• Name

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to All on Fri Jan 25 11:07:48 2019
    Hi, all!

    When you ask "What is your name?" what do you mean? The first name, second name, or both? For instance, a teacher asks this question of an unknown boy in the school. Should he ask "what is your second name?"

    From my present table book :)
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    ....Molly (Moon -AK) was just about ready now. Then another fear reared its head.
    If Molly was now Lucy Logan and Primo Cell's daughter, would she have to
    change her name? The thought that she might have to become Molly Cell or
    Molly Logan was extremely unsavory. Molly could already feel herself digging in
    her heels to refuse.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Bye, all!
    Alexander Koryagin

    ---
    * Origin: *** nntp://fidonews.mine.nu *** Finland *** (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Jan 28 23:24:17 2019
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    When you ask "What is your name?" what do you mean?


    Depends on the circumstances. John Jacob Jingleheimer-Schmidt might
    prefer to leave out some parts of his name for everyday purposes... and I think
    most people would understand that. But what parts are typically left out under
    what conditions? I'm glad you've explained the context here.... :-)



    The first name, second name, or both?


    If you & I were introducing ourselves because we were neighbours, or
    if we had just met at a social gathering arranged by a mutual friend, the first
    name would probably be sufficient. But this generality presupposes a number of
    things... e.g. that the setting is informal, that any difference in age &/or in
    socioeconomic status is irrelevant, and that both parties feel comfortable with
    the arrangement. It has the advantage that they can chat amicably, yet reserve
    judgement on whether or not to disclose any more personal information.... :-))



    For instance, a teacher asks this question of an unknown boy
    in the school. Should he ask "what is your second name?"


    Speaking as a teacher: Unless the school was very small I'd need to
    know more than the first name to distinguish one kid from another... especially
    if their parents chose it during a spate of increasing trendiness. When one of
    my former students rushes up to me enthusiastically & says "Hi... I'm Cathy (or
    Debbie, or whatever name +/- half my female students had back then)... remember
    me??" I must confess I probably won't unless they give me a few more clues. As
    a teacher & as a parent I also understand that the school has to use a person's
    legal name on all official records, and there is a lot of paperwork involved in
    establishing that everybody is who they say they are. If Molly's legal name is
    Molly Moon the school has no authority to change it without documentation which
    her new parents can't supply unless they've formally adopted her. But I gather
    Molly is new to this school & hasn't voiced her concerns to the staff.

    Depending on the age of your unknown boy, I would be inclined to say
    "family name" or "surname" rather than "second name". Around these parts it is
    more common than not for people to have two or more given names... and I'm told
    they may not appear in the order we're used to, relative to the family name, if
    the individual in question has just arrived from China or SomePlace Else & does
    not as yet know how to translate their given name into something which those of
    us who don't speak their lingo will remember &/or think we understand. There's
    another possible complication too, if the teacher doesn't know a boy's previous
    history. I can't say for sure whether you'd automatically identify yourself as
    "Koryagin" nowadays, if you'd spent the last umpteen years in a British private
    school, because I don't move in those circles. But I see plenty of evidence in
    the works of various authors that the tradition lasted for a long time.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Jan 29 20:38:40 2019
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 29.01.2019 00:24


    For instance, a teacher asks this question of an unknown boy in
    the school. Should he ask "what is your second name?"

    Speaking as a teacher: Unless the school was very small I'd need to
    know more than the first name to distinguish one kid from
    another... especially if their parents chose it during a spate of increasing trendiness. When one of my former students rushes up to
    me enthusiastically & says "Hi... I'm Cathy (or Debbie, or whatever
    name +/- half my female students had back then)... remember me??" I
    must confess I probably won't unless they give me a few more clues.
    As a teacher & as a parent I also understand that the school has to
    use a person's legal name on all official records, and there is a
    lot of paperwork involved in establishing that everybody is who
    they say they are. If Molly's legal name is Molly Moon the school
    has no authority to change it without documentation which her new
    parents can't supply unless they've formally adopted her. But I
    gather Molly is new to this school & hasn't voiced her concerns to
    the staff.

    That girl had authority - she could hypnotize all the world ;-). In that example "name" was used as a full name. Although, the author could easily use "surname" etc.

    Depending on the age of your unknown boy, I would be inclined to
    say "family name" or "surname" rather than "second name".

    What about "last name"? Is it better than "second name"?

    Around these parts it is more common than not for people to have
    two or more given names... and I'm told they may not appear in the
    order we're used to, relative to the family name, if the individual
    in question has just arrived from China or SomePlace Else & does
    not as yet know how to translate their given name into something
    which those of us who don't speak their lingo will remember &/or
    think we understand. There's another possible complication too, if
    the teacher doesn't know a boy's previous history. I can't say for
    sure whether you'd automatically identify yourself as "Koryagin"
    nowadays, if you'd spent the last umpteen years in a British
    private school, because I don't move in those circles. But I see
    plenty of evidence in the works of various authors that the
    tradition lasted for a long time....

    Let's take, for the instance, an excerpt from my old translation -- we see a boyscout council with a strict head teacher sitting at the head of the table.

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    ....
    There was no time to hesitate. Slavka quickly stood up.
    "I am against!"
    Of course everybody turned around, and Elisaveta Dmitrievna said discontentedly:
    "It seems to me that you aren't a council member, and, as far as I know, you are a newcomer!"
    "You are not a council member either," said Slavka calmly.
    "Ah, what an impudence! What's your last name?"
    "I am Semibratov," said Slavka
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    So, could she ask him "what's your name?"

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: ** nntps://fidonews.mine.nu ** Finland ** (2:221/6.0)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to All on Thu Apr 15 11:03:24 2021
    Hi, All!

    The Gun Seller, by Hugh Laurie

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    His name was Rayner. First name unknown. By me, at
    any rate, and therefore, presumably, by you too.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    It seems I forgot it -- when I am asked "what's your name" -- am I asked
    about my second name? Or you have some variants? ;)

    Bye, All!
    Alexander Koryagin

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
    * Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to alexander koryagin on Tue Apr 20 18:29:22 2021
    Alexander Koryagin:

    It seems I forgot it -- 384at's your name" -- am I asked
    about my second name? Or you have some variants? ;)

    It may be your first, last, or full name. Remember the self-
    introduciton of the famous fictional detective Lew Archer:
    "The name is Archer."

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Wed Apr 21 23:52:19 2021
    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Wed Apr 21 23:58:36 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    His name was Rayner. First name unknown. By me,
    at any rate, and therefore, presumably, by you too.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    It seems I forgot it -- when I am asked "what's
    your name" -- am I asked about my second name?
    Or you have some variants? ;)


    A lot depends on the circumstances. At informal gatherings I might say "Alexander, I'd like you to meet my friend Bruce". The use of first names often implies familiarity & social equality, however... so things may be a bit different where kids are involved. If I were introducing you to a grade eight class you'd be "Mr. Koryagin" to them and "Alexander" in the staff room. OTOH you may also, as an adult friend of the family, be called "Uncle Alex(ander)".

    Years ago... when I worked as a waitress... I was known by my first name & entered by the back door while as a teacher I was known as "Miss XXX" & entered by the front door, although for some time the two jobs overlapped. It was axiomatic back then that, as a customer, you'd be "Sir" or "Mr. Koryagin". It didn't strike me as unusual when Dallas & I were in our twenties that a few shop assistants in our neighbourhood were known to us as Mr. So-and-So because they were much older. We'd both seen how conservative our grandparents & even our parents were WRT first names. But nowadays things are generally much more informal, and we may encounter a lot of people whose surnames we don't know.

    Sometimes that works, sometimes not. Children & foreigners usually get my first name right because they're open to experience & don't try to make it conform to what they think they already know. When the receptionist at the dentist's office e.g. asks for my name I say "Mrs. Hinton" because it's easier to spell. She may think it's stuffy, old-fashioned, and/or elitist... but she gets it right. OTOH, you might find it more efficient to say "Alexander" when you're waiting your turn & you're not likely to be confused with someone else.

    If you were employed in a military or quasi-military job, you would probably wear a badge saying "Koryagin". If you're reading about a fictitious character who attended a British private school during the last century or so, you might see him introducing himself as e.g. "Bond... James Bond". In such a situation the use of both names adds credibility, I reckon, just as it does in Fidonet where there are potentially larger numbers of people involved. But if we're making a reservation at a local eatery there may be two or three Hintons involved & the newbies at the front desk don't need to know all the details... in which case the first to arrive will use only the surname. Other members of staff who know us well are not discouraged from using our first names.

    YMMV, of course. I've never been to Russia... but I have noticed a difference in levels of formality between the UK & the US. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Apr 23 14:16:44 2021
    Hi, Ardith Hinton! ->Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 21.04.2021 23:58

    A lot depends on the circumstances. At informal
    gatherings I might say "Alexander, I'd like you to meet my
    friend Bruce". The use of first names often implies
    familiarity & social equality, however... so things may be a bit
    different where kids are involved. If I were introducing you to a
    grade eight class you'd be "Mr. Koryagin" to them and "Alexander" in
    the staff room. OTOH you may also, as an adult friend of the family,
    be called "Uncle Alex(ander)".

    So, if you are a headmaster in school, and you want to find out who is that naughty boy throwing rocks, you will ask him, "Why you are not at a lesson? What's your second name?"

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Apr 24 00:50:14 2021
    Alexander Koragin:

    So, if you are a headmaster in school, and you want to
    find out who is that naughty boy throwing rocks, you
    will ask him, "Why you are not at a lesson?

    Why *are* you not *in class*? (I think)

    What's your second name?"

    "Tell me your name." should be enough.

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Apr 27 21:46:19 2021
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    So, if you are a headmaster in school,


    Usage note: as a female I might well be headmistress of a private school in this country but principal (gender neutral) of a public school. :-)



    and you want to find out who is that naughty boy
    throwing rocks, you will ask him, "Why you are
    not at a lesson?


    Assuming the incident occurred during class hours I'd probably say ... as Anton suggested... "Why are you not in class?



    What's your second name?"


    I'd start by saying "What's your name?" If he replied with only a given name I'd pursue the matter further, because in a large high school there could easily be dozens of kids who are known by the same first name. The term "second name" could be confusing, though, in English. Let's say we have a boy whose full legal name is on record in the office as

    John Jacob Jingleheimer-Schmidt

    ... meaning he has two given names & a double-barrelled surname. I think he'd probably be called "John Schmidt" at school. But some people use their middle name, i.e. the second of two given names, in preference to their first. If we say "first name" they may or may not take that to mean the first name they are usually called by. In general I avoid terms like first name, second name, and full name because I can't be sure how others will interpret them.

    Now, what to do instead? If Mr. & Mrs. Jones & their 2.3 children use the surname "Jones" you can refer to it as a family name... but things are often more complex these days. A woman may prefer to use her maiden name, for any number of reasons, and/or she may remarry. IOW a parent's surname may not be the same as that of the individual who's throwing rocks or whatever. I say "surname" because it covers a lot of territory including historical characters like Harold Bluetooth who may not have had family names as we know them. :-))

    If "surname" is beyond the limits of the other person's vocabulary you could try "last name", but this might not work with e.g. recent immigrants from parts of Southeast Asia where the family name comes first. "John what??" works in many cases although it sounds unbecoming of a principal... [chuckle].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Apr 29 11:03:26 2021
    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 27.04.2021 21:46

    So, if you are a headmaster in school,
    Usage note: as a female I might well be headmistress of a private
    school in this country but principal (gender neutral) of a public
    school.

    Although, I spoke in general, not about you. And don't you find that "principal" is a more formal word? "Principal came to the boy and asked..." or "Headmaster/mistress came to the boy..."

    and you want to find out who is that naughty boy throwing rocks,
    you will ask him, "Why you are not at a lesson?

    Assuming the incident occurred during class hours I'd probably
    say.. as Anton suggested... "Why are you not in class?

    But in informal speech I often hear questions asked as an affirmative sentence with questionable intonation?

    What's your second name?"

    I'd start by saying "What's your name?" If he replied with only a
    given name I'd pursue the matter further, because in a large high
    school there could easily be dozens of kids who are known by the
    same first name. The term "second name" could be confusing, though,
    in English. Let's say we have a boy whose full legal name is on
    record in the office as

    John Jacob Jingleheimer-Schmidt

    Poor boy, but, nevertheless, there is no other way to establish boy's identity (to call his parents to Principal). ;)

    <skipped>
    Now, what to do instead? If Mr. & Mrs. Jones & their 2.3 children
    use the surname "Jones" you can refer to it as a family name... but
    things are often more complex these days. A woman may prefer to use
    her maiden name, for any number of reasons, and/or she may remarry.
    IOW a parent's surname may not be the same as that of the
    individual who's throwing rocks or whatever. I say "surname"
    because it covers a lot of territory including historical
    characters like Harold Bluetooth who may not have had family names
    as we know them. :-))

    But any child is written in the school register with a certain surname. And probably he must know his surname.

    If "surname" is beyond the limits of the other person's vocabulary
    you could try "last name", but this might not work with e.g. recent immigrants from parts of Southeast Asia where the family name comes
    first. "John what??" works in many cases although it sounds
    unbecoming of a principal... [chuckle].

    I think it is better to use "surname" in that circumstance. But it's too late to correct my translation. ;)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2021

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    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)