• Re: Hackintosh

    From Paradigms Shifting@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 19 12:31:55 2022
    On 19 Apr 2021 at 07:36a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    I wanted to refresh my Mac skills, as I've been working in Windows/Linux environments for some time. This page -

    https://lukesempire.com/2021/04/11/vms


    Has a great page on getting Windows 10 and MacOS running on an old i5 running Linux.

    He's running a Thinkpad T410 with an i5 and 8 GB of RAM. I'm running
    mine on a T410 with an i7, so have a little more power to go around.

    MacOS was a breeze to install, although it wanted to send notifications
    to an iPhone 4S that I haven't had in YEARS.

    Very interesting. I'm guessing that the newer the hardware is, the better things will be for running MAX OSX on PC hardware?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Paradigms Shifting on Mon Apr 18 18:57:22 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: Paradigms Shifting to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 19 2022 12:31 pm

    Very interesting. I'm guessing that the newer the hardware is, the better things will be for running MAX OSX on PC hardware?

    What is MAX OSX? Is that a special version of Mac OS X?

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
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  • From The Millionaire@21:1/183 to Nightfox on Mon Apr 18 19:31:17 2022

    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: Paradigms Shifting to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 19 2022 12:31 pm

    What is MAX OSX? Is that a special version of Mac OS X?

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)


    A typographical error perhaps?

    $ The Millionaire $
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  • From 2twisty@21:3/166 to The Millionaire on Mon Apr 18 20:50:07 2022
    The days of the hackintosh are numbered now that Apple has their own custom silicon. They can write OSX in such a way that it will only run on M1 and not any other Arm-based silicon.

    I used to run a Hackintosh back in the day. They never were stable enough for production use, but were handy when you had to do something Apple-y.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Ratrace Losers (21:3/166)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to The Millionaire on Mon Apr 18 19:52:25 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: The Millionaire to Nightfox on Mon Apr 18 2022 07:31 pm

    What is MAX OSX? Is that a special version of Mac OS X?

    A typographical error perhaps?

    I figured it might be, but I'm not familiar with all that Apple is doing (I don't have any Apple products).

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
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  • From The Millionaire@21:1/183 to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 09:10:08 2022

    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: The Millionaire to Nightfox on Mon Apr 18 2022 07:31 pm

    I figured it might be, but I'm not familiar with all that Apple is doing (I don't have any Apple products).

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
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    Well I have an Apple iPad and I love it. :-)

    $ The Millionaire $
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to The Millionaire on Tue Apr 19 09:46:32 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: The Millionaire to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 2022 09:10 am

    I figured it might be, but I'm not familiar with all that Apple is
    doing (I don't have any Apple products).

    Well I have an Apple iPad and I love it. :-)

    I used to have an Apple iPod Touch years ago, but when I started using smartphones I sold my iPod Touch and haven't looked back. Also, years ago I bought a tablet but never really used it much.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to 2twisty on Tue Apr 19 09:51:13 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: 2twisty to The Millionaire on Mon Apr 18 2022 08:50 pm

    The days of the hackintosh are numbered now that Apple has their own custom silicon. They can write OSX in such a way that it will only run on M1 and not any other Arm-based silicon.

    I wonder if someone will end up finding a hack for that to get OS X running on other ARM-based devices - maybe even things like a Raspberry Pi.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From The Millionaire@21:1/183 to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 09:54:30 2022

    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: 2twisty to The Millionaire on Mon Apr 18 2022 08:50 pm

    I wonder if someone will end up finding a hack for that to get OS X running on other ARM-based devices - maybe even things like a Raspberry Pi.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)


    How about getting a bbs to run on an iPad? Now that would be interesting.

    $ The Millionaire $
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to The Millionaire on Tue Apr 19 10:00:36 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: The Millionaire to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 2022 09:54 am

    How about getting a bbs to run on an iPad? Now that would be interesting.

    When I had an iPod Touch, I jailbroke it so I could install apps from other sources on it. And another thing I could do on a jailbroken iPod Touch was that I could SSH to it and get to a command prompt. It basically runs on Darwin (same as mac OS X), from what I remember. You could probably get Linux to build on it and run it, but I've never tried that.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From The Millionaire@21:1/183 to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 10:04:01 2022

    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: The Millionaire to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 2022 09:54 am

    When I had an iPod Touch, I jailbroke it so I could install apps from other sources on it. And another thing I could do on a jailbroken iPod Touch was that I could SSH to it and get to a command prompt. It basically runs on Darwin (same as mac OS X), from what I remember. You could probably get Linux to build on it and run it, but I've never tried that.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)


    Well if you do get it to work, let me know. Thanks. :-)

    $ The Millionaire $
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to The Millionaire on Tue Apr 19 12:05:17 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: The Millionaire to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 2022 10:04 am

    When I had an iPod Touch, I jailbroke it so I could install apps from
    other sources on it. And another thing I could do on a jailbroken
    iPod Touch was that I could SSH to it and get to a command prompt. It
    basically runs on Darwin (same as mac OS X), from what I remember.
    You could probably get Linux to build on it and run it, but I've never
    tried that.

    Well if you do get it to work, let me know. Thanks. :-)

    I don't have an iPod Touch anymore, so I won't be able to try this again.. It has been years since I had one, so I'm not even sure if it's still easy to jailbreak iOS devices.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
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  • From 2twisty@21:3/166 to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 19:34:30 2022
    I wonder if someone will end up finding a hack for that to get OS X running on other ARM-based devices - maybe even things like a Raspberry Pi.

    That's extremely unlikely. The OS would have to be recompiled to run on alternate silicon, and I don't think Apple's going to release the source code.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Ratrace Losers (21:3/166)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to 2twisty on Tue Apr 19 19:09:03 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: 2twisty to Nightfox on Tue Apr 19 2022 07:34 pm

    I wonder if someone will end up finding a hack for that to get OS X
    running on other ARM-based devices - maybe even things like a
    Raspberry Pi.

    That's extremely unlikely. The OS would have to be recompiled to run on alternate silicon, and I don't think Apple's going to release the source code.

    I thought Apple's M1 processor is ARM at its core, isn't it? If it's running on another ARM system, I don't see why it would need to be recompiled. Unless there's more to Apple's M1 processor than I'm aware of.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
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  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to The Millionaire on Wed Apr 20 11:37:00 2022
    Am 19.04.22 schrieb The Millionaire@21:1/183 in FSX_GEN:

    Hallo The,

    Well I have an Apple iPad and I love it. :-)

    I used to have an iPhone 4 and loved it - until iOS 7 came out and
    made it absolutely unusable. I walked to an official Apple Store and
    asked how I could revert to iOS 6, they said "it's impossible" - and I
    walked out of the shop, right into another shop and bought a Galaxy
    S4.
    Since then, I'm using Android, which also has its rough edges, but did
    not cripple my devices (yet). And the devices I bought were 'open
    enough' that I could install alternative systems.

    I also loved my old PowerBook G4 that I bought many years ago and the
    iMac 21" from 2010 - but here Apple also crippled the system and
    dumbed-down everything (I loved Apple Pages until it could not even
    read its own old documents correctly after a major update), so I
    installed Linux on the iMac and used it for some years as a Linux
    system. That was my last Apple computer.

    Regards,
    Anna


    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From 2twisty@21:3/166 to Nightfox on Wed Apr 20 08:36:03 2022
    I thought Apple's M1 processor is ARM at its core, isn't it? If it's running on another ARM system, I don't see why it would need to be recompiled. Unless there's more to Apple's M1 processor than I'm aware of.

    Yes, at its core, it's ARM.

    Then again, an Intel 12900KS and AMD Ryzen 5800X3D are both Intel 8086 "at their core."

    Apple could ADD additional instruction sets to the base ARM design, and then writing their source code to use those insructions. A regular ARM chip would have no idea how to use it.

    This would be akin to trying to run a 64-bit windows OS (or app) on a 32-bit processor. The chip the OS targets has instructions that the 32 bit one has no clue about. So, in order to run on 32 bit processors, the code has to be recompiled (and possibly edited) to run on a 32 bit rather than 64 bit processor.

    M1 MacOS will never run on a "garden variety" ARM chip. Apple learned their lesson with all the Hackintoshes.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Ratrace Losers (21:3/166)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to 2twisty on Wed Apr 20 10:00:38 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: 2twisty to Nightfox on Wed Apr 20 2022 08:36 am

    Apple could ADD additional instruction sets to the base ARM design, and then writing their source code to use those insructions. A regular ARM chip would have no idea how to use it.

    Yeah, I wondered about that. Apple's customizations that go into their M1 may make it a bit different from a regular ARM processor.

    M1 MacOS will never run on a "garden variety" ARM chip. Apple learned their lesson with all the Hackintoshes.

    The kind of control Apple wants on their products seems weird to me at times. I remember Apple allowing Mac clones in the 90s (and there were some Mac clones made by Motorola and Power Computing etc.), but they stopped that when Steve Jobs came back. And when they started using Intel processors, one of their advertised advantages was that you could easily run Windows alongside Mac OS so you could use apps that were only available for Windows if you wanted to.

    I've thought it would be interesting if Apple opened up their Mac OS X so that it could officially be installed on any PC, but with their mindset, I don't see them doing that.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From 2twisty@21:3/166 to Nightfox on Wed Apr 20 11:12:31 2022
    times. I remember Apple allowing Mac clones in the 90s (and there were some Mac clones made by Motorola and Power Computing etc.), but they stopped that when Steve Jobs came back. And when they started using

    Jobs put an end to that due to quality issues with the clones, and his desire to control the entire user experience.


    Intel processors, one of their advertised advantages was that you could easily run Windows alongside Mac OS so you could use apps that were only available for Windows if you wanted to.

    ...and you still can, via emulation. The M1 is powerful enough to emulate x86-64.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Ratrace Losers (21:3/166)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 07:19:03 2022
    On 20 Apr 2022 at 10:00a, Nightfox pondered and said...

    I've thought it would be interesting if Apple opened up their Mac OS X
    so that it could officially be installed on any PC, but with their mindset, I don't see them doing that.

    Well the XNU kernel in the form of Darwin is very much
    open source. https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu

    However, one won't get all the nifty Apple goodies just
    from that.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to 2twisty on Wed Apr 20 12:56:59 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: 2twisty to Nightfox on Wed Apr 20 2022 11:12 am

    Jobs put an end to that due to quality issues with the clones, and his desire to control the entire user experience.

    What quality issues did the clones have?

    Intel processors, one of their advertised advantages was that you
    could easily run Windows alongside Mac OS so you could use apps that
    were only available for Windows if you wanted to.

    ...and you still can, via emulation. The M1 is powerful enough to emulate x86-64.

    I figured as much. But that wouldn't be as efficient as running Windows natively.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Wed Apr 20 09:24:00 2022
    I wonder if someone will end up finding a hack for that to get OS X running on other ARM-based devices - maybe even things like a Raspberry Pi.

    I would expect so, but I also suspect the run of the mill ARM processors are going to have to catch up on some performance issues before it becomes
    viable. The problem there after will be appropriate drivers.

    Switch to the hackintosh theme for a moment, I've never bothered myself. The sound guy at the church I was streaming for had one. He had software for OSX that wasn't available for WinDoze. Don't ask me what because I have all the audio ability of a plank of wood. By the time I was over the church he was back to using WinDoze exclusively. So its probably still a matter of horses for courses, use whatever has the best tools for the job.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 07:08:00 2022
    Apple could ADD additional instruction sets to the base ARM design, and then writing their source code to use those insructions. A regular ARM chip would have no idea how to use it.

    Yeah, I wondered about that. Apple's customizations that go into their
    M1 may make it a bit different from a regular ARM processor.

    They could but to this point they don't appear to be reinventing the wheel, just optimising it. I believe, and once again I can't quote this, it was all over the place for a while... Apple merely optimised the support chips and layout adding cache and memory to the die. Decreasing the fab from 16nm to
    5nm process.

    So better efficiency, lower power consumption. Otherwise basically the same bits and pieces as any other ARM processor with support chips.


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 07:21:00 2022
    The kind of control Apple wants on their products seems weird to me at times. I remember Apple allowing Mac clones in the 90s (and there were some Mac clones made by Motorola and Power Computing etc.), but they stopped that when Steve Jobs came back. And when they started using Intel processors, one of their advertised advantages was that you could easily run Windows alongside Mac OS so you could use apps that were only available for Windows if you wanted to.

    The thing with the 90's Apple is it was being run by the Softdrink man, John Sculley. During this period Apple started haemorrhaging cash making so many different models which overlapped in features and target audience. The licensing fees from clones was an added income stream. This is also about
    the time they get a loan from MicroSloth to keep themselves afloat.

    The first thing Jobs does on his return is eliminate the clone licensing, why give them the tools to defeat you on your own turf. They're more margin
    driven than volume driven at this time, making less per license than their "model" which is a computer with their OS. The Apple II line finally gets
    the kibosh here too.

    Their thing here is to have a computer hardware, with their perceived
    advances and advantages to it along with an OS thats rock solid. They do this pretty well. Its definitely more stable than Windoze. Around this time the biggest probem I see in Macs with issues, is third party hardware, and HD failure and this mostly on ToasterMac age systems.


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to 2twisty on Thu Apr 21 07:26:00 2022
    ...and you still can, via emulation. The M1 is powerful enough to emulate x86-64.

    Its got Rosetta built into the CPU silicon. It can out perform any intel powered mac using this translation layer while only managing ~80% of native chip performance.


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to tenser on Thu Apr 21 07:28:00 2022
    Well the XNU kernel in the form of Darwin is very much open source.

    However, one won't get all the nifty Apple goodies just from that.

    Its also difficult to add Darwin based applications to Apple's Darwin though. Its got enough going on to make it that much more difficult.


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 07:43:00 2022
    ...and you still can, via emulation. The M1 is powerful enough to
    emulate x86-64.

    I figured as much. But that wouldn't be as efficient as running Windows natively.

    Ahhh not so.. depends on the CPU you're going to be using. The M1 can emulate faster than Intel CPUs but its not at the level of being able to outrun AMD silicon although it'll give it a good shake. Performance degradation in the user space in minimal. Obviously M1 native applications will run faster though.


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to acn on Wed Apr 20 06:44:00 2022
    acn wrote to The Millionaire <=-

    I used to have an iPhone 4 and loved it - until iOS 7 came out and
    made it absolutely unusable. I walked to an official Apple Store and
    asked how I could revert to iOS 6, they said "it's impossible" - and I walked out of the shop, right into another shop and bought a Galaxy
    S4.
    Since then, I'm using Android, which also has its rough edges, but did
    not cripple my devices (yet). And the devices I bought were 'open
    enough' that I could install alternative systems.

    I had the best of both worlds for a time. Work paid for a nice iPhone 6s
    with a good amount of storage, but I started playing with an old Samsung S3 and liked the promise that Android had back then. Then, I was laid off, returned the iPhone and switched to the S3 permanently.

    I love the ecosystem, being able to pick apps, root the device, run Linux on it if I really wanted to, and even ran a third party Android distro for a while (LineageOS).

    My son is 18, all of his friends have Android. My daughter is 12, and all of her friends have iPhones. Weird. It's a problem because her friends want to FaceTime with her, and I don't know of a kid in her class running Android. I guess that's exactly as Apple planned...




    I also loved my old PowerBook G4 that I bought many years ago and the
    iMac 21" from 2010 - but here Apple also crippled the system and dumbed-down everything (I loved Apple Pages until it could not even
    read its own old documents correctly after a major update), so I
    installed Linux on the iMac and used it for some years as a Linux
    system. That was my last Apple computer.

    Regards,
    Anna


    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)

    ... ONE OUT OF FIVE DENTISTS RECOMMEND GUM.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 06:15:00 2022
    Nightfox wrote to 2twisty <=-

    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: 2twisty to Nightfox on Wed Apr 20 2022 11:12 am

    Jobs put an end to that due to quality issues with the clones, and his desire to control the entire user experience.

    What quality issues did the clones have?

    They were leaking money from Apple. :)

    I remember the hornet's nest stirred up when Steve Jobs came back, cancelled the clone licenses and killed off the Newton. There were avid fan bases of both.


    ... Magnify the most difficult details
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 16:08:00 2022
    Am 20.04.22 schrieb Nightfox@21:1/137 in FSX_GEN:

    Hallo Nightfox,

    Jobs put an end to that due to quality issues with the clones, and his 2t>> desire to control the entire user experience.

    What quality issues did the clones have?

    As far as I know, they were more powerful and less expensive than the comparable Apple machines.

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Spectre on Thu Apr 21 09:23:12 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: Spectre to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 2022 07:08 am

    They could but to this point they don't appear to be reinventing the wheel, just optimising it. I believe, and once again I can't quote this, it was all over the place for a while... Apple merely optimised the support chips and layout adding cache and memory to the die. Decreasing the fab from 16nm to 5nm process.

    So better efficiency, lower power consumption. Otherwise basically the same bits and pieces as any other ARM processor with support chips.

    From my understanding, that's basically how the ARM model works. Companies license the ARM processor designs, then they can either just make the ARM processor as is or add onto it according to their needs. Apple seems to have done that with their M1 processor.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Spectre on Thu Apr 21 09:26:27 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: Spectre to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 2022 07:21 am

    The first thing Jobs does on his return is eliminate the clone licensing, why give them the tools to defeat you on your own turf. They're more

    I always thought that was an interesting attitude. Apple seems to be more concerned with making and selling the physical devices rather than bringing income from their software. Microsoft became successful making money from their software licensing, including their operating systems. Apple could probably have done the same by allowing the clone manufacturers to exist and also perhaps by selling their Mac OS (and perhaps allowing Mac OS to be installed on any non-Apple PC). But Apple has not chosen that route. They're all about controlling both the hardware and software.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Apr 21 09:33:16 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 2022 06:15 am

    What quality issues did the clones have?

    They were leaking money from Apple. :)

    I remember the hornet's nest stirred up when Steve Jobs came back, cancelled the clone licenses and killed off the Newton. There were avid fan bases of both.

    The Mac clones seemed interesting back in the day. They looked somewhere in between a PC and a Mac and were able to run Mac OS just like a regular Mac. The interesting thing was, I think many of them tended to use more standard ports & such, like a regular VGA port for the monitor rather than Apple's proprietary monitor port (which was compatible with VGA - I've seen adapters for Apple's monitor port that have a standard VGA port so you can use any monitor).

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to acn on Thu Apr 21 09:33:44 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: acn to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 2022 04:08 pm

    Jobs put an end to that due to quality issues with the clones, and
    his desire to control the entire user experience.

    What quality issues did the clones have?

    As far as I know, they were more powerful and less expensive than the comparable Apple machines.

    Those don't sound like quality issues. ;)

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Spectre on Thu Apr 21 09:45:09 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: Spectre to 2twisty on Thu Apr 21 2022 07:26 am

    ...and you still can, via emulation. The M1 is powerful enough to
    emulate x86-64.

    Its got Rosetta built into the CPU silicon. It can out perform any intel powered mac using this translation layer while only managing ~80% of native chip performance.

    It's in the CPU itself? That would mean it could translate x86 to ARM fairly efficiently and transparently. Would that also mean that you could potentially install an x86-compatible OS (such as Windows) and have it appear to run "natively" on it?

    I'm a bit surprised, since the previous incarnation of Rosetta (when Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel) was a piece of software that was installed on Mac OS X.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Nightfox on Fri Apr 22 08:59:10 2022
    On 21 Apr 2022 at 09:45a, Nightfox pondered and said...

    ...and you still can, via emulation. The M1 is powerful enough to
    emulate x86-64.

    Its got Rosetta built into the CPU silicon. It can out perform any in powered mac using this translation layer while only managing ~80% of native chip performance.

    It's in the CPU itself?

    No.

    That would mean it could translate x86 to ARM
    fairly efficiently and transparently. Would that also mean that you
    could potentially install an x86-compatible OS (such as Windows) and
    have it appear to run "natively" on it?

    Rosetta 2 is software that does binary translating from
    x86 instructions to ARM. It is a software component. It
    does not support e.g. booting Windows natively.

    I'm a bit surprised, since the previous incarnation of Rosetta (when
    Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel) was a piece of software that was installed on Mac OS X.

    Rosetta 2 is similar.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to tenser on Thu Apr 21 15:05:49 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: tenser to Nightfox on Fri Apr 22 2022 08:59 am

    Its got Rosetta built into the CPU silicon. It can out perform

    It's in the CPU itself?

    No.

    Rosetta 2 is software that does binary translating from
    x86 instructions to ARM. It is a software component. It
    does not support e.g. booting Windows natively.

    That's what I thought initially. I had done some reading about it online and it sounded like it was a software component, like the original Rosetta, and not actually in the M1 processor itself.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Fri Apr 22 10:36:00 2022
    From my understanding, that's basically how the ARM model works.

    The only real difference, was Apple to all the parts and redesigned/optimised in house, and thus far aren't sharing. As is their way

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Fri Apr 22 10:43:00 2022
    I always thought that was an interesting attitude. Apple seems to be more

    Sculley had some odd thoughts about trying to make a system for each niche, until they had the market confused with to many offerings that didn't have sufficient turnover of any particular model.

    Jobs cut it all back and streamlined it, went more the Henry Ford model, you can have whatever you want so long as its this one, I think is best for you.

    bringing income from their software. Microsoft became successful making money from their software licensing, including their operating systems.

    Thats because of their target market though. When IBM created the PC and XT they basically just gave it away, anyone could make copies of it. There's not much value trying to compete in a budget hardware space. They have dabbled in hardware, SoftCard was an example of that, a Z80 CP/M card for the Apple II.

    There also wasn't a lot of point trying to out manouver Apple on their own operating system either.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From 2twisty@21:3/166 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 19:32:59 2022
    That's what I thought initially. I had done some reading about it
    online and it sounded like it was a software component, like the
    original Rosetta, and not actually in the M1 processor itself.

    IIRC, Rosetta (1) did real-time instruction translation every time you ran the app. Rosetta (2) does the translation ONCE and stores some kind of translated binary on the filesystem.

    This allows for Rosetta (2) to run apps much quicker once the translation has happened.

    Not 100% sure of this, but I thought I read/saw that somewhere when the M1 came out.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Ratrace Losers (21:3/166)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Spectre on Thu Apr 21 19:04:12 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: Spectre to Nightfox on Fri Apr 22 2022 10:43 am

    I always thought that was an interesting attitude. Apple seems to
    be more

    Sculley had some odd thoughts about trying to make a system for each niche, until they had the market confused with to many offerings that didn't have sufficient turnover of any particular model.

    I was actually referring to Jobs eliminating the clones, and Apple's desire to make both the hardware and the software. But it was a bit weird that Apple had so many different models in the 90s.

    bringing income from their software. Microsoft became successful
    making money from their software licensing, including their
    operating systems.

    Thats because of their target market though. When IBM created the PC and XT they basically just gave it away, anyone could make copies of it. There's not much value trying to compete in a budget hardware space.

    I thought I had heard that IBM originally didn't want other companies to make copies of it. I'd heard other companies reverse-engineered the IBM BIOS used in their PC in order to make clones, and that IBM had some lawsuits against the other companies, but IBM lost.

    There also wasn't a lot of point trying to out manouver Apple on their own operating system either.

    MS-DOS came out before Apple's Mac OS (and I think even the Lisa OS) though.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to 2twisty on Thu Apr 21 19:05:21 2022
    Re: Re: Hackintosh
    By: 2twisty to Nightfox on Thu Apr 21 2022 07:32 pm

    That's what I thought initially. I had done some reading about it
    online and it sounded like it was a software component, like the
    original Rosetta, and not actually in the M1 processor itself.

    IIRC, Rosetta (1) did real-time instruction translation every time you ran the app. Rosetta (2) does the translation ONCE and stores some kind of translated binary on the filesystem.

    This allows for Rosetta (2) to run apps much quicker once the translation has happened.

    Not 100% sure of this, but I thought I read/saw that somewhere when the M1 came out.

    Yeah, I was reading about it again, and it sounds like the new Rosetta translates an x86 app for the M1 and then stores a cached copy of the M1 version so it doesn't have to translate it again.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Fri Apr 22 12:02:00 2022
    It's in the CPU itself? That would mean it could translate x86 to ARM fairly efficiently and transparently. Would that also mean that you could potentially install an x86-compatible OS (such as Windows) and have it appear to run "natively" on it?

    One supposes so, but you'd need a boot loader probably, enough native ARM
    code to get it booted, enable the translation and then start loading Windoze
    or other. I think... but I'm not 100% that I've heard reference to running Windoze itself inside OSX... Looks like I was wrong about it being in the silicon though.. I can only see reference to it as part of OSX now.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Fri Apr 22 13:40:00 2022
    As a quick aside, I've never bought a windoze license in my life.

    Sculley had some odd thoughts about trying to make a system for each niche, until they had the market confused with to many offerings that didn't have sufficient turnover of any particular model.

    I was actually referring to Jobs eliminating the clones, and Apple's desire to make both the hardware and the software. But it was a bit weird that Apple had so many different models in the 90s.

    The two things are related... the clones were a licensing income stream to
    help support the fact that Apple was producing to much inventory. The
    drastic rationalisation of models, and the cutting of the clones at the same time, brings all the business home into better defined channels at least as
    far as Apple is concerned.

    Jobs model was always to maintain control over the whole box and dice. He was trying to sell you a complete solution this is our way, this is how it works. Take it or leave it.


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)