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  • "a" or "the"

    From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to All on Thu Jun 7 22:42:48 2018
    Hello, all

    Recently I had to translate into English this notice:

    You are allowed to use this system if you are a citizen
    of the Russian Federation and the holder of an
    e-passport.

    I then realised I cannot rationalise my choice of articles:
    why "a citizen" but "the holder"? Perhaps because a country
    has many citizens but a passport always a single holder?

    But then, a note in the British passport says:

    This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's
    Government in the United Kingdom.

    Why "the property"? I am sure a passport does not
    constitute the property of the Government.

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Jun 8 08:58:04 2018
    Hi! Anton,

    You may get other replies that will give you some technical assistance whereas I would like to leave you with my just my unskilled thoughts on your questions.

    On 06/08/2018 05:42 AM, you wrote:

    I then realised I cannot rationalise my choice of articles:
    why "a citizen" but "the holder"? Perhaps because a country
    has many citizens but a passport always a single holder?

    Bad rhythm. Either would be fine. However, like a child at the keyboard of a piano continually thumping just a single key. Klang, klang, klang... ad infinitum. It's exceedingly boring. In your text, the choice of a "the" breaks the boredom of the potential use of another "a". Either would probably work but why repeat its use?

    But then, a note in the British passport says:

    This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's
    Government in the United Kingdom.

    Why "the property"? I am sure a passport does not
    constitute the property of the Government.

    An "a" would not be correct. Yes, it will be one of a very many properties owned by a government but this statement is being very specific about a singular object.

    OTOH, that declaration brings to mind the possibility of thinking that if the holder is indeed visiting another country, then the passport is no longer the property of the Government. It could be said then that it's only its property while _in_ the United Kingdom. 8-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Funditus tortus sum! Fucatissimum! (3:640/384.125)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Jun 8 21:25:25 2018
    Hi, Anton Shepelev!
    I read your message from 07.06.2018 22:42
    about "a" or "the".

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    You are allowed to use this system if you are a citizen
    of the Russian Federation and the holder of an e-passport.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    IMHO "a citizen" is because we have many citizens in Russia.

    But, BTW, "an e-passport" is another name for a biometric passport: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport
    And, therefore, an e-passport has only one holder (or the holder).

    I then realised I cannot rationalise my choice of articles: why "a citizen" but "the holder"? Perhaps because a country has many citizens but a passport always a single holder?

    But then, a note in the British passport says:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's
    Government in the United Kingdom.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Why "the property"? I am sure a passport does not constitute the property of the Government.

    I think such a document is not a personal property. A state issues it to its people. Then who is it belongs to? Naturally to the state, or, Her Majesty's Government, in your sentence.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to alexander koryagin on Fri Jun 8 15:15:32 2018
    alexander koryagin to Anton Shepelev:

    But then, a note in the British passport says:

    This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's
    Government in the United Kingdom.

    Why "the property"? I am sure a passport does not
    constitute the property of the Government.

    I think such a document is not a personal property. A
    state issues it to its people. Then who is it belongs
    to?

    Whom?

    Naturally to the state, or, Her Majesty's Government, in
    your sentence.

    Then why not omit the article:

    This passport remains property of Her Majesty's
    Government in the United Kingdom.

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Anton Shepelev on Sat Jun 9 16:46:51 2018
    Hi, Anton Shepelev!
    I read your message from 08.06.2018 15:15
    about "a" or "the".

    I think such a document is not a personal property. A
    state issues it to its people. Then who is it belongs
    to?

    Whom?

    Naturally to the state, or, Her Majesty's Government, in
    your sentence.

    Then why not omit the article:

    This passport remains property of Her Majesty's
    Government in the United Kingdom.

    There are "determiners". If we denote "to whom it belongs" we should use it. "Her Majesty's Government" can work as a determiner, and after it we don't use "the" article:

    This passport remains Her Majesty's Government property in the United Kingdom.


    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Paul Quinn on Wed Jun 13 20:34:50 2018
    Paul Quinn to Anton Shepelev:

    Recently I had to translate into English this notice:

    You are allowed to use this system if you are a
    citizen of the Russian Federation and the holder of
    an e-passport.

    I then realised I cannot rationalise my choice of
    articles: why "a citizen" but "the holder"? Perhaps
    because a country has many citizens but a passport
    always a single holder?

    Bad rhythm. Either would be fine. However, like a
    child at the keyboard of a piano continually thumping
    just a single key. Klang, klang, klang... ad infinitum.
    It's exceedingly boring. In your text, the choice of a
    "the" breaks the boredom of the potential use of another
    "a". Either would probably work but why repeat its use?

    I think that grammar should take priority over euphony, and
    I asked my question from the viewpoint of the former. As to
    the rhythm, repetition is not always bad, and in this case I
    find it quite harmless to my ear. Elegant variation,
    however, is evil:

    http://www.bartleby.com/116/302.html

    Is "a holder of an e-passport" even correct, assuming that
    each passport has only one holder?

    But then, a note in the British passport says:

    This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's
    Government in the United Kingdom.

    Why "the property"? I am sure a passport does not
    constitute the property of the Government.

    An "a" would not be correct. Yes, it will be one of a
    very many properties owned by a government but this
    statement is being very specific about a singular
    object.

    Agreed, but the alternative I had in mind was zero article,
    e.g.:

    This passport remains property of Her Majesty's Government
    in the United Kingdom.

    OTOH, that declaration brings to mind the possibility of
    thinking that if the holder is indeed visiting another
    country, then the passport is no longer the property of
    the Government. It could be said then that it's only
    its property while _in_ the United Kingdom. 8-)

    Indeed, but I think "in the United Kingdom" modifies
    "government" rather than "remains".

    ---
    * Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)