• smelled like horse

    From Dallas Hinton@1:153/715 to alexander koryagin on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi alexander -- on Jul 27 2012 at 08:42, you wrote:

    In Golden's "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" I read:

    [Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like horse.]

    Why on earth it is not "smelled like a horse"? ;-)

    Apart from the fact that it's fantasy fiction and therefore breaks many rules with impunity, I think this a way of generalizing a thing.

    In other words, "horse" is equivalent to "perfume". We could say "smelled like skunk", "smelled like manure", "smelled like perfume", and so on.

    Follow up: Mark is right, too! :-)

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, CANADA [telnet: bandmaster.tzo.com] (1:153/715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    In Golden's "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King"


    This is from WORLD OF WARCRAFT, isn't it?

    Context, Alexander... context!! I'm unacquainted with anybody named "Arthas" & I have no idea who the Lich King might be. You could have told us more about where the quote came from, so we wouldn't have to look it up. ;-)



    [Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like
    horse.]

    Why on earth it is not "smelled like a horse"? ;-)


    Fantasy doesn't always follow the "rules" as we know them... [grin].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/715 to alexander koryagin on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi alexander -- on Jul 28 2012 at 20:11, you wrote:

    Probably articles are not so necessary as many think. For instance,
    people don't put articles in newspaper titles, in TV line news; and everybody finds it perfectly OK. Although... that were the words of
    the author, and he was a writer. ;)

    PS: But there is "tired like dog". Probably nobody says "a dog".

    Actually, we would never say "tired like dog" - if I heard that I would say to myself "that's a Russian speaking". :-) More correctly, one should say "as tired as a dog"!



    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, CANADA [telnet: bandmaster.tzo.com] (1:153/715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Context, Alexander... context!! I'm unacquainted with
    anybody named "Arthas" & I have no idea who the Lich King
    might be. You could have told us more about where the
    quote came from, so we wouldn't have to look it up. ;-)

    Well, Arthas is a boy of 11, a prince. Let me give a small
    fragment:

    Arthas was silent and did not look up at Uther.


    Ah. What I was curious about was the setting, i.e. when & where the
    story takes place, because that might help explain the omission of the article.

    "Uther Pendragon" is a name I recognize from tales about King Arthur
    (sixth century)... so the name "Uther" is an important clue AFAIC. While there
    are British names which have survived more or less unchanged to the present day
    this doesn't seem to be among them. The other details you've just added... the
    young scion of the upper classes being trained in horsemanship, the routine use
    of herbal medicine, and the expected attendance at a church service... are also
    reminiscent of the medieval period. My understanding is that WORLD OF WARCRAFT
    occurs in a fictitious time & locale but the weapons used tend to be similar to
    those used in Britain and/or continental Europe during medieval times.

    Now, following up on Mark's diagnosis of "poetic licence"... I think
    that's it in a nutshell. Awhile back you cited a passage from IVANHOE, a novel
    in which the events occur several hundred years after King Arthur. Recognizing
    that even the English majors among us might need a cheat sheet to make sense of
    Middle English, however, the author employed old-fashioned turns of phrase such
    as one might see in the works of Shakespeare or in the King James Bible... both
    of which would have been very familiar to his audience. I suspect the same may
    apply here. In the example of Middle English which I can most easily lay hands
    on, articles are noticeable by their absence. Golden & others may be trying to
    establish the mood in whatever way they think their readers can relate to. :-)



    Probably articles are not so necessary as many think.
    For instance, people don't put articles in newspaper
    titles, in TV line news; and everybody finds it
    perfectly OK.


    Uh-huh. Telegrams are another example.... :-)



    Although... that were the words of the author, and he
    was a writer. ;)


    As was Sir Walter Scott. We're referring to historical fiction &/or
    fantasy, in which it is sufficient to give the reader a bit of the "feeling" of
    the period. A few folks may be inspired to examine the history in more detail.
    But if the author wants to make a living, he must reach a larger audience. ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    In the example of Middle English which I can most
    easily lay hands on, articles are noticeable by their
    absence. Golden & others may be trying to establish
    the mood in whatever way they think their readers can
    relate to. :-)

    I like this idea. There is some ground for an excuse
    when I omit one. ;) I'll say that I like Middle English.


    Uh-huh. Leave out the articles, apply a bit of fuzzy logic to the spelling & pronunciation, and you're in business... [chuckle].



    In short, you've confirmed my idea on how learning the
    English articles. First, you must learn where to put them.
    Then, you must learn where Englishmen omit articles in
    places they must be. ;)


    "The neophyte knows the rules... the expert knows the exceptions." Here's another example I remember from my childhood:

    TO OPEN DOOR,
    PUSH GATE.
    HOLD OPEN TILL
    OFF BUS.

    It's amazing how comfortably we do without articles at times, even now. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/400 to All on Sat Mar 3 08:24:55 2018
    From: "alexander koryagin" <koryagin@erec.ru>

    Hello, All!


    In Golden's "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" I read:

    [Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like horse.]

    Why on earth it is not "smelled like a horse"? ;-)


    Bye All!
    Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru) + 2:5020/2140.91
    fido7.english-tutor 2012



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    * Origin: Demos online service (2:5020/400)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/400 to Ardith Hinton on Sat Mar 3 08:24:55 2018
    From: "alexander koryagin" <koryagin@newmail.ru>

    F2EP
    Hi, Ardith Hinton! How are you?
    on Saturday, 28 of July, I read your message to alexander koryagin
    about "smelled like horse"

    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    In Golden's "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King"


    This is from WORLD OF WARCRAFT, isn't it?

    Context, Alexander... context!! I'm unacquainted with anybody named "Arthas" & I have no idea who the Lich King might be. You could have told us more about where the quote came from, so we wouldn't have
    to look it up. ;-)

    Well, Arthas is a boy of 11, a prince. Let me give a small fragment: =========Beginning of the citation==============
    Arthas was silent and did not look up at Uther. He was angry, embarrassed, and hurting, and wanted nothing more than a hot bath and some briarthorn tea to ease the pain. His right knee was starting to swell.
    "At least you are in time for the prayer session this afternoon." Uther eyed him up and down. "Though you'll need to wash up." Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like horse. It was a good smell, he thought. An honest one. "Hurry up. We'll be assembling in the chapel."

    =========The end of the citation================

    So it was Golden words, the author. ;-)


    [Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like
    horse.]

    Why on earth it is not "smelled like a horse"? ;-)

    Fantasy doesn't always follow the "rules" as we know them... [grin].

    Probably articles are not so necessary as many think. For instance, people don't put articles in newspaper titles, in TV line news; and everybody finds it
    perfectly OK. Although... that were the words of the author, and he was a writer. ;)

    PS: But there is "tired like dog". Probably nobody says "a dog".

    [...LIZA: I dont want to talk grammar. I want to talk like a lady.]
    Bye Ardith!
    Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru) + 2:5020/2140.91
    fido7.english-tutor 2012


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    * Origin: Demos online service (2:5020/400)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/400 to mark lewis on Sat Mar 3 08:24:55 2018
    From: "alexander koryagin" <koryagin@newmail.ru>

    F2EP
    Hi, mark lewis! How are you?
    on Saturday, 28 of July, I read your message to alexander koryagin
    about "smelled like horse"

    In Golden's "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" I read:

    [Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like horse.]

    Why on earth it is not "smelled like a horse"? ;-)

    substitution comes in again...

    which of the following is (more) correct?

    Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like fecal material.

    Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like a fecal material.

    IMHO, there are no articles before substances, unless you use "a piece of...."

    but, to be honest, i think it is more "poetic license"... perhaps the author is trying to show that the smell of one horse doesn't cover
    it... a crowd of smelly horses smells like... well... horse ;)

    Well... In short, a grammatically correct phrase would have been too awkward in
    this situation. ;)

    [...A lot of people mistake a short memory for a clear conscience]
    Bye mark!
    Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru) + 2:5020/2140.91
    fido7.english-tutor 2012


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    * Origin: Demos online service (2:5020/400)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/400 to mark lewis on Sat Mar 3 08:24:55 2018
    From: "alexander koryagin" <koryagin@newmail.ru>

    F2EP
    Hi, mark lewis! How are you?
    on Saturday, 28 of July, I read your message to alexander koryagin
    about "smelled like horse"


    In Golden's "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" I read:

    [Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like horse.]

    Why on earth it is not "smelled like a horse"? ;-)

    substitution comes in again...

    which of the following is (more) correct?

    Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like fecal material.

    Arthas was indeed sweaty and knew he smelled like a fecal material.

    No, it is not correct - no articles before substances, unless you use "a piece of...."

    but, to be honest, i think it is more "poetic license"... perhaps the author is trying to show that the smell of one horse doesn't cover
    it... a crowd of smelly horses smells like... well... horse ;)

    Well... In short, a grammatically correct phrase would have been too awkward in
    this situation. ;)

    [...A lot of people mistake a short memory for a clear conscience]
    Bye mark!
    Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru) + 2:5020/2140.91
    fido7.english-tutor 2012


    --- ifmail v.2.15dev5.4
    * Origin: Demos online service (2:5020/400)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/400 to Dallas Hinton on Sat Mar 3 08:24:55 2018
    From: "alexander koryagin" <koryagin@newmail.ru>

    F2EP
    Hi, Dallas Hinton! How are you?
    on Sunday, 29 of July, I read your message to alexander koryagin
    about "smelled like horse"

    Probably articles are not so necessary as many think. For instance,
    people don't put articles in newspaper titles, in TV line news; and
    everybody finds it perfectly OK. Although... that were the words of
    the author, and he was a writer. ;)

    PS: But there is "tired like dog". Probably nobody says "a dog".

    Actually, we would never say "tired like dog" - if I heard that I would say to myself "that's a Russian speaking". :-) More correctly, one
    should say "as tired as a dog"!

    Then he must smell like a horse. ;-)

    [...Even a neutron has its antiparticle]
    Bye Dallas!
    Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru) + 2:5020/2140.91
    fido7.english-tutor 2012


    --- ifmail v.2.15dev5.4
    * Origin: Demos online service (2:5020/400)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/400 to Ardith Hinton on Sat Mar 3 08:24:55 2018
    From: "alexander koryagin" <koryagin@erec.ru>

    F2EP
    Hi, Ardith Hinton! How are you?
    on Monday, 06 of August, I read your message to alexander koryagin
    about "smelled like horse"

    Context, Alexander... context!! I'm unacquainted with anybody
    named "Arthas" & I have no idea who the Lich King might be. You
    could have told us more about where the quote came from, so we
    wouldn't have to look it up. ;-)

    Well, Arthas is a boy of 11, a prince. Let me give a small
    fragment:

    Arthas was silent and did not look up at Uther.
    <skipped>

    Ah. What I was curious about was the setting, i.e. when & where the
    story takes place, because that might help explain the omission of
    the article.

    "Uther Pendragon" is a name I recognize from tales about King
    Arthur (sixth century)... so the name "Uther" is an important clue
    AFAIC. While there are British names which have survived more or
    less unchanged to the present day this doesn't seem to be among
    them. The other details you've just added... the young scion of the
    upper classes being trained in horsemanship, the routine use of
    herbal medicine, and the expected attendance at a church service...
    are also reminiscent of the medieval period. My understanding is
    that WORLD OF WARCRAFT occurs in a fictitious time & locale but the weapons used tend to be similar to those used in Britain and/or continental Europe during medieval times.

    The world of warcraft is not real at all. For instance, there are orcs there, and they cannot be accociated with any people on Earth.

    Now, following up on Mark's diagnosis of "poetic licence"... I
    think that's it in a nutshell. Awhile back you cited a passage from IVANHOE, a novel in which the events occur several hundred years
    after King Arthur. Recognizing that even the English majors among
    us might need a cheat sheet to make sense of Middle English,
    however, the author employed old-fashioned turns of phrase such as
    one might see in the works of Shakespeare or in the King James
    Bible... both of which would have been very familiar to his
    audience. I suspect the same may apply here. In the example of
    Middle English which I can most easily lay hands on, articles are noticeable by their absence. Golden & others may be trying to
    establish the mood in whatever way they think their readers can
    relate to.: - )

    I like this idea. There is some ground for an excuse when I omit one. ;) I'll say that I like Middle English.

    Probably articles are not so necessary as many think. For
    instance, people don't put articles in newspaper titles, in TV
    line news; and everybody finds it perfectly OK.
    Uh-huh. Telegrams are another example....: - )
    Although... that were the words of the author, and he was a
    writer. ;)

    As was Sir Walter Scott. We're referring to historical fiction &/or fantasy, in which it is sufficient to give the reader a bit of the "feeling" of the period. A few folks may be inspired to examine the history in more detail. But if the author wants to make a living,
    he must reach a larger audience. ;-)

    In short, you've confirmed my idea on how learning the English articles. First,
    you must learn where to put them. Then, you must learn where Englishmen omit articles in places they must be. ;)

    [...Why am I so kind? I haven't enough malice for all]
    Bye Ardith!
    Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru) + 2:5020/2140.91
    fido7.english-tutor 2012



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    * Origin: Demos online service (2:5020/400)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Wed Jul 3 14:36:24 2019
    Dallas Hinton:

    Apart from the fact that it's fantasy fiction and
    therefore breaks many rules with impunity, I think this
    a way of generalizing a thing.

    Fantasy can violate realism, but why should it break the
    rules of grammar? The best fantasy writers -- Erick Rucker
    Eddison, Clack Ashton Smith, Lord Dunsany, Tolkien -- all
    had exquisite grammar.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Wed Jul 3 15:25:04 2019
    I miswrote:

    Erick Rucker Eddison, Clack Ashton Smith

    Eric Rucker Eddison, Clark Ashton Smith.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Anton Shepelev on Wed Jul 3 14:34:56 2019
    Hi Anton -- on Jul 03 2019 at 14:36, you wrote:

    Fantasy can violate realism, but why should it break the
    rules of grammar? The best fantasy writers -- Erick Rucker
    Eddison, Clack Ashton Smith, Lord Dunsany, Tolkien -- all
    had exquisite grammar.

    They may have had exquisite grammar themselves, but many of their characters did not, and therefore when their characters' speech is written it may appear in error.

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)