• to be or not to be that is the question

    From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to All on Sat Mar 17 02:24:22 2018
    Hi, All


    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida International University had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened, Mr. Rubio, a Republican, said in a late Thursday tweet. "They were being tightened when it collapsed," he said.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/miami-pedestrian-bridge-was-being-adjusted-when-it-collapsed-1521208571
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    I would write it with "to":
    ....it had ordered Thursday that the cables _to_ be tightened.

    Is there any difference?


    Bye, All
    Alexander Koryagin

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to alexander koryagin on Fri Mar 16 23:18:26 2018
    Hi alexander -- on Mar 17 2018 at 02:24, you wrote:

    University had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened, Mr.

    I would write it with "to":
    ....it had ordered Thursday that the cables _to_ be tightened.

    Is there any difference?

    I'm afraid you simply can't say that!! You could say "cables should be" or "cables will be" or even "cables are to be", but not "cables to be tightened" -- there's no verb in your version.



    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Dallas Hinton on Sat Mar 17 19:55:36 2018
    Hi, Dallas Hinton!
    I read your message from 16.03.2018 16:18

    University had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened, Mr.

    I would write it with "to":.... it had ordered Thursday that the
    cables _to_ be tightened.

    Is there any difference?

    I'm afraid you simply can't say that!! You could say "cables should
    be" or "cables will be" or even "cables are to be", but not "cables
    to be tightened" -- there's no verb in your version.

    No any verb? Let's see this example:

    "The manager ordered the cargo _to_ be insured."

    Bye, Dallas!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ALEXANDER KORYAGIN on Fri Mar 16 18:59:00 2018
    I would write it with "to":
    ....it had ordered Thursday that the cables _to_ be tightened.
    Is there any difference?

    Again, I don't know what the rule is, but here are two ways I could think
    of writing that:

    "... it had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened..."
    "... it had ordered Thursday for the cables to be tightened..."

    I believe that "be" is correct when using "that," while "to be" would be correct when using "for."

    I could also be very wrong. :)

    Mike

    ---
    SLMR 2.1a Her voice rings in his ears like the music of the spheres
    * Origin: CCO BBS - capitolcityonline.net:26 (1:2320/105)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to alexander koryagin on Sat Mar 17 18:28:11 2018
    Hi alexander -- on Mar 17 2018 at 19:55, you wrote:

    No any verb? Let's see this example:

    "The manager ordered the cargo _to_ be insured."

    Definitely - the verb is "to be" -- at least, as I see it! :-)

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mike Powell on Sat Mar 17 18:28:52 2018
    Hi Mike -- on Mar 16 2018 at 18:59, you wrote:


    Again, I don't know what the rule is, but here are two ways I could
    think of writing that:

    "... it had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened..." "...
    it had ordered Thursday for the cables to be tightened..."

    I believe that "be" is correct when using "that," while "to be"
    would be correct when using "for."

    I don't like the "for the cables" construction but I can't call it wrong, and certainly your first example is fine!


    I could also be very wrong. :)

    Me too!! Ardith is the finally arbiter here! :-)




    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Dallas Hinton on Sun Mar 18 12:18:33 2018
    Hi! Dallas,

    On 17 Mar 18 18:28, you wrote to alexander koryagin:

    No any verb? Let's see this example:

    "The manager ordered the cargo _to_ be insured."

    Definitely - the verb is "to be" -- at least, as I see it! :-)

    What is the word 'ordered'?

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... I'm not a pessimest, just an optimist with a lot of experience.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20110213
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Paul Quinn on Sun Mar 18 00:01:53 2018
    Hi Paul -- on Mar 18 2018 at 12:18, you wrote:


    What is the word 'ordered'?

    Someone gave an order to do something. S/he "ordered" that this job should be done.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Dallas Hinton on Sun Mar 18 17:59:02 2018
    Hi! Dallas,

    On 03/18/2018 12:01 AM, you wrote:

    What is the word 'ordered'?

    Someone gave an order to do something. S/he "ordered" that this job
    should be done.

    Is it so norty that it cannot ever be a verb?

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Dallas Hinton on Sun Mar 18 07:56:53 2018
    Hi, Dallas! Recently you wrote in a message to alexander koryagin:

    University had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened

    I would write it with "to":
    ....it had ordered Thursday that the cables _to_ be tightened.

    Is there any difference?

    I'm afraid you simply can't say that!!



    As a native speaker you wouldn't use both "that" and "to" in the same
    breath here... but you might omit "that", as in the words of a popular song:


    Tell Laura I love her.
    Tell Laura I may be late.


    IMHO "that" is omitted, at least in part, because we hear in another line:


    Tell Laura not to cry.



    You could say "cables should be" or "cables will be" or
    even "cables are to be", but not "cables to be tightened"
    -- there's no verb in your version.



    Yes, there is... grammatically "(to) be" is a verb, but it's referred
    to as a linking or copula verb when there's no apparent action:


    Spring is a season of the year.
    Spring is just around the corner.
    The sky is blue.


    and it's used as an auxiliary verb when there is some apparent action:


    The sun is shining.
    The little birds are singing beautiful songs.



    I think (simplifying the construction a bit here) Alexander is trying
    to understand why we use or don't use "to" in situations like:


    1) The teacher ordered that the class be silent.

    2) The teacher ordered the class to be silent.


    Either way "(to) order" is a transitive verb... i.e. it acts upon somebody &/or
    something. #1 follows the same pattern as "Tommy ordered a dozen red roses" if
    we interpret the subordinate clause "that the class be silent" as a grammatical
    equivalent to something. #2 follows the same pattern as "Gerard's boss expects
    him to complete this task immediately if not sooner". In the example Alexander
    cited we aren't told who did the hands-on bit or why it didn't work the way the
    engineers had expected it to. Perhaps the author didn't know or didn't want to
    blame anybody, in which case s/he had no choice but #1 in this context.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Mike Powell on Mon Mar 19 04:22:35 2018
    Hi, Mike Powell!
    I read your message from 17.03.2018 01:59

    "... it had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened..."
    "... it had ordered Thursday for the cables to be tightened..."

    I believe that "be" is correct when using "that," while "to be" would be correct when using "for."

    I could also be very wrong. :)

    If we don't use the Infinitive for making the future tense I also have a vague doubt that we have here a reported speech, and the original sentence should have been like this:

    ....it had ordered Thursday that the cables were tightened...

    (...Mr. Rubio, a Republican, said in a late Thursday tweet...)

    Bye, Mike!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Paul Quinn on Mon Mar 19 19:56:52 2018
    Hi Paul -- on Mar 18 2018 at 17:59, you wrote:

    Is it so norty that it cannot ever be a verb?

    I don't know the meaning of the word "norty", Paul - but I think you were actually asking what part of speech "ordered" is and I thought you meant what did the word mean!

    I didn't look at ordered at all, as we were dealing with "to be". Naming parts of speech has never been a strong point for me, so I'll let Ardith deal with that! :-)


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Dallas Hinton on Tue Mar 20 17:26:39 2018
    Hi! Dallas,

    On 03/19/2018 07:56 PM, you wrote:

    Is it so norty that it cannot ever be a verb?

    I don't know the meaning of the word "norty", Paul

    If your first language is English then you know quite well from the sound of the word. It was an attempt at levity without crudely employing an emoticon.

    I didn't look at ordered at all, as we were dealing with "to be".

    Yes, I saw that you did that. But then I felt sympathy with Alexander having, in my estimation, provided a perfectly well-formed sentence which you pounced upon... short-sightedly. YMMV.

    Naming parts of speech has never been a strong point for me, so I'll
    let Ardith deal with that! :-)

    As do I. Recall that I can provide written proof that I failed English in my last year of high school.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mike Powell on Tue Mar 20 22:53:00 2018
    Hi, Mike! Recently you wrote in a message to ALEXANDER KORYAGIN:

    Again, I don't know what the rule is,


    While you may regard that as a shortcoming, I'm very glad to hear it because I won't have to unteach a grade three rule which doesn't work in grade four. "I don't know" tells me you're open to further input... and chances are I'll be as busy as a beaver for the next while because I can't think of a rule either. For me, identifying patterns is more constructive & more fun.... :-)

    Rules may work better in a lot of other languages... at least on the surface... than they do in English, which is a mixture of languages. But I've had my share of experiences with stuff in Latin & French which seems logical & straightforward until the hapless student gets to question #4 out of 10. :-))



    "... it had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened..."


    No problem there, AFAIC.... :-)



    "... it had ordered Thursday for the cables to be tightened..."


    I wouldn't put it that way... but I can't fault the grammar although the wording isn't what I'm accustomed to. Stylistically I prefer the original because it's more concise. Hmm. Stay tuned for further developments.... ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Wed Mar 21 18:35:00 2018
    Hi, Ardith Hinton -> Mike Powell!
    I read your message from 20.03.2018 16:53
    about to be or not to be that i.


    "... it had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened..."


    No problem there, AFAIC.... :-)

    So, how about the reported speech? Maybe should be "were tighted" afterr all?

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida International University had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened, Mr. Rubio, a Republican, said in a late Thursday tweet. "They were being tightened when it collapsed," he said.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ARDITH HINTON on Wed Mar 21 18:21:00 2018
    "... it had ordered Thursday for the cables to be tightened..."
    I wouldn't put it that way... but I can't fault the grammar although
    the wording isn't what I'm accustomed to. Stylistically I prefer the original >because it's more concise. Hmm. Stay tuned for further developments.... ;-)

    I would normally word it the original way also. :)

    Mike

    ---
    SLMR 2.1a "Hired goons????" - Homer
    * Origin: CCO BBS - capitolcityonline.net:26 (1:2320/105)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Wed Mar 21 20:56:24 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    "... it had ordered Thursday that the cables be
    tightened..."

    No problem there, AFAIC.... :-)

    So, how about the reported speech? Maybe should
    be "were tighted" afterr all?


    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida
    International University had ordered Thursday that
    the cables be tightened, Mr. Rubio, a Republican,
    said in a late Thursday tweet. "They were being
    tightened when it collapsed," he said.
    ----- The end of the citation-----



    Ah... thankyou for the clarification. I wasn't sure what you meant in your reply to Mike, but the rewording helped.

    According to my CANADIAN OXFORD DICTIONARY "reported speech" = what would have been referred to as an indirect quotation when I was in school. It is somebody's account of what somebody else said, but the reporter is under no obligation to copy the words exactly & may alter verb tenses as s/he sees fit. In this context I think "that the cables be tightened" is correct, because the desired action had not yet been carried out at the time & the engineering firm probably issued instructions to a supervisor who delegated the task to others.

    "They were being tightened" is a direct quotation, or direct speech if that is what you prefer to call it. In such cases quotation marks are used to indicate that what Mr. Rubio allegedly said (e.g.) is... to the best of the reporter's ability... an honest attempt to duplicate exactly what he said. At the time the incident in question occurred, the action of tightening the bolts ... according to his account... was in progress but hadn't yet been completed. If you say "the cables were tightened" the meaning is IMHO somewhat ambiguous.

    From what I see here I'm quite content with the way Mr. Rubio & the reporter expressed themselves. The situation is complicated by the use of the passive voice... which my instructors would have advised their students not to use if there's a reasonable alternative. No doubt there will be lawsuits as a result of this incident & the courts will decide who is or is not at fault. I don't blame the reporter for not mentioning names here, but I count on readers like you & Anton to fill me in on the names of verb tenses in English.... ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Mar 22 17:20:43 2018
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 21.03.2018 14:56
    about to be or not to be that i.

    So, how about the reported speech? Maybe should be "were tighted"
    afterr all?

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida International University had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened, Mr.
    Rubio, a Republican, said in a late Thursday tweet. "They were
    being tightened when it collapsed," he said.
    ----- The end of the citation-----

    Ah... thankyou for the clarification. I wasn't sure what you meant
    in your reply to Mike, but the rewording helped.

    According to my CANADIAN OXFORD DICTIONARY "reported speech" = what
    would have been referred to as an indirect quotation when I was in
    school. It is somebody's account of what somebody else said, but
    the reporter is under no obligation to copy the words exactly & may
    alter verb tenses as s/he sees fit.

    You write "the reporter... may alter verb tenses as s/he sees fit. " Does it mean that he can alter the verb tenses "as he likes"? ;) I still thought that the tense switching is obligatory when we transfer the direct speech into the reported speech.

    In this context I think "that the cables be tightened" is correct,
    because the desired action had not yet been carried out at the time
    & the engineering firm probably issued instructions to a supervisor
    who delegated the task to others.

    In other words the tense switching is not obligatory?

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Mar 22 22:26:03 2018
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 21.03.2018 14:56
    about to be or not to be that i.

    Ah... thankyou for the clarification. I wasn't sure what you meant in your reply to Mike, but the rewording helped.

    Maybe you didn't understand what I meant speaking of using the Infinitive for making the Future time. It like in this title:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43489457

    "Theresa May to warn EU leaders of Russian threat to democracy"

    The infinite "to warn" can be replaced with "will warn".

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to alexander koryagin on Thu Mar 22 08:23:55 2018
    Hi alexander -- on Mar 22 2018 at 22:26, you wrote:


    "Theresa May to warn EU leaders of Russian threat to democracy"

    The infinite "to warn" can be replaced with "will warn".

    What you're seeig here is the regrettable result of having to squeeze too much information into a small space. This is an example of (usually) a headline that
    has had too much trimmed. It should have read something like "Theresa May is expected to warn..." or "is going to warn", or perhaps even "will warn" (as you
    suggested).

    Please don't use journalese and in particular headlines or article headings as exemplars of how to use English! :-)

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Sat Mar 24 23:56:17 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    ----- Beginning of the citation -----
    The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida
    International University had ordered Thursday that the
    cables be tightened, Mr. Rubio, a Republican, said in
    a late Thursday tweet. "They were being tightened when
    it collapsed," he said.
    ----- The end of the citation -----



    According to my CANADIAN OXFORD DICTIONARY "reported
    speech" = what would have been referred to as an indirect
    quotation when I was in school. It is somebody's account
    of what somebody else said, but the reporter is under no
    obligation to copy the words exactly & may alter verb
    tenses as s/he sees fit.

    You write "the reporter... may alter verb tenses as
    s/he sees fit." Does it mean that he can alter the
    verb tenses "as he likes"? ;)


    Within reason, we accept that the reporter may alter some verb tenses
    to make them fit together with other verb tenses in his or her report.

    Years ago, for example, I read a cartoon in which Mr. Dithers told an
    employee he was fired. His actual words were "Bumstead, you're fired!" I have
    not changed the meaning by using the past tense in my account of the situation.
    Those who are familiar with the cartoon I'm referring to, BTW, will realize Mr.
    Dithers often used the same words but evidently changed his mind later.... :-)



    the desired action had not yet been carried out at the
    time & the engineering firm probably issued instructions
    to a supervisor who delegated the task to others.

    In other words the tense switching is not obligatory?


    I think it's almost certain in a case like this, because the reporter
    is telling us about an event which occurred in the past & probably doesn't know
    the exact wording the engineering firm used. I would agree that it's common...
    but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's obligatory.

    Suppose I order some widgets from the XYZ Company, and I'm told "They
    should be at your door by 8:00 PM Friday." At 9:00 PM on Friday I might say to
    Dallas "The XYZ Company told me those widgets should be here by now." I see no
    need to change the verb tense there if the widgets have not yet arrived.

    Another example: I notice my friend Sheila sitting alone in a coffee
    shop & crying quietly. I sit next to her & say "Hi, Sheila... what's up?" She
    answers "I was expecting [my boyfriend] to meet me here tonight, but I think he
    must have forgotten." Later she finds out he hadn't forgotten but was involved
    in an accident while en route to the coffee shop. From that time onward Sheila
    or I might say she thought he'd forgotten until she had more information. What
    a person said in the past may or may not reflect accurately what they would say
    now. If Susie said "The moon is made of green cheese" awhile ago the situation
    is less clear & different people may use different tenses to report on it. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Sun Mar 25 21:55:12 2018
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 24.03.2018 16:56

    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    ----- Beginning of the citation -----
    The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida International
    University had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened, Mr.
    Rubio, a Republican, said in a late Thursday tweet. "They were
    being tightened when it collapsed," he said.
    ----- The end of the citation -----


    According to my CANADIAN OXFORD DICTIONARY "reported speech" =
    what would have been referred to as an indirect quotation when I
    was in school. It is somebody's account of what somebody else
    said, but the reporter is under no obligation to copy the words
    exactly & may alter verb tenses as s/he sees fit.

    You write "the reporter... may alter verb tenses as s/he sees
    fit." Does it mean that he can alter the verb tenses "as he
    likes"?


    Within reason, we accept that the reporter may alter some verb
    tenses to make them fit together with other verb tenses in his or
    her report.

    Years ago, for example, I read a cartoon in which Mr. Dithers told
    an employee he was fired. His actual words were "Bumstead, you're
    fired!" I have not changed the meaning by using the past tense in
    my account of the situation.

    Yes, you should do it when transferring direct speech into reported speech, and
    you really didn't change the meaning. You followed the rule.

    <skipped>

    In other words the tense switching is not obligatory?

    I think it's almost certain in a case like this, because the
    reporter is telling us about an event which occurred in the past & probably doesn't know the exact wording the engineering firm used.
    I would agree that it's common... but I wouldn't go so far as to
    say it's obligatory.

    Any reported speech can be transferred back into direct speech:

    -----
    Mr. Rubio said in a late Thursday tweet, "The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida International University ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened".
    ----

    Suppose I order some widgets from the XYZ Company, and I'm
    told "They should be at your door by 8:00 PM Friday." At 9:00 PM on
    Friday I might say to Dallas "The XYZ Company told me those widgets
    should be here by now." I see no need to change the verb tense
    there if the widgets have not yet arrived.

    When your words are in quotation marks it is direct speech, no changes are needed. In reported speech you remove quotation marks:

    At 9:00 on Friday I said ... that the XYZ Company _had told_ me those widgets should have been here by then.

    Another example: I notice my friend Sheila sitting alone in a
    coffee shop & crying quietly. I sit next to her & say "Hi,
    Sheila... what's up?"

    OK, direct speech

    She answers "I was expecting [my boyfriend]
    to meet me here tonight, but I think he must have forgotten."

    Quotation marks here - direct speech is detected again.

    Later she finds out he hadn't forgotten but was involved in an
    accident while en route to the coffee shop. From that time onward
    Sheila or I might say she thought he'd forgotten until she had more information. What a person said in the past may or may not reflect accurately what they would say now. If Susie said "The moon is made
    of green cheese" awhile ago the situation is less clear & different
    people may use different tenses to report on it.

    Take this for instance:

    Susie said "The moon is made of green cheese."
    but
    Susie said that the moon was made of green cheese.

    It is also correct, both sentences mean the same.


    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Tue Mar 27 10:25:30 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Ah... thankyou for the clarification. I wasn't sure what you meant in your reply to Mike, but the rewording helped.

    Maybe you didn't understand what I meant speaking of using the
    Infinitive for making the Future time.



    Hmm. I guess sometimes we do, as in:


    Blondie asked Dagwood to take out the trash.

    I'll remind Liam to phone you tomorrow.


    Mom insisted that Johnny clean up his bedroom.

    Cathy requested that her mother not put pickles in her sandwich.

    The engineering firm had ordered that the cables be tightened.


    BTW... when I use "that" I leave out "to". I could have left out "that" in the
    second set as well, but the rule or principle (whatever it may be) is the same.




    It like in this title:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43489457

    "Theresa May to warn EU leaders of Russian threat to democracy"


    Yes, I think it's important to keep in mind that this is essentially
    a newspaper headline. Such things are very highly condensed & their purpose is
    as much to make you want to read the accompanying article as to inform.... :-)




    The infinite "to warn" can be replaced with "will warn".


    I take it to mean she's planning to do [blah blah], but may feel she
    needs some time to choose her words carefully. Either way I'll sit back & wait
    for further developments. IMHO "will warn", although it does refer to a future
    event, is a bit strong unless we're 100% certain it's going to happen that way.
    And unlike newspaper reporters, she & I can take time to choose our words. :-)







    things to do list

    I need you to do this

    I want to get this job done before...

    Im planning to






    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Tue Mar 27 10:38:37 2018
    Hi again, Alexander! I goofed & my previous reply scanned out before I had quite finished saying my piece, but I think you'll understand.... [wry grin].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Sat Apr 14 23:40:56 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    ----- Beginning of the citation -----
    The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida
    International University had ordered Thursday that
    the cables be tightened, Mr. Rubio, a Republican,
    said in a late Thursday tweet. "They were being
    tightened when it collapsed," he said.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Any reported speech can be transferred back into direct
    speech:

    -----
    Mr. Rubio said in a late Thursday tweet, "The engineering
    firm building the bridge at Florida International
    University ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened".
    ----


    Theoretically I suppose you could do that, if indeed those were the
    exact words Mr. Rubio used. But somebody else's account of what Mr. Rubio said
    might be a condensation, a simplification, &/or a personal interpretation.



    Suppose I order some widgets from the XYZ Company, and
    I'm told "They should be at your door by 8:00 PM Friday."
    At 9:00 PM on Friday I might say to Dallas "The XYZ Company
    told me those widgets should be here by now." I see no need
    to change the verb tense there if the widgets have not yet
    arrived.

    When your words are in quotation marks it is direct speech,
    no changes are needed. In reported speech you remove quotation
    marks:

    At 9:00 on Friday I said ... that the XYZ Company _had told_ me
    those widgets should have been here by then.


    Uh-huh. Now you are telling the story in the past tense, whereas I
    used the present tense... so you must use "had told" WRT what was said earlier.
    I see you've grasped the idea I was trying to get across, and by using the word
    "that" as a subordinating conjunction you've left no doubt in anybody's mind as
    to whether I was reporting directly or indirectly on what the XYZ Company said.

    The subordinating conjunction "that" may be... and often is... left
    out, however, particularly in colloquial speech. As a Canadian I take pride in
    the crisp efficiency of the English language when I see e.g. a cereal box where
    it takes half again as much space to say the same thing in French. OTOH, I see
    how people can get a bit too carried away with brevity sometimes. If you don't
    include the conjunction, some readers may incorrectly assume that all they have
    to do is put quotation marks around what I allegedly said to duplicate it. :-)



    She answers "I was expecting [my boyfriend] to meet me
    here tonight, but I think he must have forgotten."

    Quotation marks here - direct speech is detected again.


    Uh-huh. The punctuation indicates what I'd do with my voice, in an
    oral conversation, to indicate that I'm reporting to the best of my ability the
    exact words she used. I'd drop the pitch & pause slightly after "she answers".
    Years ago, when the general pace of life was slower, I'd have put a comma after
    "she answers" as well. That is what both Dallas & I were taught to do.... :-)



    Susie said "The moon is made of green cheese."
    but
    Susie said that the moon was made of green cheese.

    It is also correct, both sentences mean the same.


    On the surface of it, the second option has the same meaning. Both
    verbs are in the past tense... that's how such things typically work & I reckon
    that's what most people would say. However, it could also be argued that while
    Susie's opinion may have changed since I last heard from her the composition of
    the moon probably hasn't. The language is flexible enough to allow you to say,
    e.g., that Susie said (that) the moon is made of green cheese... or that Ardith
    has told readers in the E_T echo (that) the city where she currently resides is
    located in the southwestern corner of Canada. There's where the rule of common
    sense takes precedence IMHO over the grammatical neatness of the textbook. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Apr 16 17:18:29 2018
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 14.04.2018 16:40
    about to be or not to be that i.

    ----- Beginning of the citation -----
    The engineering firm building the bridge at Florida International
    University had ordered Thursday that the cables be tightened, Mr.
    Rubio, a Republican, said in a late Thursday tweet. "They were
    being tightened when it collapsed," he said.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Any reported speech can be transferred back into direct speech:

    -----
    Mr. Rubio said in a late Thursday tweet, "The engineering firm
    building the bridge at Florida International University ordered
    Thursday that the cables be tightened".
    ----

    Theoretically I suppose you could do that, if indeed those were the
    exact words Mr. Rubio used. But somebody else's account of what Mr.
    Rubio said might be a condensation, a simplification, &/or a
    personal interpretation.

    Well, IMHO, if reported speech distorts idea, there is no guarantee that direct
    speech is correct either. It depends on the person who writes.

    Suppose I order some widgets from the XYZ Company, and I'm
    told "They should be at your door by 8:00 PM Friday." At 9:00 PM
    on Friday I might say to Dallas "The XYZ Company told me those
    widgets should be here by now." I see no need to change the verb
    tense there if the widgets have not yet arrived.

    When your words are in quotation marks it is direct speech, no
    changes are needed. In reported speech you remove quotation marks:

    At 9:00 on Friday I said... that the XYZ Company _had told_ me
    those widgets should have been here by then.


    Uh-huh. Now you are telling the story in the past tense, whereas I
    used the present tense... so you must use "had told" WRT what was
    said earlier. I see you've grasped the idea I was trying to get
    across, and by using the word "that" as a subordinating conjunction
    you've left no doubt in anybody's mind as to whether I was
    reporting directly or indirectly on what the XYZ Company said.

    If there is no quotation marks in your report it means it is 100% indirect speech.

    The subordinating conjunction "that" may be... and often is... left
    out, however, particularly in colloquial speech. As a Canadian I
    take pride in the crisp efficiency of the English language when I
    see e.g. a cereal box where it takes half again as much space to
    say the same thing in French. OTOH, I see how people can get a bit
    too carried away with brevity sometimes. If you don't include the conjunction, some readers may incorrectly assume that all they have
    to do is put quotation marks around what I allegedly said to
    duplicate it. :-)

    As for "that", we probably also should take in mind that quotation marks are visible only in written speech. So, indeed, "that" can really help well the listener to recognize the reported speech beginning when he hears it.

    <skipped>
    ... The language is flexible enough to allow you to say, e.g.,
    that Susie said (that) the moon is made of green cheese... or that
    Ardith has told readers in the E_T echo (that) the city where she currently resides is located in the southwestern corner of Canada.
    There's where the rule of common sense takes precedence IMHO over
    the grammatical neatness of the textbook. :-)

    You, nevertheless, tell that there is a grammatical neatness of the textbook. ;-) Should it mean that according this neatness your sentence should be (in my report):
    "Ardith has told readers ...(that) the city where she currently resides WAS located in the southwestern corner of Canada."

    I see that "was located" sounds a bit funny, but should a teacher teach that a textbook can be ignored sometimes? ;-)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2018

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)