• Look ma! No hands!

    From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to mark lewis on Mon Jan 14 02:31:20 2019
    Hey mark!

    This entire msg, including FTN datetime, to, from and subject fields with null terminators, was created with bash's printf builtin function. No editor was harmed in the making of it.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... We still be bashing.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Jan 14 09:03:13 2019
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2019-01-14 02:31:20, you wrote to mark lewis:

    @MSGID: 5c3bf478

    This entire msg, including FTN datetime, to, from and subject fields
    with null terminators, was created with bash's printf builtin
    function. No editor was harmed in the making of it.

    Then it should be easy to add a CHRS, TZUTC, PID and TID kludge! ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Rob Swindell@1:103/705 to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Jan 14 00:49:50 2019
    Re: Re: Look ma! No hands!
    By: Wilfred van Velzen to Maurice Kinal on Mon Jan 14 2019 09:03 am

    Hi Maurice,

    On 2019-01-14 02:31:20, you wrote to mark lewis:

    @MSGID: 5c3bf478

    This entire msg, including FTN datetime, to, from and subject fields with null terminators, was created with bash's printf builtin
    function. No editor was harmed in the making of it.

    Then it should be easy to add a CHRS, TZUTC, PID and TID kludge! ;)

    Shouldn't the "tosser" be one to add its TID?

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #58:
    The last version of Synchronet to run on MS-DOS and OS/2 was v2.30c (1999). Norco, CA WX: 52.6F, 69.0% humidity, 4 mph WSW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Rob Swindell on Mon Jan 14 09:51:15 2019
    Hi Rob,

    On 2019-01-14 00:49:50, you wrote to me:

    This entire msg, including FTN datetime, to, from and subject
    fields
    with null terminators, was created with bash's printf builtin
    function. No editor was harmed in the making of it.

    Then it should be easy to add a CHRS, TZUTC, PID and TID kludge! ;)

    Shouldn't the "tosser" be one to add its TID?

    Yes, but in his case that's also his bash scripts, afaik...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Jan 14 08:47:03 2019
    Hallo Wilfred!

    Then it should be easy to add a CHRS, TZUTC, PID and TID kludge

    Easy yes. The tearline says it all as far as PID and TID is concerned.

    As for CHRS a simple scan shows that it is all ascii text, including the Dutch tagline and signoff. However if needed I can put in a "CHRS: UTF-8 4" if and when it matters except that I seem to be the only one who can handle utf8 and none of my software requires a kludge for it seeing aall my used software can properly detect and display utf-8 characters.

    The obsolete FTN DateTime stamp in the MSG header is UTC as it should be so a TZUTC doesn't add anything of consequence, especially one that isn't compliant to accepted worldwide standards for a timezone offset.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Huil niet om mij, ik heb vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Jan 14 11:34:00 2019
    Hello Maurice!

    14 Jan 19 08:47, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    I probaly should not, but I like your approach to defaults.
    Kludges are only there to cover deficiencies.

    Het leven is goed,

    In het Brabantse land.

    ... Huil niet om mij, ik heb vi.

    Geef mij maar een bord balkenbrij. (rather not)

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jan 14 13:07:19 2019
    Hallo Kees!

    Kludges are only there to cover deficiencies.

    One thing for sure is that they don't solve anything and more often create more
    deficiencies. The lack of a '+' character for offsets east of prime meridian is a case in point as well as the so-called level in the CHRS kludge. However I do see a need for identification of the 8 bit character sets although I wish the FTSC would have used proper aliases as given by those who own them. LATIN1
    is a very good example.

    In het Brabantse land.

    They stole my line!!! Tsk, tsk. I did see somewhere that someone unsuccessfully tried to sue over palagerism.

    Geef mij maar een bord balkenbrij.

    Your loss. It remains the best editor ever created, although when I first encountered vi I absolutely hated it. That was a very long time ago in a land far, far away.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Huil niet om mij, ik heb vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Jan 14 15:32:58 2019
    Hello Maurice!

    14 Jan 19 13:07, you wrote to me:

    One thing for sure is that they don't solve anything and more often create more deficiencies. The lack of a '+' character for offsets east of prime meridian is a case in point as well as the so-called level in the CHRS kludge. However I do see a need for identification of the 8 bit character sets although I wish the FTSC would have used proper aliases as given by those who own them. LATIN1 is a very good example.

    We had that discussion before. It is almost line a chicken and egg discussion.

    In het Brabantse land.

    They stole my line!!! Tsk, tsk. I did see somewhere that someone unsuccessfully tried to sue over palagerism.

    Any way, they are the first two lines of a Dutch song.

    Geef mij maar een bord balkenbrij.

    Your loss. It remains the best editor ever created, although when I first encountered vi I absolutely hated it. That was a very long time ago in a land far, far away.

    This is Balkenbrij : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkenbrij

    I have used Vi, ever since I got a copy of the KMS-Toolkit for Dos.
    But I only use a small subset of its possibilities. The same goes for Bash.

    Altough in the times of the KMS-toolkit itr was probably the Korn-shell.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jan 14 15:09:51 2019
    Hallo Kees!

    Any way, they are the first two lines of a Dutch song.

    Yes I know ... now. I looked it up.

    This is Balkenbrij

    And this is a good thing? I'll stick with vi. ;-)

    in the times of the KMS-toolkit itr was probably the Korn-shell

    I started out with c-shell (csh). I started using bash when I first installed slackware on a 486.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Huil niet om mij, ik heb vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Jan 14 20:33:50 2019
    Halo Wilfred!

    Then it should be easy to add a CHRS, TZUTC, PID and TID kludge

    Two out of four kludges with this new-ish one out of three machines. Here is some text to make it accurate; A Møøse once bit my sister.

    La vida es buena,
    Maurice

    ... No llores por mi tengo vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (aarch64-raspi3b+-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Jan 14 22:15:58 2019
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2019-01-14 20:33:50, you wrote to me:

    @MSGID: 2:280/464.113 5c3cf22e
    @REPLY: 2:280/464 5c3c4288
    @CHRS: UTF-8 4

    Halo Wilfred!

    I think you meant 'Hallo'. ;)

    Then it should be easy to add a CHRS, TZUTC, PID and TID kludge

    Two out of four kludges with this new-ish one out of three machines. Here is some text to make it accurate; A Møøse once bit my sister.

    ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Jan 14 14:14:26 2019
    Hallo Wilfred!

    I think you meant 'Hallo'.

    Check the tearline for "MSGID: 2:280/464.113 5c3cf22e". On that machine the default language for the bash script is Spanish, whereas on this machine it is Dutch;

    -={ '<Esc>:read !cal -y' starts }=-
    2019

    januari februari maart
    ma di wo do vr za zo ma di wo do vr za zo ma di wo do vr za zo
    1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 1 2 3
    7 8 9 10 11 12 13 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
    14 15 16 17 18 19 20 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
    21 22 23 24 25 26 27 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
    28 29 30 31 25 26 27 28 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

    april mei juni
    ma di wo do vr za zo ma di wo do vr za zo ma di wo do vr za zo
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 1 2
    8 9 10 11 12 13 14 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    15 16 17 18 19 20 21 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    22 23 24 25 26 27 28 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    29 30 27 28 29 30 31 24 25 26 27 28 29 30

    juli augustus september
    ma di wo do vr za zo ma di wo do vr za zo ma di wo do vr za zo
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 1
    8 9 10 11 12 13 14 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
    15 16 17 18 19 20 21 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
    22 23 24 25 26 27 28 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
    29 30 31 26 27 28 29 30 31 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
    30
    oktober november december
    ma di wo do vr za zo ma di wo do vr za zo ma di wo do vr za zo
    1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 1
    7 8 9 10 11 12 13 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
    14 15 16 17 18 19 20 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
    21 22 23 24 25 26 27 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
    28 29 30 31 25 26 27 28 29 30 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
    30 31
    -={ '<Esc>:read !cal -y' ends }=-

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Huil niet om mij, ik heb vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Jan 15 08:44:25 2019
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2019-01-14 14:14:26, you wrote to me:

    Hallo Wilfred!

    I think you meant 'Hallo'.

    Check the tearline for "MSGID: 2:280/464.113 5c3cf22e". On that machine the default language for the bash script is Spanish, whereas on this machine it is Dutch;

    So shouldn't it have been 'Hola' instead of 'Halo' ? ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Jan 15 09:25:40 2019
    Hallo Wilfred!

    So shouldn't it have been 'Hola' instead of 'Halo' ? ;)

    Yes it should. Thank you for pointing it out. I'll correct it later as I currently am working on bringing it up to date. Please stay tuned.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Huil niet om mij, ik heb vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Jan 15 10:30:18 2019
    Hola Wilfred!

    So shouldn't it have been 'Hola' instead of 'Halo' ? ;)

    It is now. Thank you again for pointing it out.

    Still in the middle of the upgrade of aarch64-raspi3b+-linux-gnu but the next certified Møøse MSG should reflect the change in the tearline. I thought I'd
    better take care of this while it is still fresh in my mind. Getting older and
    stupider is my excuse. :::sigh:::

    La vida es buena,
    Maurice

    ... No llores por mi tengo vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-beta2 (aarch64-raspi3b+-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Jan 15 19:53:04 2019
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2019-01-15 10:30:18, you wrote to me:

    Hola Wilfred!

    So shouldn't it have been 'Hola' instead of 'Halo' ? ;)

    It is now. Thank you again for pointing it out.

    Looking good! :)

    Still in the middle of the upgrade of aarch64-raspi3b+-linux-gnu but
    the next certified Møøse MSG should reflect the change in the
    tearline. I thought I'd better take care of this while it is still
    fresh in my mind. Getting older and stupider is my excuse. :::sigh:::

    La vida es buena,
    Maurice

    ... No llores por mi tengo vi.

    I can't help you there, I know no spanish at all, except for 'Hola', but google
    helped me there ;-).

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Jan 15 14:12:10 2019
    On 2019 Jan 14 02:31:20, you wrote to me:

    Hey mark!

    This entire msg, including FTN datetime, to, from and subject fields with null terminators, was created with bash's printf builtin function. No editor was harmed in the making of it.

    AFAICT, it looks fine here...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... In the South the tea is iced and sweet as the women.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Jan 15 14:13:10 2019
    On 2019 Jan 14 08:47:02, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    The obsolete FTN DateTime stamp in the MSG header is UTC as it should be
    so
    a TZUTC doesn't add anything of consequence, especially one that isn't compliant to accepted worldwide standards for a timezone offset.

    actually, it does add something of consequence... especially for systems that display the message's written time in local time or UTC if configured to do so... you cannot convert to/from local/UTC if the TZ isn't known...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... The general direction of the Alps is straight up.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to mark lewis on Tue Jan 15 17:51:46 2019
    Hey mark!

    systems that display the message's written time in local time or
    UTC if configured to do so

    I've yet to see any BBS get that right if indeed the BBS software can be configured to do so. Do you have or know of a working example that indeed gets
    it right?

    you cannot convert to/from local/UTC if the TZ isn't known

    Understood. Speaking for myself, I have never bothered and don't use the FTN datetime for anything, nevermind converting it even if only display purposes. What I was taught AGES ago is the data is the data even when it is obviously wrong, and that to tamper with raw data is EXTREMELY vorbotten.

    If I cared, for local display I would do something like this (using the datetime and TZUTC from "MSGID: 1:3634/12.73 5c3e3137");

    TZ=UTC date --date="15 Jan 19 14:13:10 -0500"

    which outputs "Tue Jan 15 19:13:10 UTC 2019" on the machine I am currently using to reply. Assuming a FTN compliant "TZUTC: 0000" that translates to;

    TZ=UTC date --date="15 Jan 19 14:13:10 0000"

    which outputs "date: invalid date '15 Jan 19 14:13:10 0000'". However if I add the '+' character to the start of the offset string then it outputs, "Tue Jan 15 14:13:10 UTC 2019". In other words proper datetime applications based on the strftime function will only work with utc offset data with the correct prefix for east (+) or west (-) of prime meridian. Your mileage may vary.

    Note that this reply doesn't contain a CHRS control line given that it is pure ascii. :-)

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Jan 15 22:21:44 2019
    On 2019 Jan 15 17:51:46, you wrote to me:

    systems that display the message's written time in local time or UTC
    if configured to do so

    I've yet to see any BBS get that right if indeed the BBS software can
    be configured to do so.

    i didn't say anyting about a BBS ;)

    Do you have or know of a working example that indeed gets it right?

    i've known of several over the years... i think Synchronet BBS does but i haven't looked very closely to see for sure... i'm not positive but maybe some of the sysop readers like golded and timed... i know i've seen the capability in the past because it was interesting to read a message that had only been posted minutes before and i was able to tell this because the "date written" displayed in the reader i was using was my local time and the writer was several timezones removed... looking at the raw message showed the actual date stored in the message...

    you cannot convert to/from local/UTC if the TZ isn't known

    Understood. Speaking for myself, I have never bothered and don't use the FTN datetime for anything, nevermind converting it even if only display purposes. What I was taught AGES ago is the data is the data even when it is obviously wrong, and that to tamper with raw data is EXTREMELY vorbotten.

    we're not tampering with anything... we taking one set of time representation numbers and adjusting them to local or UTC time... it is a simple thing to do if all the necessary parts are available...

    If I cared, for local display I would do something like this (using
    the datetime and TZUTC from "MSGID: 1:3634/12.73 5c3e3137");

    yes, i'm very familiar with the date command... i normally use it for something
    like this...

    blahblah | tee $(date +%Y%m%d%H%M%SUTC%z)-blahblah.log

    depending on the processing being logged, "%S" may be left out... and then there's a majikal

    $(date +%j)

    that one might find useful when dealing with FTN nodelists and similar other things that need the DOY for their work ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... A single great deed can be undone by the sum of many small actions.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to mark lewis on Tue Jan 15 20:11:37 2019
    Hey mark!

    i think Synchronet BBS does but i haven't looked very closely to
    see for sure

    I'll check later. I am curious but somewhat distracted at the moment with the raspi3b+ thingy I am poking at as we speak.

    we're not tampering with anything

    I wasn't talking for we ... whoever we are. All I am saying is that I don't touch the originals, even for display purposes and definetly don't use it for sorts. First come, first serve has been my motto.

    it is a simple thing to do if all the necessary parts are
    available...

    Sure. Have fun. Personally I plan to continue ignoring them, including the TZUTC kludges ... including mine. All three systems here are still UTC no matter what the TZUTC says, although for the record it is adjusted to PST8PDT from the MSG's unixtime which is stored as a 32 bit hex number in the MSGID.

    $(date +%j)

    That is only good for the year it is being used in. For archiving the %Y%m%d%H%M%SUTC%z is better but I prefer the simpler %s which should be unique for all time and can be used to extact %j and/or %Y%m%d%H%M%SUTC%z from if and when needed. For even greater uniqueness I've been known to use %s.%N.

    Let's see if the Møøse certification dealie is working. If so then this MSG will contain a CHRS thingy ... which can and will be ignored I am sure. ;-)

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.0(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)