Hello There,

More gun laws will NOT prevent gun related killings. Change the mentality and mindset of people and the existence of guns is a moot point. Some decades ago there used to be a rifle in back window of most pickups. And there was a lot less gun related killings. There are a number of countries where gun ownership is a common thing and those same countries have relatively low gun related deaths. Anyone can justify in their own mind the logic of their own personal view on the idea of gun control. Myself included. But lets look at what the reality of what is and what was. Many locations where there have been increased gun control laws have not resulted in lower gun related crimes. IMHO, these days we see increased deaths related to guns and need to put the responsibly on something that explains and accounts for those deaths. We look outward for a place to put that responsibility when we should really be looking inward on what we need to change in ourselves.


Jeff

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More gun laws will NOT prevent gun related killings. Change the mentality and

Having law enforcement do their jobs might. The FBI had been tipped that
this latest school shooter was a problem long before. The local cops knew
all about his troubles. No one did anything, so it is the fault of the firearms that he used. Without access to firearms, someone with this many issues would have simply become the next school bomber or vehicular-manslaughterer.

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Hello Mike,

More gun laws will NOT prevent gun related killings. Change the mentality and

Having law enforcement do their jobs might. The FBI had been tipped that this latest school shooter was a problem long before. The local cops knew all about his troubles.

I have no problem with people who have documented mental health issues being prevented from purchasing, owning, or possessing a firearm. Or those that shown a inability to safely operate a firearm.

No one did anything, so it is the fault of the
firearms that he used.

So... Just to make sure I understand correctly. It is the fault of the firearm because others didn't do what they should/could have done to prevent the shooting?

What did the gun do that made it the gun's fault? The gun didn't decide to shoot anyone. The shooter decided to pull the trigger.

Without access to firearms, someone with this many issues would have simply become the next school bomber or vehicular-manslaughterer.

I may be misunderstanding your intent. But, guns, knives, vehicles, Etc. don't decide to kill or hurt anyone. If someone with violent intent who decides to hurt/kill someone. They are likely to use what tools that are available to them at that moment. The answer is NOT to ban ownership of whatever thing that they might consider using to accomplish their violent deed. Again, the answer is not to blame the thing when the responsibility belongs to the person.

Jeff

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On 02/17/18, Jeff Smith said the following...

I have no problem with people who have documented mental health issues being prevented from purchasing, owning, or possessing a firearm. Or
those that shown a inability to safely operate a firearm.

Here in Canada if you want to own firearms you must first earn a license by completing some mandatory training and passing some tests. You also may not apply for a license and can lose an existing one if you're found to be incompetent or psychologically unsound. It's not all that different from a vehicle license like that.

That said, if someone is unhinged and looking to go on a rampage I very much doubt they will pay gun control laws much mind regardless of how strict they are. The weapons will be obtained illegally and used anyway.

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No one did anything, so it is the fault of the
firearms that he used.

So... Just to make sure I understand correctly. It is the fault of the

firearm

because others didn't do what they should/could have done to prevent the shooting?

No, sorry, there is a sarcasm marker missing there. I feel like everyone blames the firearms when, in this case and many others, law enforcement did
not do their job beforehand. Had they done so, the problem would have been less likely to occur.

OTOH, if someone that messed up did not have a gun, they'd have just built
a bomb or run a bunch of classmates over with a vehicle. ISIS has proven
that in Europe quite a few times... no guns is not a problem for lunatics
and dumbasses.

My honest opinion is that the FBI needs to stop looking for dirt on the President, get off their asses, and do their real job of keeping us safe.

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Hello John,

Here in Canada if you want to own firearms you must first earn a license by completing some mandatory training and passing some tests. You also may not apply for a license and can lose an existing one if you're found to be incompetent or psychologically unsound. It's not all that different from a vehicle license like that.

Here in the US the specific laws vary from state to state. Usually with less laws regarding purchase than carrying. While I am against laws than ban ownership. I wouldn't be against there being a requirement to pass a gun safety
class prior to gun acquirement. In fact I help teach a class on gun safety locally that is required prior to getting a hunting license. The usual class is
comprised of mostly 10-20 year olds.

That said, if someone is unhinged and looking to go on a rampage I very much doubt they will pay gun control laws much mind regardless of how strict they are. The weapons will be obtained illegally and used anyway.

That is the problem as I see it. How does the state know what someone might do or what psychological inclination someone might have toward killing one or more
people? If someone is determined to kill one or more people they are not likely to care about what gun laws that might exist. They will be able to acquire a gun regardless of any existing gun laws. And if a gun isn't available
they are likely to do their killing in other ways using some other device.

Jeff


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That is the problem as I see it. How does the state know what someone might do or what psychological inclination someone might have toward killing one or more people? If someone is determined to kill one or more people they are not likely to care about what gun laws that might exist. They will be able to acquire a gun regardless of any existing gun laws. And if a gun isn't available they are likely to do their killing in
other ways using some other device.

That is very true. But also here in Canada because of the current laws it's pretty hard for Joe average to get an illegal gun. Usually illegal guns come from organized crime and are smuggled in to the country or less common but still happens is they are stolen from legal gun owners. Problem is when the government introduces more laws restricting legal gun owners but does nothing to curb illegal guns. We also see that if they can't get guns then they can just rent a van and go on a killing spree any way. Why wasn't there a
detailed background check done on this guy before he was allowed to rent a
van? I'm speaking of Toronto.

Stephen

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Hello Stephen,

That is the problem as I see it. How does the state know what someone
might do or what psychological inclination someone might have toward
killing one or more people? If someone is determined to kill one or more
people they are not likely to care about what gun laws that might exist.
They will be able to acquire a gun regardless of any existing gun laws.
And if a gun isn't available they are likely to do their killing in
other ways using some other device.

That is very true. But also here in Canada because of the current laws it's pretty hard for Joe average to get an illegal gun. Usually illegal guns come from organized crime and are smuggled in to the country or less common but still happens is they are stolen from legal gun owners.

Usually if there is a demand for a product there will be those that will work to satisfy that demand. In this case provide guns.

Problem is when the
government introduces more laws restricting legal gun owners but does nothing to curb illegal guns. We also see that if they can't get guns then they can just rent a van and go on a killing spree any way. Why wasn't there a detailed background check done on this guy before he was allowed to rent a van? I'm speaking of Toronto.

True. If guns become harder to acquire then those inclined to kill will simply look at alternatives to accomplish their desired task. That is why I have had the attitude that if the mindset of people can be changed/improved then the availability of guns isn't or at least a far lesser of a factor.

I know, that is a much harder solution to accomplish. And I would suspect that to some that scream "More Gun Laws" is because they don't want to face or accept the actual cause of the problem. People decide to kill others. A gun, knife, car, truck, bomb doesn't decide to kill anyone.


Jeff


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On 2018 Apr 26 15:47:56, you wrote to Jeff Smith:

Problem is when the government introduces more laws restricting legal
gun owners but does nothing to curb illegal guns.

the problem is that people and the gov't don't see or understand that a criminal, by definition, doesn't care about the law... they will do what they want regardless of what the law is... laws only apply to the lawful, not the lawless...

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Hello Mark,

Problem is when the government introduces more laws restricting legal
gun owners but does nothing to curb illegal guns.

the problem is that people and the gov't don't see or understand that a criminal, by definition, doesn't care about the law... they will do what they want regardless of what the law is... laws only apply to the lawful, not the lawless...

Agreed. Who would the stricter gun laws affect? The average law abiding gun owner. Who would the stricter gun laws not affect. The criminally minded as they already don't about any existing laws.

Jeff



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On 26 Apr 18 15:47:56, Phantom Nomad said the following to Jeff Smith:

just rent a van and go on a killing spree any way. Why wasn't there a detailed background check done on this guy before he was allowed to rent a van? I'm speaking of Toronto.

For the same reason there is no detailed background check when you:

- Rent a car
- Take a car for a test drive from a dealer
- Dealer sale
- Private sale
- Tow someone elses car... tow trucks can be used for a killing spree.
- Use a licensing-agent's car to pass a drivers license exam.

Or just borrow someone's car and mow down a bunch of people on another busy Toronto street. "But he seemed like such a normal person..."

Nick

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