Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

In a novel "A SCANDAL IN BOHEMIA" about Sherlock Holmes, by Sir
Arthur Conan Doyle, I've read this:

=========Beginning of the citation==============
"On the contrary, my dear sir," cried the King; "nothing
could be more successful. I know that her word is inviolate. The photograph is now as safe as if it were in the fire."
"I am glad to hear your Majesty say so."
"I am immensely indebted to you. Pray tell me in what way
I can reward you. This ring-" He slipped an emerald snake ring
from his finger and held it out upon the palm of his hand.
"Your Majesty has something which I should value even more
highly," said Holmes.

=========The end of the citation================

It seems something strange:

1. I am glad to hear your Majesty _say_ so. (I'd write "says or
said")

How about "I'm glad to hear you say so, Mr. President?" or "I'm glad to hear you, i.e. Alexander Koryagin, or [him/her/it/them] say so?"

When in doubt I often find it helpful to use substitute words and/or change the word order. The infinitive may be confusing there, but IMHO Holmes can be trusted to speak English correctly in view of the time & place.... ;-)

Another example, which Dallas & I observed in the TV news just after we'd received your message: an old brick building in Vancouver was demolished because it was considered to be unsafe & the necessary repairs would have been prohibitively expensive. The owner of the property was hoping to sell it to a developer. Over a year has now elapsed & no prospective buyers have appeared. Meanwhile, the rubble which was not properly dealt with has attracted hundreds of rats. Scientists from a local university caught fifteen of them in one day with just one trap, and they're having a great time determining whether or not we have cause for concern about a 21st century equivalent of the Black Plague. The reason I am relating this long & sordid tale, however, pertains to the use of a similar grammatical construction. When residents of the neighbourhood... i.e. folks who are almost certainly at a much lower level on the socioeconomic spectrum than the hero of Sir Arthur's tales... are asked for their opinion on the subject a typical response is "I'd like to see the city clean it up & send the bill to the owner." IOW this usage still persists on the Wet Coast of BC, thousands of miles away & a century later, even among folks who are neither as intelligent nor as well-educated as the fictional person in your example. :-)

2. Your Majesty _has_ something...

Makes sense to me. I have something, you (singular) have something, he/she/it has something. We have something, you (plural) have something, they have something. If Holmes wasn't asking a favour it would be quite acceptable to use "Sir" after the initial "Your Majesty"... or it would be nowadays. But 21st century monarchs say things like "my husband & I" whereas in your example we are dealing with a more formal era. It seems to me "Your Majesty" is being treated grammatically as third person singular... or maybe the vocative case I heard about in Latin class is still used in English, but nobody ever explained it to me that way! Once again about all I can add is that I've run across the same usage in various books which originated during the past 400+ years. :-))

It means that in the first sentence it must be "says"?

No, but I'm still wondering whether the infinitive may be the source of confusion. The infinitive in English can perform various roles... e.g.

To be, or not to be: That is the question. (noun)

To err is human; to forgive, divine. (adjective)


And to make matters worse, "to" may be omitted on occasion... e.g.

I'd like to dance and tap my feet
But they won't keep in rhythm

[This is a song. It's not formal English. The composer(s) wanted the line to scan with the correct number of syllables... and I agree with their decision.]




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

How about "I'm glad to hear you say so, Mr. President?"

well, YOU say. No "s".

Right.

or "I'm glad to hear you, i.e. Alexander Koryagin, or
[him/her/it/them] say so?"

Ah! There is a rule

I hadn't heard of it... but I think you're onto something. It's obvious that "to hear" is an infinitive in the examples above. What I wasn't sure of was whether or not "say" is also an infinitive in this context. Your excerpt from Wiki settled the question AFAIC, and I'm delighted because I now understand *why* I would say what I'd say the way I'd say it. Thankyou! :-)

So, "I saw/watched/heard/etc. it happen."

Or "I saw [him/her/it/them] break the window," for example.

(A similar meaning can be effected by using the
present participle instead: "I saw/watched/heard/etc.
it happening." The difference is that the former
implies that the entirety of the event was perceived,
while the latter implies that part of the progress of
the event was perceived.)

I saw a man running down the alley with a box under his arm just after the alarm went off in one of the local stores. This actually happened, BTW. I didn't see where he came from or where he went, but I could offer the police a good description of him because I was only a few feet away.... :-))

There is an essential difference between the Russian
grammar and the English one. ;) The Russian Grammar
orders the Russians to speak in a certain way, but the
English Grammar just describes the way the people talk.

During the 1960's some very influential linguists... including, IIRC, Noam Chomsky... proclaimed that dictionaries & grammar texts should be descriptive rather than prescriptive. (I wouldn't be surprised to hear that most if not all of these experts were native speakers of English, but at the time I first became aware of such developments I was in university & my main concern was about making sense of various people's ideas WRT how traditional grammar could be improved upon.) As a student in high school I had much the same experience with language textbooks in general that you seem to have had with sources of information about your own language.

Nowadays, with a few minor changes, traditional grammar remains the most widely accepted & understood method of explaining why we do what we do. I am familiar with it. English/English dictionaries still use it. And when my buddies in Russia use it, we're on the same wave length. If I'm not quite sure about the names of verb tenses in English, AAMOF, I often find it easier to consult them than to locate old textbooks from yesteryear. OTOH I supply information others may need in order to decide for themselves whether
to say xxx or yyy. That is my preferred learning & teaching style, and most
of my recent English-language sources try to strike a happy medium too. :-)

Maybe, here there is a rule: you _can_ omit "to" when
to verb are connected with "and." For instance,

I'd like to drink and tell you a story.

Sometimes. FOWLER'S also lists that option. As a co-ordinating conjunction, "and" joins elements which are grammatically equal. If you want to use it to join two or more infinitives, that is perfectly acceptable. The second & subsequent infinitives are often bare infinitives... particularly in colloquial speech. They're still infinitives either way. But as a matter of style, it may be preferable *not* to use shortcuts in formal speech and/or in other situations where they could render one's intentions less clear.... ;-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

From: "alexander koryagin" <koryagin@erec.ru>

Hello, All!


In a novel "A SCANDAL IN BOHEMIA" about Sherlock Holmes, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, I've read this:

=========Beginning of the citation==============
"On the contrary, my dear sir," cried the King; "nothing could be
more successful. I know that her word is inviolate. The photograph is now
as safe as if it were in the fire."
"I am glad to hear your Majesty say so."
"I am immensely indebted to you. Pray tell me in what way I can reward you. This ring-" He slipped an emerald snake ring from his finger
and held it out upon the palm of his hand.
"Your Majesty has something which I should value even more highly,"
said Holmes.

=========The end of the citation================


It seems something strange:

1. I am glad to hear your Majesty _say_ so. (I'd write "says or said")

I can suppose that "your Majesty" is plural, but look:

2. Your Majesty _has_ something...

It means that in the first sentence it must be "says"?

Bye All!
Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru) + 2:5020/2140.91
fido7.english-tutor 2012



--- ifmail v.2.15dev5.4
* Origin: Demos online service (2:5020/400)

From: "alexander koryagin" <koryagin@erec.ru>

F2EP
Hi, Ardith Hinton! How are you?
on Wednesday, 13 of June, I read your message to alexander koryagin
about "King, Sherlock Holmes and a verb ;)"

=========The end of the citation================
"I am glad to hear your Majesty say so."
"Your Majesty has something which I should value even more
=========The end of the citation================

How about "I'm glad to hear you say so, Mr. President?"

well, YOU say. No "s".

or
"I'm glad to hear you, i.e. Alexander Koryagin, or [him/her/it/them]
say so?"

Ah! There is a rule that if we use infinive after "here," etc. I read it once, but forgot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitive
-----Beginning of the citation-----
The bare infinitive is not used in as many contexts as the full infinitive, but some of these are quite common:
<skipped>
Several common verbs of perception, including see, watch, hear, feel, and sense take a direct object and a bare infinitive, where the bare infinitive indicates an action taken by the main verb's direct object. So,
"I saw/watched/heard/etc. it happen." (A similar meaning can be effected
by using the present participle instead: "I saw/watched/heard/etc. it happening." The difference is that the former implies that the entirety of
the event was perceived, while the latter implies that part of the progress of the event was perceived.)
-----The end of the citation-----

<skipped>

Another example, which Dallas & I observed in the TV news just after
we'd received your message: an old brick building in Vancouver was demolished because it was considered to be unsafe & the necessary repairs would have been prohibitively expensive. The owner of the property was hoping to sell it to a developer. Over a year has now elapsed & no prospective buyers have appeared. Meanwhile, the rubble which was not properly dealt with has attracted hundreds of rats. Scientists from a local university caught fifteen of them in one day
with just one trap, and they're having a great time determining whether or not we have cause for concern about a 21st century equivalent of the Black Plague. The reason I am relating this long & sordid tale, however, pertains to the use of a similar grammatical construction. When residents of the neighbourhood... i.e. folks who
are almost certainly at a much lower level on the socioeconomic spectrum than the hero of Sir Arthur's tales... are asked for their opinion on the subject a typical response is "I'd like to see the
city clean it up & send the bill to the owner." IOW this usage still persists on the Wet Coast of BC, thousands of miles away & a century later, even among folks who are neither as intelligent nor as well- educated as the fictional person in your example.: - )

There is an essential difference between the Russian grammar and the English one. ;) The Russian Grammar orders the Russians to speak in a certain way, but the English Grammar just describes the way the people talk.

<skipped>

And to make matters worse, "to" may be omitted on occasion... e.g.

I'd like to dance and tap my feet
But they won't keep in rhythm

[This is a song. It's not formal English. The composer(s) wanted the
line to scan with the correct number of syllables... and I agree with their decision.]

Maybe, here there is a rule: you _can_ omit "to" when to verb are
connected with "and." For instance,

I'd like to drink and tell you a story.


[...Each bird loves to hear himself sing]
Bye Ardith!
Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru) + 2:5020/2140.91
fido7.english-tutor 2012



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