• More Word Play

    From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anybody Interested on Sat Dec 23 20:00:22 2017
    Here's a two-part puzzle:

    * see if you can translate these song titles into everyday English

    and

    * see if I missed any spelling errors. This version was inspired by one I
    noticed in another echo years ago. Since the author is unknown I sought
    to improve on the original, but I may have overlooked a few things. ;-)



    1. Tintinnabulating metallic objects


    2. Secluded in a feeding trough


    3. Mythical senior gent will soon visit our community.


    4. Heavenly beings have sounded to our ears from great altitude.


    5. Who can identify this youngster?


    6. Majesty in triplicate


    7. Depart, and broadcast upon the highest elevation...


    8. Embellish the corridor or meeting-room with prickly shrubbery.


    9. Assurance of return to one's permanent address, or to similar
    family domicile, coinciding with winter celebrations


    10. The wholistic, right-brain response to the yuletide season is
    commencing to a great degree.


    11. The sum total of what I wish for myself at this time is a
    matching set of incisors.


    12. Unique & allegedly most well-known individual of a species
    native to arctic & subarctic regions



    I'll post the answers later.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@2:203/2 to Ardith Hinton on Sun Dec 24 08:33:10 2017
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 12/24/2017 05:00 AM, you wrote:

    I'll post the answers later.... :-)

    Please do. You know, until I saw #11 I originally thought that you had erroneously inserted a month's homework programme for a class of young smarties
    into the echo. I don't feel any better now knowing you're not mistaken. :-D

    Season's blessings on you & your dearest...

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Sun Dec 24 16:12:26 2017
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I'll post the answers later.... :-)

    Please do. You know, until I saw #11 I originally
    thought that you had erroneously inserted a month's
    homework programme for a class of young smarties
    into the echo.


    #11 has to do with a kid who, according to a primary teacher I once worked with, is by her rule of thumb ready to begin learning to read.

    On some level you must have guessed the kid is +/- six years old... and I doubt we have anybody of such a tender age in E_T. If you're old enough to remember hearing the original on the Hit Parade, you have an advantage over younger folk who may not have heard it at all. In retrospect I suppose it may not have been a good example because it was a bit of a flash in the pan. Like "I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas", only the right person can carry it off. Even grownups who think they can sing tend to avoid recording this stuff. ;-)



    I don't feel any better now knowing you're not mistaken.


    IMHO you're smarter than you believe you are! Dallas says I should have mentioned that these are all Christmas carols or popular songs associated with the season... information which would have made the task easier.


    #12 has to do with a herd animal domesticated in northern Eurasia & used for pulling sleds, according to my OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY. Maybe you can fill us in on the "Six White Boomers" I remember from my youth. I can see how readers from various countries might have fun with the song, anyway. :-))



    Season's blessings on you & your dearest...


    And the same back to you! Thanks for your reply.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Dec 25 11:08:56 2017
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 24 Dec 17 16:12, you wrote to me:

    #11 has to do with a kid who, according to a primary
    teacher I once worked with, is by her rule of thumb ready to begin learning to read.

    :) Sore gums & insufficient skills with forming words without tongue pressure on pearly whites makes them quietly studious.

    IMHO you're smarter than you believe you are! Dallas says
    I should have mentioned that these are all Christmas carols or popular songs associated with the season... information which would have made
    the task easier.

    He's incorrect. I saw it from my second eyeball browse.

    #12 has to do with a herd animal domesticated in northern Eurasia & used for pulling sleds, according to my OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY.

    I used to think it was sled dogs. I was recently corrected by a bloke from the
    Aland Islands that it's more likely as you intend. My wrist got slapped.

    Maybe you can fill us in on the "Six White Boomers" I remember from my youth. I can see how readers from various countries might have fun
    with the song, anyway. :-))

    This is not easy for me. I'm mentally stuck on a bawdy ballad I learned from my dad who was a WWII vet having fought in New Guinea, with close ties with USA
    troops. I can't get past the (later) lyrics in the "She'll Be Coming Round the
    Mountain" song. Oops. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Don't worry about the line noise. It's just koalas fornicating.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20110213
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Dec 26 20:10:03 2017
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 23.12.2017 14:00
    about More Word Play.

    Here's a two-part puzzle:

    * see if you can translate these song titles into everyday English

    I can't participate because I don't know English songs, except maybe "Yesterday". ;) But this morning I read this:

    ....Its starting to rain--"
    "Poor, poor," said Mr. Butt cheerfully, adjusting his galoshes. "I never mind the rain -- does one good."

    The same request: can translate "does one good" into everyday English?

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to alexander koryagin on Tue Dec 26 09:22:42 2017
    On 2017 Dec 26 20:10:02, you wrote to Ardith Hinton:

    ....Its starting to rain--"
    "Poor, poor," said Mr. Butt cheerfully, adjusting his galoshes. "I never mind the rain -- does one good."

    The same request: can translate "does one good" into everyday English?

    it is another shorthand... they left the 'it' off...

    it does one good.

    in other words, 'it', whatever 'it' is, 'is good for a being'...


    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... We be 'jammin.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Wed Dec 27 17:12:17 2017
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    #11 has to do with a kid who, according to a primary
    teacher I once worked with, is by her rule of thumb
    ready to begin learning to read.

    :) Sore gums & insufficient skills with forming words
    without tongue pressure on pearly whites makes them
    quietly studious.


    Interesting thought. The kid in the song was anxiously awaiting his new chompers because then... as he said with a lisp... "I could wish you Merry Christmas." AFAIK he didn't complain about having to read aloud in class. :-)



    Dallas says I should have mentioned that these are
    all Christmas carols or popular songs associated with
    the season... information which would have made the
    task easier.

    He's incorrect. I saw it from my second eyeball browse.


    I assumed many native speakers probably would, so I cut out a lot of the rather wordy preamble in the version I was working from... then I began to wonder if I'd pruned it too severely. WRT this example you clearly understand what the song is about, but it may never have been widely known beyond Z1.



    #12 has to do with a herd animal domesticated in northern
    Eurasia & used for pulling sleds, according to my OXFORD
    CANADIAN DICTIONARY.

    I used to think it was sled dogs. I was recently corrected
    by a bloke from the Aland Islands that it's more likely as
    you intend.


    Yes, in Scandinavia & parts of Russia the mode of transportation I'm thinking of involves a species of rangifer. There are very similar animals in Alaska & northern Canada... AKA "caribou"... but I reckon they are a different subspecies &/or nobody thought of trying to domesticate them years ago.

    In North America sled dogs haul things over the frozen tundra, which BTW appears to be much like the taiga north of the Russian steppes. :-)



    My wrist got slapped.


    Maybe he feels invisible... just as Canadians often do... because he finds himself swamped by USAian culture. OTOH I'm far more motivated to learn about SomePlace Else when I know somebody who actually lives there. :-)



    Maybe you can fill us in on the "Six White Boomers" I
    remember from my youth. I can see how readers from
    various countries might have fun with the song, anyway.

    This is not easy for me. I'm mentally stuck on a bawdy
    ballad I learned from my dad who was a WWII vet having
    fought in New Guinea, with close ties with USA troops.
    I can't get past the (later) lyrics in the "She'll Be
    Coming Round the Mountain" song. Oops. ;-)


    Ah. I was thinking of how many North American traditions, including the name "Santa Claus" & the names of a pair of reindeer, seem to have come to us from... using the term loosely... northern Europe. Our friends from Russia &/or Scandinavia may be able to tell us more about reindeer. Our friends from the UK may be able to tell us more about the romanticized "Dickens Villages" I see around these parts. And while I have some theories about the etymology of the names I'd like to chat with somebody who speaks Dutch &/or German.... :-)

    I know very little about what goes on nowadays in parts of the world close to or south of the Equator. I do remember reading as a child about some folks in Australia who went swimming on Christmas Day, and I also remember the version of "Six White Boomers" recorded by children's entertainer Rolf Harris. Although my father was a WWII vet he didn't share any bawdy ballads with me... but I understand how early experiences can take precedence in one's mind. And perhaps we make more fuss about Christmas where it's cold & dark outside. :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Dec 28 12:20:32 2017
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 27 Dec 17 17:12, you wrote to me:

    quietly studious.

    Interesting thought. The kid in the song was anxiously
    awaiting his new chompers because then... as he said with a lisp... "I could wish you Merry Christmas." AFAIK he didn't complain about having
    to read aloud in class. :-)

    There you go... it kinda proves the addage, "ah, youth, it's so wasted on the young".

    WRT this example you clearly understand what the song is about, but it
    may never have been widely known beyond Z1.

    Yeah, I was thinking the same just this morning.

    In North America sled dogs haul things over the frozen
    tundra, which BTW appears to be much like the taiga north of the
    Russian steppes. :-)

    My only guide is a wonderful Ray Mears 'bushcraft' documentary made about living in various locales in Sweden. The only four-legged sled prime movers were dogs. The larger deer types were for breeding, herding and selling. My bad for having a solitary information source. :)

    And perhaps we make more fuss about Christmas where it's cold & dark outside. :-Q

    There is a big fuss hereunder as well. In our predicament it's a matter of trying to keep cool. Christmas day (and Boxing day) at this home, the home of my deceased wife's parents, in past years was the center-point of their family.
    The day was spent under a mango tree. A huge tree, giving enough shade for four family groups and kids (my brothers'-in-law familys and mine).

    The usual entertainment for the kids included waterslides, wading pools and just playing under the running garden hose and chasing dogs or each other with buckets of water. Adult entertainment _always_ had an element of backyard cricket for a while till it got too hot. (My in-laws were all local town sporting heroes.) It was a lively afair with a yard full of people: 25-30, with occasional family friends visiting.

    Upstairs, the TV would be booming the usual proceedings of the Sydney-to-Hobart
    yacht race -or- the Boxing day *Ashes* cricket match against the Poms.

    Most Aussie familys have similar get-togethers at this time of year. Maybe not
    at home, and most certainly not as large. It's all about staying cool. Even the food is cool. Only the 'snags' (i.e. sausages, for youse northerners) and onions are hot, on the barbecue. :)

    Oh. We as a nation have disowned Rolf Harris.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... 'Beloe Zlato' (White Gold) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8slArpj_XU --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20110213
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Thu Dec 28 15:59:25 2017
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 27.12.2017 11:12
    about More Word Play.


    Yes, in Scandinavia & parts of Russia the mode of transportation I'm thinking of involves a species of rangifer. There
    are very similar animals in Alaska & northern Canada... AKA "caribou"... but I reckon they are a different subspecies &/or nobody thought of
    trying to domesticate them years ago.

    In North America sled dogs haul things over the frozen
    tundra, which BTW appears to be much like the taiga north of the Russian steppes. :-)

    The main problem here is where to get food for draught animals. Rangifer can get it themselves by digging snow with their hoofs and getting out lichen. But dogs want meat. From another side where there are deer there there is meat. From the third side if you can drive your sledge using deer why you need a pack
    of dogs? ;-)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Thu Dec 28 23:20:18 2017
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    * see if you can translate these song titles into
    everyday English

    I can't participate because I don't know English
    songs, except maybe "Yesterday".


    Fair enough. I know three Russian folk songs + the Ukrainian "Carol
    of the Bells"... in English only... so I'm in much the same position. I wasn't
    sure how much you knew, because I've seen you make reference to USAian movies &
    TV shows. But whether or not they have subtitles they are easier to understand
    than stuff you may hear on the radio or whatever which provides no visual cues.

    In general I wouldn't recommend songs as a way of honing one's skill
    in English or any other language without a written copy of the lyrics.... :-))



    But this morning I read this:

    ....Its starting to rain--"


    Heh. I imagine you figured I'd know about rain, in view of my jokes
    about how I live on the Wet Coast & how Vancouverites have webbed feet.... ;-)



    "Poor, poor," said Mr. Butt cheerfully, adjusting his
    galoshes. "I never mind the rain -- does one good."


    You got a triple whammy there. Let's try an easier example:

    Mom said "Take your medicine, Junior. It will do you good!"



    The same request: can translate "does one good" into
    everyday English?


    As a Vancouverite I note with interest that the same people who were
    complaining about a dry period we had here recently also complained when Mother
    Nature made up for it in November. At times I find myself tempted to say "Rain
    is beneficial to human health. It keeps the dust down, cleans the air, reduces
    the incidence & severity of forest fires, provides water for washing & bathing,
    and encourages the growth of plants which in turn add to our supply of oxygen."
    I thought I remembered something about negative ions as well, and Dallas kindly
    located a reference at undergroundhealthreporter.com/18469-2/ entitled "Rain Is
    Good for Your Body". IMHO the problem you're having with this excerpt is not so
    much that the author didn't use everyday English but that s/he did. Once again
    short, simple words with multiple meanings may be trickier than they look. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Sun Dec 31 18:16:24 2017
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Yes, in Scandinavia & parts of Russia the mode of
    transportation I'm thinking of involves a species
    of rangifer. There are very similar animals in
    Alaska & northern Canada... AKA "caribou"... but
    I reckon they are a different subspecies &/or nobody
    thought of trying to domesticate them years ago.

    In North America sled dogs haul things over the frozen
    tundra, which BTW appears to be much like the taiga
    north of the Russian steppes. :-)

    The main problem here is where to get food for draught
    animals.


    Indeed....



    Rangifer can get it themselves by digging snow with
    their hoofs and getting out lichen.


    AKA "reindeer moss"... I remember that from my school days. We have mosses & lichens here in the Vancouver area too. I'm not always sure which is which when I see a number of different varieties growing together, but I think one of the distinguishing features of lichens is "mixed agriculture".... :-))



    But dogs want meat.


    In general, yes. Canines are somewhat adaptable, though, because in the wild (where they must hunt for their food) they eat the partially digested stomach contents of various other animals. As a young man Dallas lived in the Northwest Territories for awhile & met some Inuit who would catch fish to feed their sled dogs but refused to eat it themselves.... :-)



    From another side where there are deer there there
    is meat.


    And milk & leather, according to my OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY. :-)



    From the third side if you can drive your sledge
    using deer why you need a pack of dogs? ;-)


    I'll have more to say later, but these were my initial thoughts:

    * Folks do what they're used to. If your parents & grandparents
    did things a certain way and it seems to work for you, why mess with success?
    As we say in Fidonet... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

    * The deer I see around these parts produce fewer offspring at a
    time than dogs do. One might have to be careful not to eat too many of them.

    * Dogs are probably better equipped to defend themselves if they
    can't run away from other animals & they also serve as a deterrent to animals
    which could be harmful to people or property. Humans may make some decisions
    based on what flora & fauna live in the area(s) where they want to live. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Tue Jan 2 23:36:29 2018
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Interesting thought. The kid in the song was anxiously
    awaiting his new chompers because then... as he said
    with a lisp... "I could wish you Merry Christmas." AFAIK
    he didn't complain about having to read aloud in class.

    There you go... it kinda proves the addage, "ah, youth,
    it's so wasted on the young".


    Yes & no. Kids have the energy to keep on trying until they get it right... and there's no shame when their age mates are in the same boat. ;-)



    [WRT the use of reindeer for pulling sleds Over Yonder]
    My only guide is a wonderful Ray Mears 'bushcraft'
    documentary made about living in various locales in
    Sweden. The only four-legged sled prime movers were
    dogs.


    I should have said reindeer are used in parts of Scandinavia.

    If you or I were to travel to Sweden we might find very few reindeer used for serious transportation nowadays. When I tried googling for more info on the subject I got a bunch of ads for tourist lodges which offer brief rides in sleighs pulled by reindeer. Apart from that, it's a challenge for those of us who live elsewhere to figure out what's going on & why. What I was able to piece together is that the Chernobyl accident decimated many reindeer herds in Sweden & that in some areas only the Sami people... AKA Lapps or Laplanders... are allowed to herd reindeer. I gather Norway has similar restrictions, but I found no evidence of legal limits on sled dogs in Sweden or any other country.

    When I look up Ray Mears, however, I'm informed that on his visit to Sweden in 2004-2005 he filmed Samis using sled dogs. Colour me confused. :-)



    My bad for having a solitary information source. :)


    In general, I'd suggest using more than one... but I can't blame you if I'm reminded of the "back-to-the-land" movement which occurred in Z1 during the 1970's. There were books & magazines aplenty for those who wanted to take up farming in e.g. Alaska, many offering advice which could be applied by city gardeners and/or folks with a summer cottage closer to home. Ray Mears may be very skilled at making documentaries like the one Dallas & I watched about how somebody built a log cabin in Finland. I can't blame him for not going into a detailed explanation of how things work for a relatively small number of folks who live in more isolated northern areas of whichever country. Some of my own sources may have been overly brief &/or outdated WRT this topic... [wry grin].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anybody Interested on Fri Jan 5 22:19:28 2018
    Here are some answers to the puzzle I posted earlier. I didn't say *the* answers because if there was an official answer sheet I don't have it.... ;-)


    1. Tintinnabulating metallic objects


    "Jingle Bells", "Silver Bells"



    2. Secluded in a feeding trough


    "Away in a Manger"



    3. Mythical senior gent will soon visit our community.


    "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town"



    4. Heavenly beings have sounded to our ears from great altitude.


    "Angels We Have Heard on High"



    5. Who can identify this youngster?


    "What Child Is This?"



    6. Majesty in triplicate


    "We Three Kings"



    7. Depart, and broadcast upon the highest elevation...


    "Go Tell It on the Mountain"



    8. Embellish the corridor with prickly shrubbery.


    "Deck the Hall with Boughs of Holly"



    9. Assurance of return to one's permanent address, or to similar
    family domicile, coinciding with winter celebrations


    "I'll Be Home for Christmas"



    10. The wholistic, right-brain response to the yuletide
    season is commencing to a great degree.


    "It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas"



    11. The sum total of what I wish for myself this yuletide
    season is a matching set of incisors.


    "All I Want for Christmas is My Two Front Teeth"



    12. Unique & allegedly most well-known individual of a
    species native to arctic & subarctic regions


    "Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer"




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Sun Jan 21 21:06:19 2018
    Hi again, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    And perhaps we make more fuss about Christmas where
    it's cold & dark outside. :-Q

    There is a big fuss hereunder as well. In our
    predicament it's a matter of trying to keep cool.


    I can relate to that. I remember a few summers here when we sat in the back yard & had very little inclination to do anything else. If it's too cold one can add a layer, but there's only so much one can take off.... :-))



    PQ] [Interesting account of Christmas in Australia deleted
    PQ] because I couldn't condense it & still do it justice]


    Sounds like fun, apart from the heat.... :-)



    Most Aussie familys have similar get-togethers at
    this time of year. Maybe not at home, and most
    certainly not as large.


    Canadians usually gather together with other family members indoors ... but, as you say, the arrangements are flexible. Depending on the size of the family & the space available, friends may also be invited. "Singles" who have no family nearby invite other "singles" to share a Christmas dinner with them. But with the escalation of housing costs folks tend to live in smaller quarters than they once did &/or to see their numbers dwindling as others die off or move away. In any case the idea of eating at a "groaning board" seems important to many people although the diners often play games as well.

    I see an increasing tendency in this area for people who don't have enough space in their homes to accommodate a large party or who, for whatever reasons, want someone else to do the cooking find various ways of solving the problem. Many of the restaurants around here seem to be very busy during the entire month of December... and while the vast majority of them are closed on Christmas Day there are other alternatives. Hotel eateries remain open, some with a buffet at a fairly reasonable price if you shop around & qualify for a senior's discount. I am told that Chinese restaurants often remain open too, and that they are rapidly gaining popularity as a destination of choice. :-)



    It's all about staying cool. Even the food is cool.
    Only the 'snags' (i.e. sausages, for youse northerners)


    Thankyou... I didn't know that. And thankyou for using the correct spelling of "barbecue", which I see with increasing rarity Over Here. People abbreviate it "BBQ" & forget it doesn't have a "Q" when it's written in full.



    and onions are hot, on the barbecue. :)


    In Canada it's about staying warm. By my estimation, at least half the menu items are or can be served hot. And much of the traditional British fare people eat at this time contains ingredients which "keep" well in cooler climates... e.g. flour, butter, sugar, dried fruit. If the proportion of fat &/or carbohydrate seems rather high it probably is. IMHO we're instinctively drawn to food which... as many people discover to their chagrin in January... enables us to add insulation which will then serve as emergency rations until late spring, when the soil has finally warmed up enough to grow veggies. :-)



    Oh. We as a nation have disowned Rolf Harris.


    I realized that might be a sticky wicket. Thanks for the heads up.

    Another BTW: As I conclude the outdoor temperature in Vancouver is about forty degrees... i.e. in Fahrenheit... or +/- five degrees Celcius. It seems quite balmy to me after the ice & snow we experienced last month. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Jan 22 18:05:58 2018
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 01/21/2018 09:06 PM, you wrote:

    [Thank you for your kind words.]

    Another BTW: As I conclude the outdoor temperature in Vancouver is about forty degrees... i.e. in Fahrenheit... or +/- five degrees Celcius. It seems quite balmy to me after the ice & snow we experienced last month. :-))

    FYI. Our overnight minimum never got below 19.5 Celcius. Due to the ceiling fan that has been operating 24/7 for more than 12 days straight, I was once again forced to take refuge under a (very) light blanket to survive the chill.

    OTOH, I had to have my toes peeking out from under the cover. (There's probably a sound physiological reason for that but it escapes me presently.) It just feels good. :-D

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Mon Jan 22 00:36:54 2018
    the outdoor temperature in Vancouver is about forty
    degrees... i.e. in Fahrenheit... or +/- five degrees
    Celcius.


    Celsius. Life was much easier when we spelled it "centigrade". :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Jan 22 18:51:14 2018
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 01/22/2018 12:36 AM, you wrote:

    Celsius. Life was much easier when we spelled it
    "centigrade". :-Q

    My foopas (sic) follows yours. I am easily lead by a smooth talker. ;-D

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Sun Jan 28 00:20:30 2018
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Due to the ceiling fan that has been operating 24/7 for
    more than 12 days straight, I was once again forced to
    take refuge under a (very) light blanket to survive the
    chill.


    We have a ceiling fan which can be set to blow downwards when we need
    some wind chill & upwards when we just need to stir the air a bit. But I think
    one of the reasons weather is such a hot (pun alert!) topic is that, apart from
    meteorology & domestic science, the common use of words like "chill" and "cold"
    is often highly subjective. A lot may depend on what a person is used to... on
    where their ancestors came from... or in your case, how long it takes the house
    to cool off after it's been baking in the sun for +/- fourteen hours.

    I could share a number of amusing tales WRT the subjective angle, and
    I imagine my audience in E_T could too... but I'll limit myself to one incident
    knowing you'll meet the same person again in my next paragraph. She works in a
    local "mixed practice" clinic which various members of our family use from time
    to time. One winter day, when we encountered her on the street, she said to my
    daughter "Aren't you cold? You're not wearing a jacket!"... to which I replied
    "Aren't you cold? You're wearing shorts!" We all laughed about it later. ;-)



    I had to have my toes peeking out from under the cover.
    (There's probably a sound physiological reason for that
    but it escapes me presently.) It just feels good. :-D


    Okay. The gal I mentioned above told me she has a duvet... which our
    relatives from England might call an "eiderdown", but which is more fashionable
    with the younger crowd these days. I'd describe either as a quilt stuffed with
    feathers or a synthetic equivalent thereof. The difference is that while Brits
    use these things along with blankets, the French... who live somewhat closer to
    the Equator... use them instead of upper sheets & blankets. She says that when
    one gets too hot the usual procedure is to stick out a foot or a leg somewhere.
    If it works for you too I won't argue. OTOH, I like to feel a bit of weight on
    my feet (perhaps because that's where my mother usually kept the extra blanket) ... and I'm also reminded of a conversation I overheard in a neighbourhood pub.
    Of four men, two said they prefer their bedding loose & two said they prefer it
    firmly tucked in. As do you I prefer some covering when I'm asleep. And I can
    relate when I hear autistic kids find the weight of bedclothes comforting. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Jan 29 08:25:05 2018
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 01/28/2018 12:20 AM, Ardith Hinton -> Paul Quinn wrote:

    We have a ceiling fan which can be set to blow downwards when we need some wind chill & upwards when we just need to stir the air a
    bit.

    Yes. That's the type. (It's still going, BTW. There's still a couple of months to go till the heat of summer dissipates.) After about 15 year's service, it has developed two speeds: off or fastest and will not operate on two other settings.

    .. and I'm also reminded of a conversation I overheard in a
    neighbourhood pub. Of four men, two said they prefer their bedding loose
    & two said they prefer it firmly tucked in. As do you I prefer some covering when I'm asleep. And I can relate when I hear autistic kids
    find the weight of bedclothes comforting. :-)

    I've known all of those combinations (even military 'tight' makes), and enjoyed
    all. (BTW, my wife was a nurse who was quite proud of her work at making a bed.) But even my earliest childhood memories are peppered by episodes of poking my toes out from under any cover, reinforcing current practice. There again, I used to be tall before I aged. ;-)

    Another BTW: our national Bureau of Meteorology uses Celsius.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Wed Feb 7 15:36:21 2018
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    We have a ceiling fan which can be set to blow
    downwards when we need some wind chill & upwards
    when we just need to stir the air a bit.

    Yes. That's the type. (It's still going, BTW.
    There's still a couple of months to go till the
    heat of summer dissipates.) After about 15 year's
    service, it has developed two speeds: off or fastest
    and will not operate on two other settings.


    Ahh... no wonder you need a blanket! Ours is probably about the same
    age. It makes unhealthy noises from time to time, as if the bearings are about
    to self-destruct, but otherwise it still works more less as advertised.... :-)



    .. and I'm also reminded of a conversation I overheard
    in a neighbourhood pub. Of four men, two said they
    prefer their bedding loose & two said they prefer it
    firmly tucked in. As do you I prefer some covering
    when I'm asleep. And I can relate when I hear autistic
    kids find the weight of bedclothes comforting. :-)

    I've known all of those combinations (even military
    'tight' makes), and enjoyed all. (BTW, my wife was a
    nurse who was quite proud of her work at making a bed.)


    Yes, the guys in the pub specifically mentioned the military/hospital
    style. My mother once said she wanted to be a nurse but was forced to drop out
    of school to help support the family when her father was killed in an accident.
    Although she did her best to instruct me in the art of "hospital corners" and I
    understand the theory, I've never quite been able to pull it off... [wry grin].



    But even my earliest childhood memories are peppered
    by episodes of poking my toes out from under any cover,
    reinforcing current practice.


    Occasionally I'd stick a foot into the tunnel where the upper & lower
    sheets met at one side. I used a WWII military surplus bunk, though, which was
    narrower than the average single bed. I reckon my parents bought it partly for
    economy & partly because it was all they could fit into a very small room. :-)



    There again, I used to be tall before I aged. ;-)


    In my younger years I was evidently taller than average for my age...
    but with geometrically precise corners & with walls on three sides there was no
    way I could have stuck my feet out at the bottom even if I'd wanted to.

    When I'm taking a nap I'll often use a quilt or what my mother called
    an "afghan"... i.e a knitted or crocheted blanket. In general these things are
    not meant to be tucked in. If whichever comes easily to hand isn't long enough
    to cover both my legs & my torso I make sure my feet are covered first.... :-)



    Another BTW: our national Bureau of Meteorology uses
    Celsius.


    So does ours, but I still think in Fahrenheit. Around these parts it
    has an elegant simplicity. The temperature hasn't gone below 5 or above 95 for
    as long as I can remember. I wonder if it's like that in Germany too.... :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Fri Feb 2 21:16:02 2018
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Celsius. Life was much easier when we spelled it
    "centigrade". :-Q

    My foopas (sic) follows yours.


    I reckon you mean "faux pas". In French it means "false step", which
    makes sense if one thinks of ballet dancing. In the fashion world "faux" seems
    to be Newspeak for "fake", as in "faux pearls" or "faux leather". AFAIC a faux
    pas is a simple error which probably doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of
    things. Even English teachers make misteaks (sic). But because I feel it's my
    duty to set a good example I can't forgive myself quite so easily.... :-)



    I am easily lead by a smooth talker. ;-D


    Me, a smooth talker?? Nah. My mistake was in adding a remark at the
    last moment which I hadn't proofread umpteen times & let sit overnight.

    Human beings are social creatures. I find it difficult to resist the
    urge to step off the curb (or kerb, as you prefer) before the traffic light has
    changed when I see someone else doing it.

    BTW... how do Aussies spell "curb"/"kerb"? :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Ardith Hinton on Sat Feb 3 17:40:20 2018
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 02/02/2018 09:16 PM, you wrote:

    Celsius. Life was much easier when we spelled it
    "centigrade". :-Q
    My foopas (sic) follows yours.

    I reckon you mean "faux pas".

    Yes. I was being inventive again. Usually it goes by the alternative 'fox paw', which I'm guessing you would have recognized straight up. I do this when
    I'm too lazy to check with Uncle Google for the genuine French.

    I am easily lead by a smooth talker. ;-D

    Compleat (sic) with another misspelling, later regretted. I've been making quite a few mistakes recently. So many that I can detect Alexander having fits
    of frustration, based on the server's logfile entries.

    Me, a smooth talker?? Nah. My mistake was in adding a
    remark at the last moment which I hadn't proofread umpteen times & let
    sit overnight.

    Ah-huh. I have the t-shirt. My excuse is solitude with infrequent adult conversation, bordering on 'old folks disease'.

    Human beings are social creatures. I find it difficult to resist the urge to step off the curb (or kerb, as you prefer) before the traffic light has changed when I see someone else doing it.

    BTW... how do Aussies spell "curb"/"kerb"? :-)

    Until the turn of the century I always referred to them as 'gutter'. Aren't there both? (Checking Uncle Google... oh, it's the edging. And yes, I was aware of the other meaning.) I'd have said 'curb'. Did I pass? :-D

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Thu Feb 15 12:46:11 2018
    Hi again, Paul! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

    My mistake was in adding a remark at the last moment
    which I hadn't proofread umpteen times & let sit
    overnight.

    Ah-huh. I have the t-shirt. My excuse is solitude
    with infrequent adult conversation, bordering on 'old
    folks disease'.


    IMHO we are entitled to be forgetful at our age. I'm certainly not discounting your concerns... but I understand that human beings start to lose brain cells around the mid-twenties & don't notice until later.

    As we grow older the mental filing cabinet fills up with stuff too, and then it becomes more difficult to retrieve the stuff. I experienced that many years ago when I played Scrabble for the first time. I was a university student majoring in English, whereas my opponent was a high school student in the "low & slow" class. She won by a considerable margin... at least in part because with a more limited vocabulary she could retrieve words more quickly.

    If it takes you awhile to answer because you stopped to look up the spelling of "faux pas", so what? I'll wait. Chances are you'll have to wait while I look up a bunch of half-forgotten stuff nobody has asked me about for umpteen years... and have a wonderful time doing it! Students can definitely help keep your mind in good shape as long as you do your homework.

    Old EdBiz saying: "If you want to learn something, teach it". :-)



    I'd have said 'curb'. Did I pass? :-D


    AFAIC, you did. North Americans spell it the same way. I was just curious because when I was growing up the British spelled it "kerb".... :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384.125 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Feb 16 18:14:04 2018
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 02/15/2018 12:46 PM, Ardith Hinton -> Paul Quinn wrote:

    If it takes you awhile to answer because you stopped to look
    up the spelling of "faux pas", so what? I'll wait.

    Sorry about the delay in replying. We've had a heat wave visit upon our region
    for the last week-10 days, and I haven't been able to concentrate on replies while suffering 32-39C temps with humidity in the order of 60-80%.

    I have to 'fess up and say that I knew the correct spelling all along. I didn't
    use it as I don't like to fling such things in a 'mixed' company of echo participants, knowing that it might distress some folk to look it up. (That worked out well, didn't it.) So I chose a word, albeit concocted for the purpose, to indicate where an intended mistake had been made.

    I'd have said 'curb'. Did I pass? :-D

    AFAIC, you did. North Americans spell it the same way. I was just curious because when I was growing up the British spelled it
    "kerb".... :-))

    Kewl. I don't normally use the word, as it's typical of the 'flashy' English that I've tried to not use in life. (I was 'diagnosed' with an "educated Australian" accent in 7th grade, and my life has been akin to being 'a stranger
    in a strange land' ever since.) As I initially indicated I always used the term gutter for what you might describe otherwise. And then for the other meaning, I might say 'modify'... if it fits the context. :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Paul's Puppy 4.2.1 multiuser vBox - M'boro, Qld, OZ (3:640/384.125)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Wed Feb 28 00:15:40 2018
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    [re "faux pas"]
    I have to 'fess up and say that I knew the correct
    spelling all along. I didn't use it as I don't like
    to fling such things in a 'mixed' company of echo
    participants, knowing that it might distress some folk
    to look it up. (That worked out well, didn't it.)


    One of the challenges of adult ed. is that we do have a very mixed audience, but AFAIK everyone in this echo wants to learn more about English & knows how to read a dictionary. Some folks may find it distressing when they encounter, e.g., non-standard spellings which can't easily be looked up. :-)



    [re "curb"]
    I don't normally use the word, as it's typical of the
    'flashy' English that I've tried to not use in life.


    What's "flashy" about it?? I've noticed various people using this word in exactly the same way regardless of how they spell it. If you weren't clear on the definition, I wonder if you don't see many curbs where you live.


    In my experience places which don't have curbs generally fall into one of three categories:

    * arid & semi-arid regions, where the inhabitants have learned
    that if they can put their lives on hold for twenty minutes a few times a
    year they'll never have to go out in the rain.

    * sparsely populated areas, where it may be a fairly long walk
    from one residence to another & cars may get drowned in the ditches.

    * city neighbourhoods where the residents are unwilling to pay
    for curbs. This may or may not indicate their socioeconomic level. Some
    people "rough it" until the city's engineering department decides to make
    improvements, which in Vancouver at least means everyone shares the cost.
    Others see no need for curbs because they don't walk anywhere. They just
    tell their chauffeur which of umpteen cars they'd like to use today. :-Q



    (I was 'diagnosed' with an "educated Australian" accent
    in 7th grade,


    I don't know who said that... but I see nothing wrong with it. In some situations it could be an asset. You may have found it a liability when you were in grade seven & wanted to "fit in" with other kids, though.... :-(



    my life has been akin to being 'a stranger in a strange
    land' ever since.)


    What am I doing on this strange planet, with these strange people? You're certainly not alone in that. I've heard others say they felt much the same way when they were kids... as did I... and some of us still do.

    Okay, I confess... as a divergent thinker who gave up trying to be like other people in my early teens, I focused on being myself & doing what I was good at. One result was that I found a niche in this echo, e.g., where a person's accent is of little importance but where the insight you gained from being transplanted during your earlier years makes you a valued member of the team. At least four of the Z1 participants here are also transplants. But I depend on you to write coherent sentences in English & translate Aussie. ;-)



    As I initially indicated I always used the term gutter
    for what you might describe otherwise.


    I suppose, technically, the curb is part of the gutter... it's the vertical bit which helps direct road runoff into the storm sewer & prevent it from flooding the sidewalk. At one time the horizontal & vertical bits would have been constructed separately using whatever materials were available. In the Vancouver area they're generally made of preshaped concrete nowadays.

    I make you think & you make me think. Seems fair to me... [grin].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Fri Mar 2 18:00:57 2018
    Hi again, Alexander! In the first paragraph of my previous message I
    meant to say, WRT to the inclusion of the hyphen, "that may or may *not* be the
    case in British or Australian English nowadays." My copy of the OED spells the
    word "southwest" with a hyphen, but I must admit it is forty years old.... ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Michael Dukelsky on Sun Nov 4 23:56:43 2018
    Hi again, Michael! It seems my previous reply to you scanned out while I was making a last-minute correction. The first bit should have said:

    Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)


    The author put these words in alphabetical order. So would I. I've
    noticed people using "actor" in reference to both at times and I could write an
    essay on the subject, but I'll leave it at that for now.... ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Michael Dukelsky@2:5020/1042 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Nov 5 13:48:32 2018
    Hello Ardith,

    Sunday November 04 2018, Ardith Hinton wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

    Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)
    The author put these words in alphabetical order. So would
    I. I've noticed people using "actor" in reference to both at times
    and I could write an essay on the subject, but I'll leave it at that
    for now.... ;-)

    I am looking forward to reading your essay. :)

    Michael

    ... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Michael Dukelsky on Thu Nov 22 23:56:09 2018
    Hi, Michael! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)

    The author put these words in alphabetical order. So
    would I. I've noticed people using "actor" in reference
    to both at times and I could write an essay on the
    subject, but I'll leave it at that for now.... ;-)

    I am looking forward to reading your essay. :)


    On one hand I'm thinking "Me & my big mouth!"... on the other I know
    I'll have a great time organizing my thoughts about various things I've learned
    over the years because one of my correspondents has expressed an interest. ;-)

    Until the 1960's, schoolteachers used formal grammar... and expected
    their students to do likewise. My grade two teacher, e.g., insisted we speak &
    write in complete sentences at all times. She'd repeat "have you not" until we
    figured out for ourselves that she meant "haven't you" because... as I now know ... contractions aren't used either in formal English or in literature intended
    for beginning readers. In those days no explanation was offered, however. The
    way many Authority Figures dealt with colloquial English was to ignore whatever
    they didn't approve of... and from that standpoint I appreciate the descriptive
    approach taken by modern dictionaries, in which they report what people say but
    include flags like "colloq." or "coarse slang" or "[Aus./Cdn./UK/US]" so we can
    make our own choices as to what works best in a particular situation.

    You may have seen jokes elsewhere of a type I'd describe as "gallows
    humour" from senior citizens about how, if one didn't say "Miss Stickler, may I
    please go to the lavatory?" one would be completely ignored or be forced to sit
    through a lecture on the difference between "can" & "may" or wait until recess.

    When our daughter went to the same school I noticed the sign "GIRLS'
    LAVATORY" had been truncated to "GIRLS". In many ways that makes more sense to
    me than pictures which could be interpreted as meaning "males wearing kilts" or
    "females wearing trousers". In the sink-or-swim environment of my childhood, I
    learned a lot about English which I didn't fully appreciate back then.... :-))

    Things began to change during the 1960's. People questioned many of
    the rules they'd grown up with... one being the use of the masculine pronoun in
    situations where the gender of any individual may not be obvious. According to
    the rules of formal grammar "each student should bring his own pencil" is quite
    correct, unless all of the students are female. Some women didn't like that...
    they felt they were being ignored, especially when the word "man" was also used
    to refer to human beings in general. I thought it was silly that if I had just
    one male student in a class of forty I was required to say "his", although when
    I read professional literature I noticed that nurses & elementary teachers were
    referred to as if they were invariably female. For many people nowadays it's a
    lot easier to use the plural pronoun regardless of the actual gender or number.

    Re occupational titles people can no longer take it for granted that
    firemen & mailmen are male... so they are called fire fighters & mail carriers.
    The majority of such titles appear to be gender-neutral even if they weren't in
    the past. There are still exceptions, though. While waiters & waitresses have
    been replaced by servers it would not be safe to assume a governess is a female
    governor... and I must admit to some puzzlement over the increasing tendency to
    refer to both actors & actresses as actors because I would imagine their gender
    is a legitimate job requirement if e.g. the casting director wants somebody who
    can handle the role of Prince Charming or Snow White in a live-action film. In
    animated films I can see from the credits that males play female roles at times
    & vice versa... but I probably wouldn't know otherwise. If what matters is the
    sound of their voice rather than their physical appearance I can think of other
    situations like that too. But when Meryrl Streep describes herself as an actor
    I'm not sure I understand her line of reasoning. I guess she likes the idea of
    a unisex job description & I'm not averse to it myself. OTOH, she's old enough
    to remember when some feminists would have been outraged about her choice. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Michael Dukelsky@2:5020/1042 to Ardith Hinton on Sat Nov 24 20:48:18 2018
    Hello Ardith,

    Thursday November 22 2018, Ardith Hinton wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

    Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)

    The author put these words in alphabetical order. So
    would I. I've noticed people using "actor" in reference
    to both at times and I could write an essay on the
    subject, but I'll leave it at that for now.... ;-)

    I am looking forward to reading your essay. :)

    On one hand I'm thinking "Me & my big mouth!"... on the
    other I know I'll have a great time organizing my thoughts about
    various things I've learned over the years because one of my correspondents has expressed an interest. ;-)

    It is good you've made a decision to share your thoughts with us.

    Until the 1960's, schoolteachers used formal grammar... and expected their students to do likewise. My grade two teacher, e.g., insisted we speak & write in complete sentences at all times. She'd repeat "have you not" until we figured out for ourselves that she
    meant "haven't you" because... as I now know
    ... contractions aren't used either in formal English or in literature intended for beginning readers. In those days no explanation was
    offered, however. The way many Authority Figures dealt with
    colloquial English was to ignore whatever they didn't approve of...
    and from that standpoint I appreciate the descriptive approach taken
    by modern dictionaries, in which they report what people say but
    include flags like "colloq." or "coarse slang" or "[Aus./Cdn./UK/US]"
    so we can make our own choices as to what works best in a particular situation.

    You may have seen jokes elsewhere of a type I'd describe as "gallows humour" from senior citizens about how, if one didn't say

    What is gallows here? Is it vicious, perverse, wicked or is it a gibbet, derrick?

    "Miss Stickler, may I please go to the lavatory?" one would be
    completely ignored or be forced to sit through a lecture on the
    difference between "can" & "may" or wait until recess.

    Hm-m-m... For me it is a strange joke, it is not funny at all.

    When our daughter went to the same school I noticed the
    sign "GIRLS' LAVATORY" had been truncated to "GIRLS". In many ways
    that makes more sense to me than pictures which could be interpreted
    as meaning "males wearing kilts" or "females wearing trousers". In
    the sink-or-swim environment of my childhood, I learned a lot about English which I didn't fully appreciate back then.... :-))

    I understand you mean that girls' feelings were neglected. But saying of sink-or-swim environment in general. It may be cruel, but it prepares a young person to a real life, doesn't it? It is interesting to hear what this environment manifested in? Has anything changed since then?

    Things began to change during the 1960's. People
    questioned many of the rules they'd grown up with... one being the use
    of the masculine pronoun in situations where the gender of any
    individual may not be obvious. According to the rules of formal
    grammar "each student should bring his own pencil" is quite correct, unless all of the students are female. Some women didn't like that... they felt they were being ignored, especially when the word "man" was
    also used to refer to human beings in general. I thought it was silly that if I had just one male student in a class of forty I was required
    to say "his", although when I read professional literature I noticed
    that nurses & elementary teachers were referred to as if they were invariably female. For many people nowadays it's a lot easier to use
    the plural pronoun regardless of the actual gender or number.

    Re occupational titles people can no longer take it for
    granted that firemen & mailmen are male... so they are called fire fighters & mail carriers.

    Well, it is maybe OK with mail carriers, but firemen have very physically hard and dangerous work. Do you think it is good when women want to do a physically hard work?

    The majority of such titles appear to be
    gender-neutral even if they weren't in the past. There are still exceptions, though. While waiters & waitresses have been replaced by servers it would not be safe to assume a governess is a female
    governor...

    In Russian a governess is rather a governor's wife.

    and I must admit to some puzzlement over the increasing
    tendency to refer to both actors & actresses as actors because I would imagine their gender is a legitimate job requirement if e.g. the
    casting director wants somebody who can handle the role of Prince
    Charming or Snow White in a live-action film. In animated films I can
    see from the credits that males play female roles at times & vice
    versa... but I probably wouldn't know otherwise. If what matters is
    the sound of their voice rather than their physical appearance I can
    think of other situations like that too. But when Meryrl Streep
    describes herself as an actor I'm not sure I understand her line of reasoning. I guess she likes the idea of a unisex job description &
    I'm not averse to it myself. OTOH, she's old enough to remember when
    some feminists would have been outraged about her choice. :-)

    Here the society is more conservative and we have no such changes in the language yet. They are still ahead, but I think such changes are inevitable. On
    the other hand one can never say how much time must pass before the changes start. When I was young it seemed that "socialism" we had here was forever. But
    it unexpectedly crashed. So maybe the changes in the language you talked about may also come to us much earlier than somebody may imagine.

    Michael

    ... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Michael Dukelsky on Mon Dec 24 13:12:25 2018
    Hi, Michael! Awhile ago you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    You may have seen jokes elsewhere of a type I'd describe
    as "gallows humour" from senior citizens about how, if
    one didn't say

    What is gallows here? Is it vicious, perverse, wicked or
    is it a gibbet, derrick?


    Literally, "gallows" is synonymous with "gibbet"... a structure where
    people are "hanged by the neck until dead". A "derrick", AKA a "crane" in this
    part of the world, is used for lifting heavy (non-human) physical objects.

    The term "gallows humour" is a metaphor. It refers to a satirical or
    ironic commentary about matters which are/were frightening or painful for those
    directly involved. I guess one could call it "perverse" in the sense that it's
    a deliberate & often rather mischievous departure from convention.



    "Miss Stickler, may I please go to the lavatory?" one would
    be completely ignored or be forced to sit through a lecture

    Hm-m-m... For me it is a strange joke, it is not funny at all.


    Not to worry! AFAIC you've identified another distinguishing feature ... very few people find this sort of joke amusing unless they've had a similar
    experience. It's not funny when you're in grade one or two & the teacher has a
    polysyllabic British name you've never heard before & s/he expects you to speak
    in a dialect nobody else around you uses. I think there are folks here who can
    probably relate because their parents... like mine... came from SomePlace Else.
    When the wounds aren't so fresh, one sees from a different perspective.... :-)



    When our daughter went to the same school I noticed the sign
    "GIRLS' LAVATORY" had been truncated to "GIRLS" [...].

    I understand you mean that girls' feelings were neglected.


    What I was thinking of was the sort of situation where one may not be
    taught how to read words such as "lavatory" (which has never been in common use
    around these parts during my lifetime although it may have been at the time the
    school was built) or how to interpret various symbols. I can't say for certain
    what happened in the boys' basement because as females our daughter & I weren't
    allowed to set foot there... but I reckon that when the school began to include
    kindergarten together with many students who weren't native speakers of English
    somebody realized it might be a good idea to update the signs for both genders.

    While some women may have felt neglected or ignored by formal English
    years ago there were probably male nurses & elementary school teachers who felt
    the same way. The wording in the professional literature has changed now... so
    one may see masculine & feminine pronouns used in alternate chapters. People's
    attitudes don't always change in response to changes in the language, though...
    or if they do the changes tend to occur more slowly.



    it prepares a young person to a real life, doesn't it? It is
    interesting to hear what this environment manifested in?


    In other echoes, it is often said that whatever doesn't kill us makes
    us stronger. I survived... I developed an "ear" for some of the fine points of
    the language which others might miss... and eventually I began to realize I was
    fairly proficient in English & enjoyed teaching it. :-)



    While waiters & waitresses have been replaced by servers
    it would not be safe to assume a governess is a female
    governor...

    In Russian a governess is rather a governor's wife.


    Ah... just as a princess might be the wife of a prince. In English a
    governess is a woman employed to teach other people's children at home.... :-)



    Here the society is more conservative and we have no such
    changes in the language yet. They are still ahead, but I
    think such changes are inevitable.


    Language is always growing & changing. But in a conservative society
    folks may be less easily persuaded to hurry things along.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Michael Dukelsky on Sun Dec 30 12:42:12 2018
    Michael Dukelsky to Ardith Hinton:

    "Miss Stickler, may I please go to the lavatory?" one
    would be completely ignored or be forced to sit through
    a lecture on the difference between "can" & "may" or
    wait until recess.

    Hm-m-m... For me it is a strange joke, it is not funny
    at all.

    But "may" is the right word to ask permission. I remeber
    these anecdotes:

    -- Miss Stickler, can I open the window?
    -- You certainly can, but you may not.

    -- Can you pass the salt?
    -- Yes.
    -- Can you pass the salt?
    -- Yes.
    -- Can you pass the salt?
    -- Yes.

    In Russian a governess is rather a governor's wife.

    In Russian:
    губернаторша (gubernatorsha) -- governor's wife
    гувернантка (guvernantka) -- governess
    -- of which neither is a Russian word :-)

    ---
    * Origin: *** nntp://fidonews.mine.nu *** Finland *** (2:221/6.0)