that most techs have no
interested in HF: "talking on the radio" just isn't that
interesting. What _is_ interesting is telemetry, remote
instrumentation control, interfacing with computers and robots,
and tinkering with radios. All of that can be done with a
tech license, but why bother jumping through the hoops and
getting yelled at by a bunch of angry old men when you can just
buy a Zigbee hat for an arduino or raspberry pi and avoid all
of that, instead?

That "when all else fails" mantra is fear-based too. "Please don't take our non-profit tax-free status and don't sell off our freqency allocations." We should be selling governments, youth, hackers, makers, and whoever else on the notion that we can be innovators again.

I totally agree. The innovation is just not there.

I don't know why I'm ranting. I started this reply merely to mention
that I find your posts, Tenser, to be really valuable.

Thank you! I appreciate that. I'm afraid I succumbed to the rant
urge myself.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 22 Jan 2021 at 09:29p, Vk3jed pondered and said...

Another issue is that the node software has bitrotted to the point
of often not working. I've fixed lots of bugs in mine; it now "works", to a point, but is disappointingly fragile. It's clear
that that code hasn't gotten a lot of love in the modern era.

Which software exactly?

Approximately all of it, but I'm referring specifically to
the AX.25 tools and apps for Linux. An interesting example
is, "axspawn": this lets hams log into the local (Linux)
host, automatically creating accounts for them if such don't
already exist. The issue is that it's broken, and loses
data: the Linux AX.25 stack in connected only supports sending
data using the SEQPACKET socket type, which means that
individual write(2) calls must limit the amount of data they
send to fit into a single AX.25 frame. But the `axspawn`
program doesn't do that; it spawns a pseudo-TTY pair and
runs a shell on the child end, and just writes whatever comes
down the parent side to the socket. It's easy enough to fix;
one simply chunks those writes up in a loop. There was also
some hokey rate-limiting stuff built around alarm(3), but it
seemed straight up broken.

I ended up rewriting it to `telnet` to the Dragonfly machine
on my local AMPRNet subnet, so when users connect to my host
they're really `telnet`ing into my host machine, and had to
fix all of that.

Another issue was in the `ttylinkd` daemon: this is basically
an interface to the venerable talkd(8), and speaks the same
weird undocumented protocol. But its handling of that protocol
was broken (it didn't talk to the local daemon on the right
interface) so I had to fix it. That was really annoying.

I attribute all of this to this software being overly complex
and essentially unmaintained. I could fix it locally, but
its tedious.

Who knows what bugs are lurking in the kernel AX.25 implementation?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
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On 01-22-21 15:48, SetiOp wrote to Vk3jed <=-

charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from o VHF station to the other (or maybe even HF), so that we don't necessarily depend on the internet in case of an emergency. Mail coul be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best path (Internet, phone, HF, VHF, etc.).

Now that sounds like an interesting project.

I agree. This type of project is something I could jump on board with.

I'm not sure of the legalities of passing non ham traffic (third party trsffic rules apply?). But as a test, there's a simple option, setup a dedicated ham network to test out the technology, sort out the legalities later. :)


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On 01-24-21 03:14, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Approximately all of it, but I'm referring specifically to
the AX.25 tools and apps for Linux. An interesting example

Yeah, the kernel stuff looks well and truly bit rotted. I have been playing with LinBPQ, which seems to work

Another issue was in the `ttylinkd` daemon: this is basically
an interface to the venerable talkd(8), and speaks the same
weird undocumented protocol. But its handling of that protocol
was broken (it didn't talk to the local daemon on the right
interface) so I had to fix it. That was really annoying.

Hmm, yeah that would be a problem. :)

I attribute all of this to this software being overly complex
and essentially unmaintained. I could fix it locally, but
its tedious.

Who knows what bugs are lurking in the kernel AX.25 implementation?

A lot of people use non kernel implementations like JNOS and LinBPQ these days.


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On 01-22-21 12:41, SetiOp wrote to Andre <=-

The nostalgia is briefly interesting, but then people move on. The only reason APRS is so popular is because it's built in to radios and takes zero effort to setup. On the other hand, packet radio is a absolute nightmare just to get the hardware/radio working right, even more so to

Yes I agree with you. There are enough of us still interested to build
a network, but it does need to have a new twist to keep people
interested. Packet has always seemed a bit complicated to me and it
didn't seem to evolve like other technology, maybe because of the limitations on VHF radio bandwidth.

There just isn't any benefit or usefulness to packet radio anymore...

I would agree partially with that. The same could be said for phone
modes as well now that we have cell phone technology. It isn't really a fault of the technology as much as what we choose to do with it. APRS
is a good example.

Maybe packet of the future needs to leverage modern SDR hardware, and ditch the limitations of VHF voice radios altogether? Could start playing on 70cm. This might also help improve SDR software, which often lacks poor integration with legacy systems - for example, try building a SDR based repeater or linking a SDR transceiver to something like Echolink, without jumping through a heap of hoops.

No reason the system can't be capable of being run in voice mode or data - it would be SOFTWARE defined radio, afterall. :)


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On 21 Jan 2021 at 07:35p, Avon pondered and said...

On 20 Jan 2021 at 03:10p, deon pondered and said...

I would love to get data flowing over the air - with no ongoing costs a 3rd party, even if it was a slow speed. Building out (or optimising protocol to support this slow speed would be fun...

I too would like to do this. I'm hot on building communications
resiliency and I like the idea of a ascii BBS running contemporary bbs software available to folks to access over RF.

I've not really played with the older 'built by hams for packet radio
bbs' software but from what I've seen I'm not sure I would really like
it.

My ideal would be (as part of a wider plan of communications resilience) to have bbs FTN running over RF packet as a wider option for people to connect should TCP/IP over 'mainstream' internet channels be taken down due to act of god or man etc..

I think people make a bit of a mistake here by throwing
the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. The Internet
was _designed_ for resiliency; it's not like the phone
company that had to engineer in massive redundancies and
controls because it was centralized; by design it's
decentralized and packet routing allows one to get around
broken links etc.

I can understand the desire for communications infrastructure
that doesn't rely on commercial providers: the providers
themselves can fail, and if that's the only provider, then
redundancy at the protocol level is just a distinction
without a difference.

But the solution here isn't to revert to ancient technology
(AX.25 and packet BBSes) but rather to build something
better that provides IP routing on top of autonomous,
redundant RF links. AMPRNet is a step in the right direction;
things like AREDN and Hamwan are existence proofs to emulate.
The next step is a framing format for putting IPv6 datagrams
directly on the air and doing something with globally
routable IP spaces.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
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On 14 Jan 2021, lu8fjh said the following...

I have F6FBB via radio and internet telnet lu8fjh.dyndns.org:6300 lu8fjh.dyndns.org:3694 Uronode Netrom tcpip Node

What's the differences between UroNode and JNOS? There does not seem to be
much documentation that I can find.
I like how you've tied them all together, via the BBS.
I had a quick look last night at your BBS, I'll have a wander more around
this weekend.
de k1ymi

-=Pepper=-

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cosmik Debris BBS (21:1/187)

Hi. The difference between JNOS and URONODE is that jnos is a BBS with
the TCPIP protocol over ax25 and uronode is a netrom node that also supports the tcpip protocol wich allows you to do this type of communication via
telnet for example.

73s

Juan (lu8fjh)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
* Origin: LU8FJH BBS * lu8fjh.dyndns.org:23 (21:1/209)

Boy, I wish I had linked up fsxNet sooner, I missed a great conversation! I spent all evening last night reading this thread. All great, valid points.

Packet is alive and well here in Maine, and we're linked into New Hampshire and Canada via Houlton, but you're right: it's a very niche market. It's primarily EMAs and hospitals linked with club ECTs and ARES groups. Most of the folks around me in Southern Maine that are tinkering with it here seem to be retired folks with the time to constantly tweak audio levels and mail forwarding rules. I'm one of a few exceptions, age-wise, at 41 years old. However, I'm in it for the emcomm as well.

I brought up the idea of AREDN out here, but was told the elmers had already done the path studies and found we're too hilly. If we could get to the top of a couple commercial / emergency services towers on a couple of choice mountains, we may be able to set up an AREDN backbone, but then it gets political. I think things are shifting a little in our favor, but who knows when we'll see the results.

I also found on Facebook that North Carolina has a massive network with guys chatting with each other over the nodes. I'm not sure what their core purpose is, but they are having fun with it. For an introvert like me, and an insomniac that "plays radio" at night when the family is asleep, digital text is a great tool. I wouldn't mind seeing it come back to what I'm told is packet's original glory.

For giggles, I set up a security level for known hams on my board, and set up telnet links in the Doors menu to the nodes I'm a sysop for: WS1EC at the Cumberland County EMA, and W1YCA at the York County EMA; and their respective emergency communications teams (ham clubs). I'd love to have a radio link into my BBS, but sadly it'd just be me, and it def needs 9600 to be barely tolerable and still color ANSI.

Anyway, fun chat - it's great to see others out there with similar interests!

73 de KC1JMH
Brad

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On 14 Mar 2021, Roen said the following...

Packet is alive and well here in Maine, and we're linked into New Hampshire and Canada via Houlton, but you're right: it's a very niche market. It's primarily EMAs and hospitals linked with club ECTs and ARES groups. Most of the folks around me in Southern Maine that are tinkering with it here seem to be retired folks with the time to constantly tweak audio levels and mail forwarding rules. I'm one of a few exceptions, age-wise, at 41 years old. However, I'm in it for the emcomm as well.

There's not much around here, though I saw somewhere in the next county over from me (Clay county, I'm in Duval, Jacksonville to be specific) there is Winlink, but that's about the extent of it.

For giggles, I set up a security level for known hams on my board, and
set up telnet links in the Doors menu to the nodes I'm a sysop for:
WS1EC at the Cumberland County EMA, and W1YCA at the York County EMA;
and their respective emergency communications teams (ham clubs). I'd
love to have a radio link into my BBS, but sadly it'd just be me, and it def needs 9600 to be barely tolerable and still color ANSI.

That sounds cool, will have to check that out.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Ground Control (21:3/140)

On 03-14-21 11:25, Roen wrote to SetiOp <=-

Boy, I wish I had linked up fsxNet sooner, I missed a great
conversation! I spent all evening last night reading this thread. All great, valid points.

Sounds like it's all happening out your way. Other than APRS, there's not a lot of packet around here that I know of, but I would like to get something up, just for the hell of it. :)


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In article <60531E2D.149.fsx_ham@finalzone.ddns.net>
"Vk3jed" <vk3jed@21:1/109> writes:

Other than APRS, there's not a
lot of packet around here that I know of

I'm sort of in the same situation, we have APRS and WinLink on VHF, but
not much else in the way of packet.

Having an RF BBS sounds like it would be awesome, though.
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On 03-18-21 07:47, Nkeck72 wrote to Vk3jed <=-

In article <60531E2D.149.fsx_ham@finalzone.ddns.net>
"Vk3jed" <vk3jed@21:1/109> writes:

Other than APRS, there's not a
lot of packet around here that I know of

I'm sort of in the same situation, we have APRS and WinLink on VHF, but not much else in the way of packet.

Having an RF BBS sounds like it would be awesome, though.

Yeah, will consider my options. I may be setting up a system for a club, in which case, I could make it accessible via packet radio and ham mesh
etworking.


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Boy, I wish I had linked up fsxNet sooner, I missed a great
conversation! I spent all evening last night reading this thread. All

Always happy to continue the conversation where packet is involved! :)

Packet is alive and well here in Maine, and we're linked into New

Not much in my area of Canada, but across the lake in Ohio there appears to
be some activity. I just ordered a couple of very nice but pricey TNC cables
so I can start setting something up. I am hoping to link into Ohio since I am only 5 minutes from Lake Erie.

For giggles, I set up a security level for known hams on my board, and
set up telnet links in the Doors menu to the nodes I'm a sysop for:

Thats pretty cool. I have a radio telescope in my back yard so I wrote a door to access statistics and get the status of it. At one point I had it so I
could move the dish elevation remotely.

I thought about maybe setting up a door as a ham gateway myself, even if it
is just me that uses it. :)

Nice to her from you!

73
Scott VE3CGN

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

Is AMPRNet still a thing? I thought I had seen somewhere that it was kind of going out.

I did love playing with NOS on my Amiga 500 back in the day using my
Kamtronics KPC-3 with some of my friends. We had one guy in the next county over helped us getit up and working and we did a lot of cool stuff with it. I had the software which I downloaded from Aminet, but n clue how to really use it.

I wouldn't mind doing something with packet again. I have an MFJ TNC-2 just sitting here under my Zoom v.32bis and USR 56K modems just itching to get on the air.

73.
de Rich, KB2MOB

|04---- |15Rich Lawrence, KB2MOB
|14//// |15SysOp of Radio Freqs & Geeks BBS
|01--v|10/// |07-Ham/Shortwav Radio, Tabletop Gaming and General Geekery- |11\\|02xx/ |08mobbyg@gmail.com

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: SetiOp to Roen on Fri Mar 19 2021 09:29 pm

Hi Scott,

A pleasure to chat with you and these other fine hams as well!

so I can start setting something up. I am hoping to link into Ohio since I am only 5 minutes from Lake Erie.

I'm certain they'd love to have a Canadian on their network. We used to get a thrill seeing DX contacts crawling our nodes from New Brunswick, and they loved seeing us make our way up.

Sadly, the infrastructure between Southern Maine and them had been taken down, but others are starting to rebuild. Midcoast Maine is still going strong, we just need to reconnect to them, and then northward!

Thats pretty cool. I have a radio telescope in my back yard so I wrote a door to access statistics and get the status of it. At one point I had it so

A radio telescope? Cool! Most I've done with space is download SSTV from the ISS and images from NOAA, and the one contact via the ISS repeater.

73 de KC1JMH
Brad

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On 22 Mar 2021 at 04:23a, mobbyg pondered and said...

Is AMPRNet still a thing? I thought I had seen somewhere that it was
kind of going out.

AMPRNet is still very much a thing, but it's a massively
underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

SetiOp wrote:

Hello everyone! I am curious if anyone has packet radio being used in their local area for something other than APRS? Packet has pretty much disappeared here in Ontario, Canada, although APRS is still active. I appreciate your time.

Here in east Tennessee we have a few Winlink nodes as well as quite a
few APRS digipeaters and even a couple weather stations. We don't have
any AX.25 nodes but I plan to change that here in the near future. :P
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On 05-03-21 04:50, tenser wrote to mobbyg <=-

AMPRNet is still very much a thing, but it's a massively
underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.

I've already got 2 /24s. :)


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Here in east Tennessee we have a few Winlink nodes as well as quite a
few APRS digipeaters and even a couple weather stations. We don't have
any AX.25 nodes but I plan to change that here in the near future. :P

Thanks for the reply! I just picked up another TNC last week myself, hoping to put up one port on the Ohio network frequency and one on a local frequency to link the two. We'll have to see how that works out. Keep me in the loop on
your progress getting AX.25 running! I am starting from scratch in this area
as well. Best of luck!

Scott

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Redshift BBS (21:4/140)

underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.

I haven't had any luck reaching any coordinators here in Ontario. I used to have an allocation years ago but I lost it at some point. I'll have to try harder I guess. For now I am going to focus on getting the RF running here.

Scott

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
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On 05-05-21 20:04, SetiOp wrote to Vk3jed <=-

underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.

I haven't had any luck reaching any coordinators here in Ontario. I
used to have an allocation years ago but I lost it at some point. I'll have to try harder I guess. For now I am going to focus on getting the
RF running here.

Bummer. If you can't raise your coordinator, it's work asking on the 44net mailing list.


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underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.

I haven't had any luck reaching any coordinators here in Ontario. I

Bummer. If you can't raise your coordinator, it's work asking on the 44net mailing list.

Yeah I admit I haven't tried that, I'll have to do that. I am sure there is some coordinator looking after the block who can help on the list. I'll try that.

Thanks
Scott

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
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On 05-08-21 17:02, SetiOp wrote to Vk3jed <=-

underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.

I haven't had any luck reaching any coordinators here in Ontario. I

Bummer. If you can't raise your coordinator, it's work asking on the 44net mailing list.

Yeah I admit I haven't tried that, I'll have to do that. I am sure
there is some coordinator looking after the block who can help on the list. I'll try that.

If all else fails, the global coordinator should see your post.


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Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: Vk3jed to Nkeck72 on Fri Mar 19 2021 05:01 pm

Do you or anyone know what software to use to connect a regular DOS BBS up on packet radio with a KISS TNC? or would you need a fancier TNC?

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On 06-13-21 22:30, Phigan wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: Vk3jed to Nkeck72 on Fri Mar 19 2021 05:01 pm

Do you or anyone know what software to use to connect a regular DOS BBS
up on packet radio with a KISS TNC? or would you need a fancier TNC?

I haven't done it myself, but there are people who know how to do it. Might me something 'd like to try at some stage. Would need a dedicated heme.


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Hello Phigan;

Phigan wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Do you or anyone know what software to use to connect a regular DOS BBS
up on packet radio with a KISS TNC? or would you need a fancier TNC?

What BBS software are you looking to use? Most of them have migrated over to linux. For DOS, I can think of 2 you may desire to look at:

MFNOS - which will also give you TCP/IP functions and a NetRom node
MSYS - which will give you a NetRom node.

I have the last versions of each available if you need them. MFNOS will
require Borland C to compile which I also may have a copy floating
around.

For linux, I'll suggest URONode and LinFBB. You can get both of those on sourceforge.

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On 06-13-21 22:30, Phigan wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: Vk3jed to Nkeck72 on Fri Mar 19 2021 05:01 pm

Do you or anyone know what software to use to connect a regular DOS BBS
up on packet radio with a KISS TNC? or would you need a fancier TNC?

It has been done, but I'm not up with the details.


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