• Pronunciation

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to All on Fri Aug 24 09:57:16 2018
    Hi, all!

    The verb "to wander",
    The pronunciation approximately, using the Latin symbols, is [vonde]

    For example, "They wandered along the street".

    How do you pronounce "wandered"?

    1. [vonded]
    2. [vonderid]

    I have nobody around to ask. ;-)

    Bye, all!
    Alexander Koryagin

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Aug 24 18:15:26 2018
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 08/24/2018 04:57 PM, you wroteto All:

    The verb "to wander",
    The pronunciation approximately, using the Latin symbols, is [vonde]
    For example, "They wandered along the street".

    How do you pronounce "wandered"?

    1. [vonded]
    2. [vonderid]

    I have nobody around to ask. ;-)

    Number 1 is an Australian pronunciation (little or no "r" sound). #2 is Shakespearean (not exactly), with an emphasis on a long "i".

    Modern English is like #2 with a short "i". More like a second "e" (i.e. the way its spelled). You may need a third choice. ;)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Paranoid: Someone who just figured out what's going on. (3:640/1384.125)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Aug 24 18:54:54 2018
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 24 Aug 18 18:15, I wrote to you:

    (i.e. the way its spelled). You may need a third choice. ;)

    And I need a thump to the back of head for the mispelled "it's". :-P

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... 'Beloe Zlato' (White Gold) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8slArpj_XU --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Aug 24 20:49:32 2018
    Hi Alexander -- on Aug 24 2018 at 09:57, you wrote:

    The verb "to wander",
    The pronunciation approximately, using the Latin symbols, is [vonde]

    For example, "They wandered along the street".

    How do you pronounce "wandered"?

    1. [vonded]
    2. [vonderid]

    Neither - in English, we prounounce the W.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Sat Aug 25 20:49:42 2018
    Hi, Dallas Hinton!
    I read your message from 24.08.2018 20:49

    The verb "to wander", The pronunciation approximately, using the
    Latin symbols, is [vonde]

    For example, "They wandered along the street".

    How do you pronounce "wandered"?

    1. [vonded] 2. [vonderid]

    Neither - in English, we prounounce the W.

    Yes, I should have used it.

    BTW - there are a lot of dictionaries in the Internet with audio pronunciation.
    IMHO, it would be nice if some of the dictionaries could pronounce all the word
    forms.

    Bye, Dallas!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2018

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Paul Quinn on Sat Aug 25 20:58:24 2018
    Hi, Paul Quinn!
    I read your message from 24.08.2018 11:54

    (i.e. the way its spelled). You may need a third choice.
    And I need a thump to the back of head for the mispelled "it's".

    Although, from the logical point of view, we have the right to write "its" instead of "it's" -- after all we recognize them correctly in vocal speech. So why should they be different in writing? ;-)

    Bye, Paul!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2018

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Aug 25 11:43:57 2018
    Hi Alexander -- on Aug 25 2018 at 20:49, you wrote:

    BTW - there are a lot of dictionaries in the Internet with audio pronunciation. IMHO, it would be nice if some of the dictionaries
    could pronounce all the word forms.

    It would indeed - but then there are so many regional variations.... :-)

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Sep 12 23:59:41 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Dallas Hinton:

    BTW - there are a lot of dictionaries in the Internet
    with audio pronunciation. IMHO, it would be nice if
    some of the dictionaries could pronounce all the word
    forms.


    Whether or not they make audio available, very few dictionaries seem
    to go into detail about such things. Fortunately or unfortunately... depending
    on one's POV... I find this type of question intriguing. ;-)



    Apart from /w/, your example "wandered" brings up two issues:


    1) how to pronounce "r" as a medial or final consonant,

    and

    2) how to pronounce "-ed" as a suffix.


    I'd say #1 is highly subject to regional variation. As a Canadian I
    enunciate an "r" wherever I see one in print, but to my ears at least the sound
    is middle-of-the-road and the same applies WRT the northwestern US. I once had
    a neighbour who (although he was quite convinced he'd lost his Scottish accent)
    pronounced my name as if I spelled it "Air-r-rdith". OTOH folks from Someplace
    Else may often appear to minimize an "r" or ignore it completely. What puzzles
    me is how some ex-Brits I know... especially Londoners... add /r/ to the end of
    words where I don't see one, in much the same way USAians say "a couple people"
    as if they're saving the "of" to use in expressions like "a myriad of" and "off
    of". There are native speakers of English wherever the British Empire extended
    at one time, and folks from Hither & Yon have preferences of their own.... :-)


    While #2 is less subject to regional variation it appears to me that
    there are variations based on which consonant sounds native speakers can handle
    without inserting a vowel when these sounds are lumped together at the end of a
    word. Most people simply add a final /d/ in words like the following:

    cleaned, combed, fixed, forked, guessed, longed, managed,
    muttered, pitied, played, wandered, wondered, yearned.

    All of the examples I've been able to come up with so far in which we routinely
    treat "-ed" as an added syllable involve words ending in "t" or "d":

    counted, courted, painted, mended, sounded, wounded.


    # # #


    In general we use "-ed" to indicate the past participle of a regular verb. The
    dictionary will spell out irregularities such as "write", "wrote", "written"...
    and that may be enough for the average reader. For the advanced students here,
    I'll add a few notes about exceptions which are not so easy to track down.

    * aged, blessed, beloved, learned, wicked

    When these words are used as adjectives "-ed" may (or may not) be treated as an
    added syllable in all of them except "wicked". WRT "wicked" the omission would
    alter the meaning... with the others it doesn't. FOWLER'S adds a syllable & so
    do I. But I've noticed recently that while the younger reporters on TV seem to
    have eagerly adopted the word "beloved" they don't make this distinction. They
    are not alone. In poetry & song the "-ed" is often written with a grave accent
    (\) over the "e" to indicate that the author wants us to use an added syllable.

    * blessed, leaned, learned, spelled

    When these words are used as past participles, you may occasionally see or hear
    "t" (esp. UK?) in place of the "-ed". Either way is correct in Canada.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Sep 14 10:41:52 2018
    Hi, Alexander!
    Recently you wrote in a message to Dallas Hinton:

    <skipped>
    Apart from /w/, your example "wandered" brings up two issues:

    1) how to pronounce "r" as a medial or final consonant,
    and
    2) how to pronounce "- ed" as a suffix.

    I'd say #1 is highly subject to regional variation. As a Canadian I enunciate an "r" wherever I see one in print, but to my ears at
    least the sound is middle-of-the-road and the same applies WRT the northwestern US. I once had a neighbour who (although he was quite convinced he'd lost his Scottish accent) pronounced my name as if I spelled it "Air-r-rdith". OTOH folks from Someplace Else may often
    appear to minimize an "r" or ignore it completely.

    What's who I was taught in school. "Car" - sounds like [ka:] In the USSR we were taught British English.

    What puzzles me
    is how some ex-Brits I know... especially Londoners... add /r/ to
    the end of words where I don't see one,

    For example?

    in much the same way USAians say "a couple people" as if they're
    saving the "of" to use in expressions like "a myriad of" and "off
    of". There are native speakers of English wherever the British
    Empire extended at one time, and folks from Hither & Yon have
    preferences of their own.... :-)

    While #2 is less subject to regional variation it appears to me
    that there are variations based on which consonant sounds native
    speakers can handle without inserting a vowel when these sounds are
    lumped together at the end of a word. Most people simply add a
    final /d/ in words like the following:

    cleaned, combed, fixed, forked, guessed, longed, managed,
    muttered, pitied, played, wandered, wondered, yearned.

    Ah, I see my word. :)

    All of the examples I've been able to come up with so far in which
    we routinely treat "- ed" as an added syllable involve words ending
    in "t" or "d":

    counted, courted, painted, mended, sounded, wounded.

    I vaguely recollect that I was taught such a thing in school, but I forgot it.

    <skipped>

    * blessed, leaned, learned, spelled

    When these words are used as past participles, you may occasionally
    see or hear "t" (esp. UK?) in place of the "- ed". Either way is
    correct in Canada.... :-)

    I have never heard that "to bless" is a irregular verb:

    http://tinyurl.com/ybf7axt3
    or https://www.learning-english-online.net/grammar/tenses-and-verb-forms/irregular-verbs/list-of-all-irregular-verbs/

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2018

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Sep 20 23:54:44 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I once had a neighbour who (although he was quite convinced
    he'd lost his Scottish accent) pronounced my name as if I
    spelled it "Air-r-rdith". OTOH folks from Someplace Else
    may often appear to minimize an "r" or ignore it completely.

    What's who I was taught in school. "Car" - sounds like [ka:]
    |that's how, that's what


    Yes, awhile ago I mentioned a pun which I remembered from a British magazine... khakis = car keys. It works in UK & ex-Brit Canadian English. It doesn't work in situations where "khaki" rhymes with "tacky", however.... :-)



    In the USSR we were taught British English.


    No problem AFAIC. Our daughter tends to soften /r/ because she has difficulty getting her tongue around it. Dallas & I are often asked where she got "that lovely British accent". As Canadians, we understand UK & US English equally well... and we accept both. But we also enjoy the freedom of deciding what works for us on an individual basis. Other Canadians may or may not make different choices. Either way, most of us will understand what you mean. :-)



    What puzzles me is how some ex-Brits I know...
    especially Londoners... add /r/ to the end of
    words where I don't see one,

    For example?


    As it happens Dallas & I were chatting with an ex-Londoner just the other day. Recognizing that somebody here might want examples, I made a point of noticing how she inserted an /r/ at the end of certain words. She told us, e.g., that she "sawr" something ending in a vowel to which she also added /r/. I'm not sure now what she saw because I didn't want to embarrass her by openly recording her exact words & her pronunciation, but I can offer an example from the days when my future parents-in-law adopted a dog they called "Cleater". I didn't realize, until I ran across a newspaper article involving a woman named "Cleta", how the name was spelled because it is a rather unusual name.... :-)



    Most people simply add a final /d/ in words like the
    following:

    cleaned, combed, fixed, forked, guessed, longed, managed,
    muttered, pitied, played, wandered, wondered, yearned.

    Ah, I see my word. :)


    Uh-huh. I'm not just another pretty face, y'know... [chuckle].



    All of the examples I've been able to come up with so
    far in which we routinely treat "- ed" as an added
    syllable involve words ending in "t" or "d":

    counted, courted, painted, mended, sounded, wounded.

    I vaguely recollect that I was taught such a thing in
    school, but I forgot it.


    While you learned English as a foreign language native speakers are often expected to understand this stuff intuitively. For various reasons many people may not have received such input during a time in their lives when they were ready, willing, and able to appreciate it. I love it when folks like you question my own assumptions & send me scurrying to my reference books.... :-)



    * blessed, leaned, learned, spelled

    When these words are used as past participles, you may
    occasionally see or hear "t" (esp. UK?) in place of the
    "- ed". Either way is correct in Canada.... :-)

    I have never heard that "to bless" is a irregular verb:


    I don't think of it as such... but I do know of situations in which the difference between /d/ & /t/ may not be entirely clear to the listener. I see what we're dealing with here as alternative spelling & pronunciation. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ARDITH HINTON on Fri Sep 21 16:38:00 2018
    Yes, awhile ago I mentioned a pun which I remembered from a British
    magazine... khakis = car keys. It works in UK & ex-Brit Canadian English. It >doesn't work in situations where "khaki" rhymes with "tacky", however.... :-)

    Might work in Boston also.

    Mike

    ---
    SLMR 2.1a Come in Number 51, Your Time Is Up!
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mike Powell on Sun Sep 23 18:54:36 2018
    Hi, Mike! Recently you wrote in a message to ARDITH HINTON:

    Yes, awhile ago I mentioned a pun which I remembered
    from a British magazine... khakis = car keys. It works
    in UK & ex-Brit Canadian English. It doesn't work in
    situations where "khaki" rhymes with "tacky", however
    .... :-)

    Might work in Boston also.


    Yes... and in various other places along the Atlantic seaboard, by my
    reckoning. While I've never been there myself Dallas spent some time in Boston
    years ago & noticed the suppressed /r/. The beauty of this pun IMHO is that it
    seems to work regardless of who pronounces "khaki" as if it had an /r/ in it or
    who pronounces "car" as if it hadn't. WRT New York State... see below.

    Another example which I find interesting, informative, and amusing is
    one I ran across when our daughter chose to read James Fenimore Cooper's series
    of novels about a character who is probably best known for his role in THE LAST
    OF THE MOHICANS. To make a long story short, if one persists in reading all of
    these novels one may catch a glimpse of certain pre-Webster American spellings.
    I noticed e.g. that the word "squaw" was spelled "squar" in a particular volume ... but not in more recent editions from different publishers. When I saw this
    I thought to myself "Oh, wow... he's using British phonics!" To test my theory
    I reported my observation to a friend who grew up east of London. She couldn't
    understand what I was so excited about because she'd spell it "squar" too. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Sep 24 10:59:16 2018
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 20.09.2018 23:54

    Yes, awhile ago I mentioned a pun which I remembered from a British magazine... khakis = car keys. It works in UK & ex-Brit Canadian
    English. It doesn't work in situations where "khaki" rhymes
    with "tacky", however.... :-)

    In English there are lots of similar sounding words and word combinations. I suspect that a person should point his finger at, before saying "gimme your knaki" ;=) Although, after a couple of times he will be probably understood even without his finger. ;) Practice is the main tool in learning.

    In the USSR we were taught British English.

    No problem AFAIC. Our daughter tends to soften /r/ because she has difficulty getting her tongue around it. Dallas & I are often asked

    "Dallas & I" == "Dallas & me"?

    where she got "that lovely British accent". As Canadians, we
    understand UK & US English equally well... and we accept both. But
    we also enjoy the freedom of deciding what works for us on an
    individual basis. Other Canadians may or may not make different
    choices. Either way, most of us will understand what you mean. :-)

    Another story maybe is with the French speaking Canadians. I know that when a French says "heating system" he says "eating system". ;-)

    <skipped>
    I vaguely recollect that I was taught such a thing in school, but
    I forgot it.

    While you learned English as a foreign language native speakers are
    often expected to understand this stuff intuitively. For various
    reasons many people may not have received such input during a time
    in their lives when they were ready, willing, and able to
    appreciate it. I love it when folks like you question my own
    assumptions & send me scurrying to my reference books.... :-)

    Well, talking is a process when at least two person speak. ;-)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2018

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)
  • From Mark Lewis@1:3634/12 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Sep 24 02:05:13 2018
    Re: Pronunciation
    By: Ardith Hinton to Mike Powell on Sun Sep 23 2018 18:54:36

    Yes, awhile ago I mentioned a pun which I remembered
    from a British magazine... khakis = car keys. It works
    in UK & ex-Brit Canadian English. It doesn't work in
    situations where "khaki" rhymes with "tacky", however
    .... :-)

    this reminds me that "pierced ears" in bostonian is "psds" O:)

    )\/(ark
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    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Mark Lewis@1:3634/12 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Sep 24 14:13:52 2018
    Re: Pronunciation
    By: Alexander Koryagin to Ardith Hinton on Mon Sep 24 2018 10:59:16

    Dallas & I are often asked

    "Dallas & I" == "Dallas & me"?

    the rule is something like this...

    I did something. me can't do anything.

    she went to the store with I <- wrong
    she went to the store with me <- correct

    me was asked a question <- wrong
    i was asked a question <- correct

    he and me went hunting <- wrong
    he and i went hunting <- correct

    he shot i in the foot <- wrong
    he shot me in the foot <- correct

    i hope that helps...

    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ARDITH HINTON on Mon Sep 24 19:23:00 2018
    Another example which I find interesting, informative, and amusing
    is
    one I ran across when our daughter chose to read James Fenimore Cooper's series
    of novels about a character who is probably best known for his role in THE LAST
    OF THE MOHICANS. To make a long story short, if one persists in reading all of
    these novels one may catch a glimpse of certain pre-Webster American spellings.
    I noticed e.g. that the word "squaw" was spelled "squar" in a particular volume
    ... but not in more recent editions from different publishers. When I saw this
    I thought to myself "Oh, wow... he's using British phonics!" To test my theory
    I reported my observation to a friend who grew up east of London. She couldn't
    understand what I was so excited about because she'd spell it "squar" too. :-)

    LOL!

    ---
    SLMR 2.1a "Tryin' is the first step towards failure." - Homer
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Michael Dukelsky@2:5020/1042 to Mark Lewis on Tue Sep 25 18:10:56 2018
    Hello Mark,

    Monday September 24 2018, Mark Lewis wrote to Alexander Koryagin:

    the rule is something like this...
    I did something. me can't do anything.

    So is "I can't do anything" wrong?

    Michael

    ... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)
  • From Mark Lewis@1:3634/12 to Michael Dukelsky on Tue Sep 25 21:40:28 2018
    Re: Pronunciation
    By: Michael Dukelsky to Mark Lewis on Tue Sep 25 2018 18:10:56

    the rule is something like this...
    I did something. me can't do anything.

    So is "I can't do anything" wrong?

    no, it is proper...

    me can't do anything
    me did something

    are both wrong, though... i wish i could remember the real rules, though... i've got too much other stuff packed in my noggin, though... i just know when it doesn't sound proper and how it should sound ;)

    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Sep 26 23:46:17 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    In English there are lots of similar sounding words
    and word combinations.


    Yes, and for exactly that reason many jokes in English are puns. :-)



    I suspect that a person should point his finger at,
    before saying "gimme your knaki" ;=)


    In such direct encounters we rely heavily on gestures & body language
    at times, as you say. In written communication we may use different spellings.
    But it does help when people get to know one another too.... :-)



    Dallas & I are often asked

    "Dallas & I" == "Dallas & me"?


    Passive voice:

    I am often asked (something).
    He is often asked (something).
    We are often asked (something).


    Active voice:

    People often ask me (something).
    People often ask him (something).
    People often ask us (something).



    Another story maybe is with the French speaking
    Canadians. I know that when a French says "heating
    system" he says "eating system". ;-)


    In English we have a few limited choices WRT the initial /h/. We can
    say "a historic event" or "an historic event"... and the enunciation of the /h/
    in "herb" is optional. At a quick glance through my French/English dictionary,
    which says it includes Canadian usage, I found several pages of words beginning
    with the letter "h"... but it seems "h" is what Anglophones would refer to as a
    "silent letter" in French. A person whose native language is French may forget
    to say it aloud in English or have difficulty learning to pronounce it.... :-)



    Well, talking is a process when at least two person
    speak. ;-)


    Unless, of course, a person is thinking aloud & doesn't expect anyone
    else to answer. When I do this I often say I'm talking to myself. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Michael Dukelsky on Fri Sep 28 11:56:53 2018
    Hi, Michael! Recently you wrote in a message to Mark Lewis:

    the rule is something like this...
    I did something. me can't do anything.

    So is "I can't do anything" wrong?


    Grammatically it's quite correct. I might disagree if I thought you
    were underestimating your abilities, however.... :-)

    What I hear Mark saying is that the word "me" indicates the receiver
    of an action, not the person who caused the action.


    Subject (nominative case in Latin, German, and ???)

    I, we
    thou or you, you
    he, she, it, they


    Direct object, indirect object, object of a preposition

    me, us
    thee or you, you
    him, her, them


    Because Anton & I enjoy playing with archaic language you may notice
    exceptions from time to time. I often say "methinks", e.g., but very few other
    people do that nowadays. Similarly, I have listed the singular "thou" & "thee"
    for the sake of completeness. But I must warn you that while both are still in
    occasional use not everybody who uses them in fun understands the grammar. ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Oct 1 14:02:08 2018
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 28.09.2018 11:56

    Because Anton & I enjoy playing with archaic language you may
    notice exceptions from time to time. I often say "methinks", e.g.,
    but very few other people do that nowadays.

    There are some other phrases, should they in use?

    "It's me!" instead of "It's I"
    "Me too!" instead of "I too"?
    "You and me?" instead of "you and I"?

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2018

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Fri Oct 5 00:28:15 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Because Anton & I enjoy playing with archaic language
    you may notice exceptions from time to time. I often
    say "methinks", e.g., but very few other people do
    that nowadays.

    There are some other phrases, should they in use?
    |should they be in use?



    "It's me!" instead of "It's I"


    In theory, if you're merely identifying yourself to the person(s) on
    the other side of the door or whatever you should say "it is I"... in practice,
    North Americans tend to prefer "it's me" when they're speaking informally.

    Rule of thumb: Anyone who knows you well enough to recognize you by
    the sound of your voice probably won't object if you say "it's me". :-)



    "Me too!" instead of "I too"?


    I've also participated in conversations along these lines:

    A. I hate it when we're sweltering under a heat inversion & the chatty young
    jocks on the TV news rhapsodize about the "perfect" weather we're having,
    even though asthmatics & elderly folks have been advised to stay indoors.

    B. Me too.


    Rule of thumb: When people are sharing their feelings, they need to
    know others will be able to understand the situation from their POV... and if A
    seems very upset B might do well to keep his/her replies brief so that A can go
    on with a minimum of interruption. Miss Stickler's lessons notwithstanding I'd
    be inclined to say "me too" there. Alternatives include "I do too", "so do I",
    and "I feel much the same way"... but under the circumstances I doubt A will be
    focusing on whether or not every utterance B offers in response has a subject &
    predicate or how things work in Latin, and "me too" contains fewer words. :-))



    "You and me?" instead of "you and I"?


    Depends on the context. Years ago I knew an older man who carefully
    said "just between you and I", perhaps because someone corrected his grammar at
    the dinner table when he wasn't old enough to follow the logic.... :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Oct 8 06:06:56 2018
    On 2018 Sep 28 11:56:52, you wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

    What I hear Mark saying is that the word "me" indicates the receiver
    of an action, not the person who caused the action.

    yes... maybe my response would have been better written as

    "I" did something. "me" can't do anything.

    i dunno... my mother used to get me with that saying when i'd use the wrong form... then i learned to flip them around or shorten them and see if they made
    sense... for example:

    he went to the store with she and i.

    flip/short

    he went to the store with i. <- wrong
    he went to the store with me. <- correct

    so the original above should have been

    he went to the store with she and me.

    but that's still not right... so another flip/short...

    he went to the store with she. <- wrong
    he went to the store with her. <- correct

    so now we have the proper form which would be

    he went to the store with her and me.

    or have i really frakled that up being sans c0ffee and having only ~5 hours of sleep?

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Less advice and more hands. -German Proverb
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to mark lewis on Wed Oct 10 15:32:25 2018
    Hi, Mark! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    What I hear Mark saying is that the word "me" indicates
    the receiver of an action, not the person who caused the
    action.

    yes... maybe my response would have been better written as

    "I" did something. "me" can't do anything.


    I agree that quotation marks help to clarify the meaning when you're reproducing in writing what your mother said aloud. Folks who haven't met her in person can only imagine the subtleties in pitch, timing, and emphasis which she would have used... but the punctuation gives the reader a "heads-up". :-)



    i dunno... my mother used to get me with that saying when
    i'd use the wrong form...


    I had never heard it before. But I reckon it was an age-appropriate explanation, for you at least, because you got the picture eventually.... ;-)



    then i learned to flip them around or shorten them and see
    if they made sense...


    I did the same myself, and often recommended it to my students.



    so now we have the proper form which would be

    he went to the store with her and me.

    or have i really frakled that up being sans c0ffee and
    having only ~5 hours of sleep?


    No, you're quite right. Whether or not you knew the terminology you saw a pattern... and you recognized "her" & "me" as objects of the preposition "with". I've had students over the years, though, who seemed to be hung up on what an adult said when they were +/- eight years old. They would insist e.g. that words used to name abstract ideas can't be nouns because Miss Grinch said nothing about them, or that moss grows only on the north side of trees because their Daddy said so. And I see how the older guy I mentioned earlier may have "overcorrected" in response to an exchange like this:

    Johnny: Him and me went to the store, and...
    Parent: No, Johnny, you should say "he and I".

    I could tell him until I'm blue in the face that "between" is a preposition in this context, locate it in the nearest dictionary, and add further examples... but as Sherlock Holmes said, emotion tends to interfere with logic. No matter what his chronological age I see a child who's terrified that the grownups who are important to him will disapprove if he says "him" &/or "me" again.... :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)