• from Russian again

    From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Ivan Shmakov on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi, Ivan! Recently you wrote in a message to mark lewis:

    the point is that you don't learn someone something...
    you teach someone something ;)

    it is kind of like "sell" and "sale"... you put
    something on sale that you want to sell... i
    always cringe and bit my tongue when i see someone
    insist and even argue about writting that they have
    something "for sell"...

    eg: i have a knife set for sell. call me!

    Somehow, I stumble upon examples like this all the
    time, and /that/ hurts! It's almost as if I'm living
    in a country where English is not an official language,
    or something...

    ... Well, wait. Indeed, I'm living in such a country.
    What a misfortune!


    In that regard I doubt you'd be better off here. Athough English is
    one of the official languages of Canada, my experience is similar to Mark's. I
    understand why people from southeast Asia often have difficulty with plurals in
    English and/or with where we'd draw the line between /r/ and /l/. As Roy says,
    Canada & the US are multicultural countries. But when I hear on the radio, for
    the umpteenth time, that there's a traffic stall on the "Patella Bridge" I have
    much the same reaction Mark does. The name of the bridge is "Pattullo", and it
    sounds just the way it looks... the "patella" is the kneecap. Apparently there
    are many young native speakers of English who haven't grasped the concept. ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Herman Neut on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi & welcome, Herman! Awhile ago you quoted in a message to Roy Witt:

    Russian cosmonaunt: They're just looking for the last
    drop in their Vodka bottle.

    What a love for astronomy!" Russian cosmonaunt: "They
    just drink straight from the bottles."


    Hmm. I wonder who else can find the spelling error which Roy copied
    from Alexander's joke... probably without retyping... and which I didn't notice
    until just now? Your juxtaposition of these quotes was what brought the matter
    to my attention, shortly after my discussion with Dallas re various terminology
    used by sailors. Another way of saying the last five words in my last sentence
    might be [xxx]. If you don't get the drift, do you know of Jason and the [yyy]
    in Greek mythology? IMHO English is less complicated when one understands what
    we've borrowed from whom, and this word is (bad pun) a classic example.... ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Roy Witt on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi, Roy! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Russian cosmonaunt: They're just looking for the last
    drop in their Vodka bottle.

    What a love for astronomy!" Russian cosmonaunt: "They
    just drink straight from the bottles."


    Hmm. I wonder who else can find the spelling error
    which Roy copied from Alexander's joke... probably
    without retyping... and which I didn't notice until
    just now?

    [...]

    A perfect example of assuming that the msger knows how
    to translate and spell a native term.


    Ah, well... you know what some folks say about a$$uming! Translation
    is as much an art as it is a science.... ;-)

    AFAIC Alexander posts these jokes as exercises in translation, on the
    understanding that there may be a few rough spots, and invites suggestions from
    other readers as to possible improvements. It's a long-standing tradition here
    in ENGLISH_TUTOR for the regulars to post their own translations & ask directly
    or indirectly for help. I a$$ume when Alexander posts such items that he would
    like us to proofread his work, even if he neglected to say "F2EP"... [chuckle].



    I should have used the English term of 'astronaut' instead.


    As native speakers of English you & I would probably say "astronaut".
    Although some sources define "cosmonaut" simply as "astronaut", the majority of
    my usual references define it as "a Russian astronaut".


    _ _ _ O / _ _ C_U_T_ H_E_R_E_ _ _ _
    O \

    * There's a wonderful example of the power & beauty of the English
    language, IMHO. While we cheerfully adopt new words from all over the place we
    don't abandon the old ones. Either way "-naut", meaning "sailor"... which came
    to us & to Alexander via the ancient Greeks... has the same spelling. When one
    has made the connection derivatives like "nautical" are fairly straightforward.

    _ _ _ O / _ _ C_U_T_ H_E_R_E_ _ _ _
    O \


    "Astronaut" is certainly in more common use where I come from. It is
    less specific than "cosmonaut", and thus we may have to qualify it sometimes...
    but I wouldn't go so far as to say "cosmonaut" is incorrect. I guess Alexander
    is more familiar with the Russian word. Okay. When a Russian author is poking
    fun at his own countrymen he may not make the same stylistic decisions you or I
    would. It's important to identify the narrator as Russian so everyone else can
    relax & enjoy the story without looking for hidden razor blades and/or worrying
    about who might say "Egad, Sir! You've besmirched the hono(u)r of my country!"
    as we've seen people do in other echoes... [wry grin].

    The advantage of using "astronaut" is that there is no confusion over
    what the author meant; the disadvantage is that we may need to use at least one
    more word to indicate the country. OTOH, the advantage of using "cosmonaut" is
    its economy; the disadvantage is that it may mean different things to different
    people. If a cosmonaut = a Russian astronaut, "Russian cosmonaut" is a serious
    redundancy which I'd (basically) treat as an error. Until there's more general
    agreement as to the definition of "cosmonaut", however, I'll let it pass. :-))


    BTW...

    I enjoyed this discussion & I hope other folks did too. Thankyou for
    bringing the matter to my attention, at any rate.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to Paul Quinn on Mon Jun 11 18:50:48 2018
    Paul Quinn wrote to Roy Witt:

    you're conveniently excluding all the prior work done in ballooning
    in the late-1880s.

    Any Aussies baloon to space and then take a nose dive to earth?

    "Only those who attempt the absurd achieve the impossible." A good
    many other people have balked at the thought, probably for good
    reason(s).

    Their knees wobble too much.

    (RE: Mythbusters...)

    If they couldn't reproduce what Steven Spielberg did in the movie,
    American Grafitti, what entertainment is that?

    Ermm, it's in the journey not of the getting there. For me, it was similarly with the Rocket City Red Neck show (till their accents
    became as grating to my patience as do Kiwi accents). The
    entertainment is in the 'makings' of their attempts. Any actual
    outcomes are unimportant.

    I'd be disappointed with anything but the outcome. Getting there is
    important, as you may learn a few things along the way, but successfully
    doing something is worth more. If they don't succeed, then I feel like
    I've wasted a whole hour in which I could be learning something
    worthwhile.


    R\%/itt


    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-31012
    --- D'Bridge 3.92
    * Origin: Lone-Star BBS - San Antonio, Texas - USA (1:387/22)
  • From Aleksej Serdjukov@2:5020/1042.42 to Roy Witt on Tue Jun 12 15:09:20 2018
    Hello Roy.

    11 Jun 13 10:22, you wrote to alexander koryagin:


    That's the same way that naut is used in the English language. Also in English, astro- means 'outer space' not specifically 'stars'...the
    study of the stars is called astrology, while the study of astrometry
    is of a celestial body, such as Mars or the Sun.

    French "astre" and Spanish and Italian "astro" roughly mean "astronomical object" or "celestial object" (with differences like visibility, according to Wikipedia).


    Aleksej

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20110320
    * Origin: (2:5020/1042.42)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to Aleksej Serdjukov on Tue Jun 12 10:57:36 2018
    Aleksej Serdjukov wrote to Roy Witt:

    That's the same way that naut is used in the English language. Also
    in English, astro- means 'outer space' not specifically
    'stars'...the study of the stars is called astrology, while the
    study of astrometry is of a celestial body, such as Mars or the Sun.

    French "astre" and Spanish and Italian "astro" roughly mean
    "astronomical object" or "celestial object" (with differences like visibility, according to Wikipedia).

    In astronomy, 'astre fictif' means any of several fictitious stars assumed
    to move along the celestial (Earth's) equator at uniform rates. i.e. a satelite.


    R\%/itt


    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-31012
    --- D'Bridge 3.92
    * Origin: Lone-Star BBS - San Antonio, Texas - USA (1:387/22)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/400 to Roy Witt on Wed Jun 13 09:45:26 2018
    From: alexander koryagin <koryagin@erec.ru>

    Hi, Roy Witt!
    I read your message from 11.06.2013 10:22

    an aquanaut, in water; an astronaut - a person traveling between
    stars (that's why it is, for a while, an incorrect term). An
    alconaut - is a person who drinks often. ;=)

    That's the same way that naut is used in the English language. Also
    in English, astro- means 'outer space' not specifically 'stars'...
    the study of the stars is called astrology, while the study of
    astrometry is of a celestial body, such as Mars or the Sun.

    Well, it is probably because that in ancient times people thought
    that the planets were stars, too. "Planet" means a wandering star. That
    was the only difference between planets and stars, and, therefore,
    astronomy learned both the stars and planets. But it's another matter
    now how to call a man who travels in space. Now we know the difference.
    BTW, in Russian books of scientific fantasy we also have an equivalent
    of "astronaut", but we call in such a way only those people who travel
    between stars really.

    <skipped>
    Whoever heard of the term, cosmostrolgy, being used to describe
    the practice of astrology?

    Well, IMHO cosmos is a more general term. After leaving the Earth,
    and we are in cosmos.

    By leaving the Earth's atmosphere, one is in space... as an
    astronaut would be.

    You do, but the word "space" is not a self-sufficing term. There is
    space in a kennel, too. When we speak of the space where the stars and
    planets move, we, if we want to be perfectly correct, speak of the
    cosmic space. That's why "cosmonaut" is more correct. ;-)

    <skipped>
    "Aerodynamically, space begins about 120 miles [190 kilometers]
    from earth. Physiologically and psychologically, however, it starts
    only 12 miles [19 kilometers] up, where survival requires elaborate protection against an actual space environment."

    It is a very interesting adventure...

    Yes, however, the more interesting is the fact that humans think of
    the outer space as about a empty lifeless space. But actually, 96
    percent of things that exist in the Universe are located in the place
    which people call vacuum.

    Bye, Roy!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido7.english-tutor 2013

    --- ifmail v.2.15dev5.4
    * Origin: NPO RUSnet InterNetNews site (2:5020/400)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to alexander koryagin on Thu Jun 14 16:15:22 2018
    alexander koryagin wrote to Roy Witt:

    an aquanaut, in water; an astronaut - a person traveling between
    stars (that's why it is, for a while, an incorrect term). An
    alconaut - is a person who drinks often. ;=)

    That's the same way that naut is used in the English language. Also
    in English, astro- means 'outer space' not specifically 'stars'...
    the study of the stars is called astrology, while the study of
    astrometry is of a celestial body, such as Mars or the Sun.

    Well, it is probably because that in ancient times people thought
    that the planets were stars, too.

    Ancient astrology-sect is an astrological concept in which the seven traditional "planets" (including the Sun, the Moon and the five starry
    planets) are assigned to two different categories: a diurnal or nocturnal
    sect. Forget about the concept and focus on the word ancient astrology.
    i.e. ancient Egyptians and Greeks practiced astrology in the 5th century
    BC.

    "Planet" means a wandering star.

    Not necessarily. Planets were known to exist even in ancient times and
    they were known to be celestial bodies orbiting the sun. During the
    christian era of 1300 AD or so onward to modern times, it was blasphemy to think of anything in space orbiting anything but the Earth. Today and
    before christianity came along, we knew better.

    That was the only difference between planets and stars, and,
    therefore, astronomy learned both the stars and planets.

    Yeah, 5th century BC...

    But it's another matter now how to call a man who travels in space.

    To each his own.

    Now we know the difference. BTW, in Russian books of scientific
    fantasy we also have an equivalent of "astronaut", but we call in
    such a way only those people who travel between stars really.

    When I get into my car and drive off, I'm a 'time traveler', difference.

    <skipped>

    Whoever heard of the term, cosmostrolgy, being used to describe
    the practice of astrology?

    Well, IMHO cosmos is a more general term. After leaving the Earth,
    and we are in cosmos.

    By leaving the Earth's atmosphere, one is in space... as an
    astronaut would be.

    You do, but the word "space" is not a self-sufficing term. There
    is space in a kennel, too. When we speak of the space where the stars
    and planets move, we, if we want to be perfectly correct, speak of
    the cosmic space. That's why "cosmonaut" is more correct. ;-)

    In reality, when traveling in 'outer' space, aka the universe, we're not
    merely a cosmonaut, but interstellar space travelers.

    <skipped>

    "Aerodynamically, space begins about 120 miles [190 kilometers]
    from earth. Physiologically and psychologically, however, it starts
    only 12 miles [19 kilometers] up, where survival requires elaborate
    protection against an actual space environment."

    It is a very interesting adventure...

    Yes, however, the more interesting is the fact that humans think
    of the outer space as about a empty lifeless space.

    Some do, but those who look up and see activity among the stars and other celestial bodies know better.

    But actually, 96 percent of things that exist in the Universe are
    located in the place which people call vacuum.

    So, is the universe expanding or collapsing?


    R\%/itt


    --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-31012
    --- D'Bridge 3.92
    * Origin: Lone-Star BBS - San Antonio, Texas - USA (1:387/22)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/400 to Roy Witt on Sun Jun 17 14:53:32 2018
    From: alexander koryagin <koryagin@erec.ru>

    Hi, Roy Witt!
    I read your message from 14.06.2013 16:15


    "Planet" means a wandering star.
    Not necessarily. Planets were known to exist even in ancient times
    and they were known to be celestial bodies orbiting the sun. During
    the christian era of 1300 AD or so onward to modern times, it was blasphemy to think of anything in space orbiting anything but the
    Earth. Today and before christianity came along, we knew better.

    The thing you have told doesn't refute my words. Ancient people did
    not know any difference between stars and planets, except the one that
    planets wander in the sky. That's why astrology had deal with both stars
    ans planets.

    <skipped>
    Now we know the difference. BTW, in Russian books of scientific
    fantasy we also have an equivalent of "astronaut", but we call in
    such a way only those people who travel between stars really.

    When I get into my car and drive off, I'm a 'time traveler',
    difference.

    "Time traveler" is not correct, IMHO. You can't travel through time
    in your car, can't you?

    <skipped>
    You do, but the word "space" is not a self-sufficing term. There
    is space in a kennel, too. When we speak of the space where the
    stars and planets move, we, if we want to be perfectly correct,
    speak of the cosmic space. That's why "cosmonaut" is more correct.
    ;-)

    In reality, when traveling in 'outer' space, aka the universe,
    we're not merely a cosmonaut, but interstellar space travelers.

    Stars and visible matter is just 4 percent of the Universe. The other
    part is known as the dark matter. Traveling in space, we can travel
    through vast regions where there no stars at all. We can easily say
    that stars is an exclusion from the rules. That's why "space traveler"
    (or " cosmonaut") is a more cool and long-term definition.

    (Stars and visible matter is just 4 percent...)? (stars is an
    exclusion...)?

    <skipped>
    actually, 96 percent of things that exist in the Universe are
    located in the place which people call vacuum.

    So, is the universe expanding or collapsing?

    For a while it expands with acceleration, like the gas during an
    explosion. It is still in the process of explosion - some billions years elapsed from the beginning is a very short term for such a huge
    explosion.

    Bye, Roy!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido7.english-tutor 2013
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    * Origin: NPO RUSnet InterNetNews site (2:5020/400)
  • From Roy Witt@1:387/22 to alexander koryagin on Fri Jul 6 22:01:02 2018
    Brer alexander koryagin wrote to Brer Roy Witt about Re: from Russian
    again:

    Russian roads are awful, but they make beautiful Russian
    women's breasts.

    Is that why they stuff them in their waist band?

    Any healthy member of the body looks even healthier when it is under constant training exercise.

    That speaks to the muscles under the breast, but does nothing for the
    mammeries which are nothing more than glands.

    So their breasts will be rather resilient than dangling.

    The underlying muscle may enhance their looks, but they're still glands.

    Hint -- beautiful Amazon horsewomen didn't use your band at all! ;-)

    LOL! They will, when the time comes.

    American astronaunt looks from ICC at Russia through a pair
    of strong binoculars: "My dear! All Russians look at the
    sky through telescopes.

    American astronaunt: I'll be damned! Russians look at the sky
    through telescopes.

    Well, I think "All" was excessive indeed.

    I use binoculars to look at the night sky. If I find something of
    interest, I haul out the telescope and have a closer look.

    Russian cosmonaunt: They're just looking for the last drop in
    their Vodka bottle.

    Probably, it is not very good, because, first, _looking_ for the last
    drop in the Vodka bottle is a quite short process. So "drinking" is probably sounds more logical. Second, Russians don't look for the
    last drop of vodka, because they never buy only one bottle of vodka.
    ;=)

    Yeah but, it's a shame to let any of it go to waste...

    What a love for astronomy!" Russian cosmonaunt: "They just drink
    straight from the bottles.

    I've grown more sophisticated in my old age; I pour the vodka into a small glass before I drink it. That bottle, even though it gets lighter with
    every swig, is still too heavy for me to bring to my lips.



    R\%/itt - K5RXT

    "It is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all, and
    if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."
    Bram Stoker (1847-1912)

    Thus, we have "Climate Change Science" - which isn't capable of
    explaining anything.


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