• Cough

    From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to All on Sun Jul 30 04:43:27 2017
    Hi, All!

    A girl-seller sits behind the counter in a shop, reads a book and doesn't watch
    around. I need to attract her attention and I cough two times.

    In what way can I describe my coughing if I compose a written story? ;)

    Bye, All
    Alexander Koryagin

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Jul 31 10:34:00 2017
    Hi! Alexander,

    No one else has had a go at replying? It's a simple question, Alexander, but not one with an easy answer...

    In a message to All you wrote:

    A girl-seller sits behind the counter in a shop, reads a
    book and doesn't watch around. I need to attract her
    attention and I cough two times.

    As an aside, we may call her a 'shop assistant' amongst other job titles. Also
    that her attention waivered in favour of her reading, amongst other descriptions of her inattentiveness (is that a word?).

    In what way can I describe my coughing if I compose a
    written story? ;)

    Ahmm... I want to call it an 'interjection', though strictly-speaking it isn't.
    'Inter-' usually means to put something in between some something elses but in
    this case... a cough is a cough, all by itself.

    Perhaps Ardith may have more accurate thoughts on the matter... mmm, I'm hoping
    so. :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Paul Quinn on Tue Aug 1 04:10:47 2017
    Hi, Paul Quinn!
    I read your message from 31.07.2017 02:34


    No one else has had a go at replying? It's a simple question,
    Alexander, but not one with an easy answer...

    It was difficult compose a short story either. ;) A real situation took more time to be described.

    A girl-seller sits behind the counter in a shop, reads a book and
    doesn't watch around. I need to attract her attention and I cough
    two times.
    As an aside, we may call her a 'shop assistant' amongst other job
    titles. Also that her attention waivered in favour of her reading,
    amongst other descriptions of her inattentiveness (is that a
    word?).

    Let it be a girl, a shop-assistant.

    In what way can I describe my coughing if I compose a written
    story?

    Ahmm... I want to call it an 'interjection', though strictly-
    speaking it isn't. 'Inter-' usually means to put something in
    between some something elses but in this case... a cough is a
    cough, all by itself.

    Well, suppose it is a film script. Maybe this way:

    --------------
    A hot, stuffy day. The shop has already opened. Mr Woulf enters the shop and behind the counter he sees a girl shop-assistant, reading a book and chewing loudly an apple.

    Mr Woulf: "Kaff-Kaff!"
    The girl (nearly repeating Mr Woulf coughing, chocking down a big peace of the apple): Sorry, Sir, can I help you?"
    --------------

    Perhaps Ardith may have more accurate thoughts on the matter...
    mmm, I'm hoping so.


    PS: Or it can be the subject of a letter, written to a friend, after a long pause.

    Bye, Paul!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to alexander koryagin on Tue Aug 1 08:51:08 2017
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 08/01/2017 03:10 AM, you wrote:

    Well, suppose it is a film script. Maybe this way:

    --------------

    Ooh, I have seen this flick: the girl is from an Italian family, with long-ish dark curly hair done 'up' at the back, with overdone makeup & lipstick, and, large glasses. Mr Woulf has arrived by taxi, which is now waiting for him at the curbside as he enters the shop. (He is actually on his way to the airport but felt the need for an apple.) A sudden craving for an apple has overtaken him. He does not yet know that the last apple in the shop is no longer available for sale.

    Now Mr Woulf is confronted with an inattentive sales assistant, engrossed in her reading of a cheap romance novel. What to do? He will have to interrupt the girl with a cough. Perhaps two coughs. So, he interjects the silence by commencing a coughing attack...

    That idea works for me, Alexander. 8-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

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    * Origin: Quinn's Rock vBox - sunny side up on the bookcase (3:640/1384)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Paul Quinn on Mon Jul 31 19:58:56 2017
    On 2017 Aug 01 08:51:08, you wrote to alexander koryagin:

    Now Mr Woulf is confronted with an inattentive sales assistant,
    engrossed in her reading of a cheap romance novel. What to do? He
    will have to interrupt the girl with a cough. Perhaps two coughs. So,
    he interjects the silence by commencing a coughing attack...

    coughing, clearing one's throat or simple "ahem" ;)

    That idea works for me, Alexander. 8-)

    me^2

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... A Bachelor likes his girl friend just the way she is... single!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Mon Jul 31 23:12:07 2017
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    A girl-seller sits behind the counter in a shop, reads
    a book and doesn't watch around. I need to attract her
    attention and I cough two times.

    In what way can I describe my coughing if I compose a
    written story?


    I'll have more to say later, but here's the simple answer:


    Narrative

    I cleared my throat.
    I coughed gently/politely.
    I uttered a gentle/polite cough.


    Dialogue

    I said, "Ahem!"
    "Ahem!" I interrupted.


    In the above examples "ahem" is an onomatopoeic word, a conventional way of recording the sound in print. In real life the sound may vary.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Paul Quinn on Tue Aug 1 20:26:57 2017
    Hi, Paul Quinn!
    I read your message from 01.08.2017 01:51

    Well, suppose it is a film script. Maybe this way:
    --------------
    Ooh, I have seen this flick: the girl is from an Italian family,
    with long-ish dark curly hair done 'up' at the back, with overdone
    makeup & lipstick, and, large glasses. Mr Woulf has arrived by
    taxi, which is now waiting for him at the curbside as he enters the
    shop. (He is actually on his way to the airport but felt the need
    for an apple.) A sudden craving for an apple has overtaken him. He
    does not yet know that the last apple in the shop is no longer
    available for sale.

    No, he wanted just to buy a bottle of Cola. ;) But he needed to declare his presence.

    Now Mr Woulf is confronted with an inattentive sales assistant,
    engrossed in her reading of a cheap romance novel. What to do? He
    will have to interrupt the girl with a cough. Perhaps two coughs.
    So, he interjects the silence by commencing a coughing attack...

    Why "coughing attack"? It was a safe, artificial double coughing. He could have
    said "Hello?" or "Knock-knock!", but he attracted the girl's attention in other way.

    Bye, Paul!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/384 to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Aug 1 21:13:00 2017
    Hi! Alexander,

    On Tue, 01 Aug 17, you wrote to me:

    He does not yet know that the last apple in the shop is
    no longer available for sale.

    No, he wanted just to buy a bottle of Cola. ;) But he
    needed to declare his presence.

    It is a subtle joke, to twist the crux of the plot slightly by using the apple as a point of contention (untold at that stage), later in the encounter. :)

    So, he interjects the silence by commencing a coughing
    attack...

    Why "coughing attack"? It was a safe, artificial double
    coughing. He could have said "Hello?" or "Knock-knock!",
    but he attracted the girl's attention in other way.

    Yes. My whole rendition of the tale contains a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour.
    It's not readily apparent to a non-native speaker. I had a compulsion to have a bit of fun with your outline. I'm sorry for mangling it. Guilty as charged,
    I am. Smack me.

    Most shops at least have a dangling bell on the door, or a buzzer perhaps, that
    ring or chime when it may be opened. Something of that nature would have saved
    his throat and composure. ;-)

    P.S. You have seen Ardith's reply? I'm afraid I don't have enough marbles to fill my mouth with, in order to pronounce such a compound Greek word. Shocking! 8-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Mon Aug 7 23:40:00 2017
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    No one else has had a go at replying? It's a simple
    question, Alexander, but not one with an easy answer...


    I often find the same thing when I ask computer techie questions... [chuckle]. I interpreted Alexander's question to mean "How do you write down the sound of a cough in English?" after noticing as a student that people may represent sound effects differently in different languages. I guess you were thinking more along the lines of "What's the grammatical term for things like this?" and making corrections, since both are common in the E_T echo.... :-)



    A girl-seller sits behind the counter in a shop, reads
    a book and doesn't watch around. I need to attract her
    attention and I cough two times.

    As an aside, we may call her a 'shop assistant' amongst
    other job titles.


    Yes. Assuming she's an employee, folks here on the Wet Coast would probably say "sales clerk" or "cashier". In many ways, however, I prefer the [esp. UK] term "shop assistant" because it's more general. If I need help in some emporium or other I ask the first human being I can find who seems to be working (?) there regardless of their formal title &/or job description. :-)



    Also that her attention waivered


    I think you meant "wavered". A waiver (n.) is a piece of paper you may be expected to sign if you're involved in some sports activity or other & the organizers want you to promise not to sue them if you're injured. They'd like you to waive (v.), i.e. give up, your legal rights in that case.... ;-)



    in favour of her reading, amongst other descriptions
    of her inattentiveness (is that a word?).


    It's listed in both of my Canadian dictionaries.... :-)



    In what way can I describe my coughing if I compose a
    written story? ;)

    Ahmm... I want to call it an 'interjection', though
    strictly-speaking it isn't.


    IMHO you were right the first time. Hold that thought.... :-))

    An "interjection" (AKA an "ejaculation" unless there are a bunch of grade ten boys in the back row) is for our purposes defined as an exclamation which has no grammatical link with what precedes or follows it.

    Most interjections are spontaneous expressions of surprise, dismay, &/or some other feeling(s). Whether you'd say "Ouch!" or swear a mighty oath when you accidentally hammer your thumb, the general principle is the same... you'd stop to assess the damage before continuing with your work. "Hey!" and "Ahem!" may also be used to attract attention by interrupting what others are doing. I regard the cough in Alexander's story as such an interruption. :-)



    'Inter-' usually means to put something in between


    So far, so good. As to the rest... all dictionaries classify words according to the traditional eight parts of speech. Some folks prefer to add one or two nowadays, but the interjection was #8 when you & I went to school. The examples I cited above... with the exception of whatever Aussies say when they find some part of their anatomy on a collision course with some physical object which may cause grievous bodily harm... are listed in the dictionaries (plural) which a retired teacher from BC might still keep close to hand. :-)



    Perhaps Ardith may have more accurate thoughts on the
    matter... mmm, I'm hoping so. :)


    I take that as a compliment. OTOH you've also brought up some good points which I consider highly relevant here & for which I thank you.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Aug 8 17:53:16 2017
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 08/07/2017 11:40 PM, you wrote:

    I guess you were thinking more along the lines of "What's the
    grammatical term for things like this?" and making corrections, since
    both are common in the E_T echo.... :-)

    Yes, I had no idea of how to correctly classify the usage.

    As an aside, we may call her a 'shop assistant' amongst
    other job titles.

    Yes. Assuming she's an employee, folks here on the Wet Coast would probably say "sales clerk" or "cashier". In many ways, however, I
    prefer the [esp. UK] term "shop assistant" because it's more general.
    If I need help in some emporium or other I ask the first human being
    I can find who seems to be working (?) there regardless of their
    formal title &/or job description. :-)

    :)

    Also that her attention waivered

    I think you meant "wavered". A waiver (n.) is a piece of paper you
    may be expected to sign if you're involved in some sports activity or
    other & the organizers want you to promise not to sue them if you're injured. They'd like you to waive (v.), i.e. give up, your legal
    rights in that case.... ;-)

    Bugger. Yes. That discovery hurts. I can only blame my exposure to 25+ years
    of international BBS mail authors' errors, excluding yourself, naturally. Thank you.

    Perhaps Ardith may have more accurate thoughts on the
    matter... mmm, I'm hoping so. :)

    I take that as a compliment. OTOH you've also brought up some good
    points which I consider highly relevant here & for which I thank
    you.... :-)

    Yes. Thank you, once more.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

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    * Origin: Quinn's Rock vBox - sunny side up on the bookcase (3:640/1384)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Paul Quinn on Wed Aug 9 02:27:40 2017
    Hi, Paul Quinn!
    I read your message from 01.08.2017 13:13

    Why "coughing attack"? It was a safe, artificial double
    coughing. He could have said "Hello?" or "Knock-knock!",
    but he attracted the girl's attention in other way.

    Yes. My whole rendition of the tale contains a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour. It's not readily apparent to a non-native speaker. I had a compulsion to have a bit of fun with your outline. I'm sorry for
    mangling it. Guilty as charged, I am. Smack me.

    Maybe I was tired and mu sense of humor was dull. ;)

    P.S. You have seen Ardith's reply? I'm afraid I don't have enough marbles to fill my mouth with, in order to pronounce such a compound
    Greek word. Shocking! 8-)

    What word did you mean? "Ahem"?


    Bye, Paul!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to alexander koryagin on Wed Aug 9 08:02:54 2017
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 08/09/2017 01:27 AM, alexander koryagin -> Paul Quinn wrote:

    I had a compulsion to have a bit of fun with your outline.
    I'm sorry for mangling it. Guilty as charged, I am. Smack me.

    Maybe I was tired and mu sense of humor was dull. ;)

    Not at all. There's no getting around my ineptitude. I am not a writer. Just
    a failed student, in fact.

    P.S. You have seen Ardith's reply? I'm afraid I don't have enough
    marbles to fill my mouth with, in order to pronounce such a compound
    Greek word. Shocking! 8-)

    What word did you mean? "Ahem"?

    It was onomatopoeic. I meant to convey to you that it defies pronunciation by this native English speaker. May you have good luck with it, and a better outcome than I. :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock vBox - sunny side up on the bookcase (3:640/1384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Sat Aug 12 23:56:13 2017
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    I had a compulsion to have a bit of fun with your outline.
    I'm sorry for mangling it. Guilty as charged, I am.


    Hey, there's a good example of an uncommon but quite correct turn of
    phrase. I think you know far more about English than you think you do.... :-)



    Maybe I was tired and mu sense of humor was dull. ;)


    Wrong mental gear? AFAIC that's not uncommon. Here we are, talking
    seriously about English language & literature... and somebody slips in a little
    joke. I often wonder how many readers pick up on mine... [grin].



    Not at all. There's no getting around my ineptitude.
    I am not a writer. Just a failed student, in fact.


    Hmm. It seems to me that in the course of your police work you must
    have been called upon to make sense of eyewitness reports & write them down, in
    much the same way as I deciphered grade eight English papers. I don't see your
    chosen career as very different from mine in that regard... particularly if one
    takes into account "kid-wrangling", as folks in the movie biz describe it. You
    may not see yourself as a writer, but I think you have a lot of related skills.

    WRT your fate at the hands of Miss Stickler, when you moved from one
    English-speaking country to another, I could tell a lot of stories. Awhile ago
    I alluded to a Canadian whose instructor at a US university didn't like the way
    she spelled certain words. She later became a university instructor herself...
    and co-authored a grammar text which I still refer to from time to time. I had
    similar experiences because my parents relocated to Vancouver when I was a babe
    in arms. It's often said that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.... :-))



    I'm afraid I don't have enough marbles to fill my mouth
    with, in order to pronounce such a compound Greek word.


    But you're not losing your marbles. That's what matters to me. ;-)



    What word did you mean? "Ahem"?

    It was onomatopoeic. I meant to convey to you that it
    defies pronunciation by this native English speaker.


    Ah... if that's the problem, maybe I can help.


    onomatopoeia (n.) ON oh MAT oh PEE + the sound of the final
    "a" in banana, Obama, and Canada

    onomatopoeic (adj.) ON oh MAT oh PEE + ick


    So far I've just been "sounding it out" slowly. I can hear you protesting that
    you didn't ask for one of those do-it-yourself face lift exercises... and I can
    well imagine others protesting that we don't enunciate the "oh" or the "a" very
    clearly when we're comfortable enough with the word to speed it up. The latter
    may describe the vowel sound there as a "schwa", and most dictionaries will use
    an upside-down "e" to represent it. That's right, folks... in English we get a
    bit lazy about the pronunciation of vowels on unstressed syllables. No special
    equipment needed & no undue cause for alarm WRT what Miss Stickler thinks. :-)


    In written English vowel combinations like the above are quite rare.
    I'm sure you don't miss a beat if you see words like "furious" or "courageous",
    however, because you know "ou" represents a single vowel sound... and since you
    live in Australia, I imagine you are familiar with [esp. UK] spellings of words
    such as "encyclopaedia", "gynaecology", "diarrhoea", and "foetid". The "a" and
    "e" or "o" and "e" were smushed together in these words years ago, so one could
    easily figure out that they represented a single sound. As a student I learned
    to duplicate the effect on a manual typewriter with some clever half-spacing...
    but, like you, I've been involved in Fidonet for +/- 25 years and that's not an
    option here. The problem I have with these words nowadays is typing the vowels
    correctly, although I was once rather good at spelling... [wry grin]. WRT your
    comments, I recognize words in print which I've never heard anybody say aloud &
    I imagine many of our friends from SomePlace Else are in the same boat.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ardith Hinton on Sun Aug 13 19:11:11 2017
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 08/12/2017 11:56 PM, you wrote:

    Thank you for all of your kind remarks.

    I recognize words in print which I've never heard anybody say aloud &
    I imagine many of our friends from SomePlace Else are in the same
    boat.... :-)

    WRT my scribbles on onomatopoeic, I had the distinct impresson that Alexander would have had no trouble coming up with a close approximation of its pronunciation. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock vBox - sunny side up on the bookcase (3:640/1384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Mon Aug 14 17:20:09 2017
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Paul Quinn:

    It's a simple question, Alexander, but not one
    with an easy answer...

    It was difficult compose a short story either. ;)
    A real situation took more time to be described.


    Are you saying that although it's not difficult for you to compose a
    short work of fiction, you understand it may take longer for others to write an
    intelligent response... or are you saying your story about "Mr Woulf" is true &
    therefore you're trying to report as accurately as possible what happened?

    One reason I'm asking is that the spelling of this individual's name
    strikes me as rather unusual. If that is indeed his name, I won't argue. Over
    the years I've met a lot of people who insist their name is pronounced "Smith",
    e.g., while they spell it "Smythe" & other folks who spell their names the same
    way pronounce it differently. OTOH if you're transliterating a Russian surname
    which sounds like "wolf" (canis lupus) or if you want a pseudonym which looks &
    sounds like English I'd suggest "Wolfe" or "Woolf", both of which are listed in
    the Metro Vancouver telephone directory & both of which I've seen elsewhere.



    A girl-seller sits behind the counter in a shop,
    reads a book and doesn't watch around.


    I'd say "looks around" (intransitive verb + adverb) there. If she'd
    been aware that there was some action going on she might have watched it... but
    she was so engrossed in her book that she didn't notice what was going on. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Aug 21 17:48:41 2017
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 14.08.2017 09:20
    about Cough.

    It's a simple question, Alexander, but not one with an easy
    answer...
    It was difficult compose a short story either. ;) A real situation
    took more time to be described.

    Are you saying that although it's not difficult for you to compose
    a short work of fiction, you understand it may take longer for
    others to write an intelligent response... or are you saying your
    story about "Mr Woulf" is true & therefore you're trying to report
    as accurately as possible what happened?

    I wanted to write "A real situation would have taken more time to be explained." So I tried to invent a more simple situation where I could ask my question. The question about the sound of coughing in a written story. You told
    about "Ahem, Ahem!" But suppose I describe a goose who had caught cold. Will you still use "Ahem, Ahem" describing his coughing? In Russia we feel more free
    on this account. We can write: "Gkhe, Gkhe!", cried the sick goose.

    One reason I'm asking is that the spelling of this individual's
    name strikes me as rather unusual. If that is indeed his name, I
    won't argue.

    It was just a name.

    Over the years I've met a lot of people who insist their name is pronounced "Smith", e.g., while they spell it "Smythe" & other
    folks who spell their names the same way pronounce it differently.
    OTOH if you're transliterating a Russian surname which sounds
    like "wolf" (canis lupus) or if you want a pseudonym which looks &
    sounds like English I'd suggest "Wolfe" or "Woolf", both of which
    are listed in the Metro Vancouver telephone directory & both of
    which I've seen elsewhere.

    Do you mean that the first name always should mean something? The word can we taken from another language and not necessary means anything for an English speaker. A person can choose a rare name to be unique, for instance. You can probably find many thousands of Woolfs, but Mr Woulf can be unique, and in this
    case his story will be the first line returned by a Google search. ;-)

    A girl-seller sits behind the counter in a shop, reads a book and
    doesn't watch around.

    I'd say "looks around" (intransitive verb + adverb) there. If she'd
    been aware that there was some action going on she might have
    watched it... but she was so engrossed in her book that she didn't
    notice what was going on. :-)

    Yes.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Wed Aug 30 23:16:35 2017
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    A real situation took more time to be described.

    [...]

    I wanted to write "A real situation would have taken
    more time to be explained."


    Ah, yes... "would have taken" makes the meaning more clear.



    So I tried to invent a more simple situation where I could
    ask my question. The question about the sound of coughing
    in a written story.


    That was what I thought at first, but then I wasn't sure.... :-)



    You told about "Ahem, Ahem!"


    In English it is a traditional way of writing about a throat-clearing
    sound or gentle cough, often (but not always) used to interrupt shop assistants
    reading books &/or restaurant employees chatting with their co-workers.... ;-)



    But suppose I describe a goose who had caught cold.
    Will you still use "Ahem, Ahem" describing his coughing?


    Beats me... I've never heard a goose coughing. I have heard roosters
    crowing, and where I come from they don't say "cock-a-doodle-doo" like the ones
    in children's story books. I have heard owls say "too-whit-too-whoo", like the
    ones in these books, but different types of owls make different sounds.... :-)



    In Russia we feel more free on this account. We can
    write: "Gkhe, Gkhe!", cried the sick goose.


    I don't know of an English equivalent, but I think I understand.

    In a brief episode of little importance I overheard myself doing that
    just yesterday when I had a "tickly cough". I can't help wondering, though, if
    it's a conventional spelling (as in the above examples) or whether Alexander is
    reporting what he heard... or both. I discovered, as a student of French, that
    one's perception of a sound may depend on what language one grew up with. It's
    not just animal sounds which differ. A cartoon fight in North American English
    often includes sound effects like "crash", "bam", "biff", "sock", and "pow". I
    don't remember exactly what the French say, but that's not how they do it.

    Now, as to "Mr Woulf" and the sound of his cough... I assume he is in
    good health unless you tell us otherwise. Whether an "ahem" is real or fake it
    suggests, at worst, a minor affliction. If he had e.g. bronchitis or pneumonia
    or tuberculosis I'd expect his cough to sound very different. If what he wants
    to do is get somebody else to notice his presence it might be counterproductive
    if s/he thinks s/he's in danger of catching some dread disease... so I wouldn't
    recommend he go on at length. But these are your characters & your story. The
    shop assistant might well be reading a cheap thriller or romance novel... OTOH,
    she might well be an impecunious student cramming for a test the next day. :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Wed Aug 30 23:56:17 2017
    Hi again, Alexander! This is a continuation of my previous message to you:

    Do you mean that the first name always should mean something?


    No, just that I wasn't sure whether or not it was important to you to
    choose a surname which would blend in among native speakers of English.... :-)



    The word can we taken from another language and not necessary
    means anything for an English speaker.


    AFAIK all names originally meant something in some language or other.
    The meaning may have been lost to living memory &/or a name spelled differently
    from time to time & place to place. But we have "name dictionaries" in English
    for the edification of prospective parents & nerds such as Yours Truly.... ;-)



    A person can choose a rare name to be unique, for instance.


    Indeed. My mother was supposedly named after her grandmothers... one
    of whom was a stickler for detail & didn't appreciate the compliment because of
    a letter her parents changed to make the names fit together. She then tried to
    avoid a repetition of the error by giving me a rather unusual name which nobody
    else in the family already had. As a child I found it awkward sometimes, but I
    did gain some valuable insights into preferred reasoning styles & whatnot. :-)



    You can probably find many thousands of Woolfs, but Mr
    Woulf can be unique, and in this case his story will
    be the first line returned by a Google search. ;-)


    I hear you. If I can find dozens of Woolfs in Vancouver alone, there
    might well be thousands world-wide. If you come up with a spelling which isn't
    in common use it will be easier for those who want to reference your work. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Sep 1 23:20:44 2017
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 30.08.2017 15:16
    about Cough.

    Now, as to "Mr Woulf" and the sound of his cough... I assume he is
    in good health unless you tell us otherwise. Whether an "ahem" is
    real or fake it suggests, at worst, a minor affliction. If he had
    e.g. bronchitis or pneumonia or tuberculosis I'd expect his cough
    to sound very different. If what he wants to do is get somebody
    else to notice his presence it might be counterproductive if s/he
    thinks s/he's in danger of catching some dread disease...

    It would have been too much! He wanted just to attract her attention. ;-) Probably, he just didn't know how to address her. For instance yesterday, at BBC. com, I read an article about the people who demand to address them with "they" instead of he/she. ;)

    so I wouldn't recommend he go on at length. But these are your
    characters & your story. The shop assistant might well be reading a
    cheap thriller or romance novel... OTOH, she might well be an
    impecunious student cramming for a test the next day.:-Q

    Is there any connection between money and cramming for the test?

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Sep 1 23:47:48 2017
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 30.08.2017 15:56
    about Cough... 2..


    Do you mean that the first name always should mean something?

    No, just that I wasn't sure whether or not it was important to you
    to choose a surname which would blend in among native speakers of English.... :-)

    Probably it should blend. In other way people will not know how to spell it.

    <skipped>
    A person can choose a rare name to be unique, for instance.

    Indeed. My mother was supposedly named after her grandmothers...
    one of whom was a stickler for detail & didn't appreciate the
    compliment because of a letter her parents changed to make the
    names fit together. She then tried to avoid a repetition of the
    error by giving me a rather unusual name which nobody else in the
    family already had. As a child I found it awkward sometimes, but I
    did gain some valuable insights into preferred reasoning styles &
    whatnot. :-)

    Never I understood this tradition when children took the names of the people who is not alive.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Mon Sep 4 21:56:13 2017
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    If what he wants to do is get somebody else to notice his
    presence it might be counterproductive if s/he thinks
    s/he's in danger of catching some dread disease...

    It would have been too much! He wanted just to attract her
    attention. ;-)


    Exactly my point.... :-)



    Probably, he just didn't know how to address her. For
    instance yesterday, at BBC. com, I read an article about
    the people who demand to address them with "they" instead
    of he/she. ;)


    I haven't read this article... but I think I see why some folks might
    have strong feelings as to the use of pronouns. Can you give us the URL?

    Meanwhile, what nouns do we use when we want to talk about or talk to
    a shop assistant whose name we don't know? Both Paul & I steered you away from
    anything involving "girl", probably for similar reasons. Such individuals were
    often called "shop girls" in the past & may still be today. However, even when
    there's no argument WRT how much a certain person's gender really matters there
    is another issue. Years ago Dallas & I had a (male) friend who said "the girls
    in the office". As it happened, we'd met some of these "girls"... at least two
    of whom were married women aged 40-60. Dallas & I agreed that the word "girl",
    when the speaker is not part of the group, could imply feelings of superiority.
    OTOH when a group of friends go on an outing together & they're all of the same
    gender they may describe themselves as "girls" or "boys". In this case I would
    imagine they treat one another as equals, regardless of their occupation.

    Now... does one address a female shop assistant as "Miss" or "Ma'am"?
    I could write another essay, but the bottom line is that if "Mr Woulf" finds it
    easier to cough politely at times I & other folks will understand... [chuckle].



    The shop assistant might well be reading a cheap thriller
    or romance novel... OTOH, she might well be an impecunious
    student cramming for a test the next day. :-Q

    Is there any connection between money and cramming for the
    test?


    WRT my hypothetical student, there may be a conflict of interest.

    In North America, university students generally have to pay for their
    education... so it's quite common to see them doing menial jobs during evenings
    &/or weekends in order to scrape together the necessary funds. It's also quite
    common for them to do a lot of intensive review, AKA "cramming", in the last 24
    hours before a test... especially in subject areas which call for memorization.

    I reckon that in the short term this individual wants to keep her job
    because she needs the $$$... but she's not planning to make a career of it. In
    the long term she hopes to qualify for a diploma which would enable her to seek
    more interesting & well-paying jobs. If business is slow on Sunday afternoon &
    she thinks her boss won't notice she may be tempted to take a quick look at the
    periodic table or whatever in anticipation of a test on Monday morning.... ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Sep 5 18:08:32 2017
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 04.09.2017 13:56
    about Cough... 1..

    <skipped>
    Probably, he just didn't know how to address her. For instance
    yesterday, at BBC. com, I read an article about the people who
    demand to address them with "they" instead of he/she. ;)

    I haven't read this article... but I think I see why some folks
    might have strong feelings as to the use of pronouns. Can you give
    us the URL?

    I couldn't find it again, but an article on the issue '"him," "her" or "their."' is here: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/02/heres-a-list-of-58-gender-options-for-facebook-users/

    Meanwhile, what nouns do we use when we want to talk about or talk
    to a shop assistant whose name we don't know? Both Paul & I steered
    you away from anything involving "girl", probably for similar
    reasons.

    In Russia "girl" is fully acceptable addressing to any a not very old female shop-assistant. IMHO, an old woman feels herself being flattered. ;)

    Such individuals were often called "shop girls" in the
    past & may still be today. However, even when there's no argument
    WRT how much a certain person's gender really matters there is
    another issue. Years ago Dallas & I had a (male) friend who
    said "the girls in the office". As it happened, we'd met some of
    these "girls"... at least two of whom were married women aged 40-
    60.

    :)

    Dallas & I agreed that the word "girl", when the speaker is not
    part of the group, could imply feelings of superiority. OTOH when a
    group of friends go on an outing together & they're all of the same
    gender they may describe themselves as "girls" or "boys". In this
    case I would imagine they treat one another as equals, regardless
    of their occupation.

    Now in Russia we have a new jargon -- we can call a woman (when she doesn't hear it) with a funny sounding word used by small children (aunty - tetenka). I
    can say to my college, "A some tetenka called you 5 minutes ago -- she wanted you to call on the market department." ;)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Thu Sep 28 23:46:09 2017
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I couldn't find it again,


    Not to worry. I was just wondering what's going on in England these
    days... especially after Prince William said "me and Catherine". :-)



    but an article on the issue '"him," "her" or "their."'
    is here:
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/02/heres-a-
    list-of-58-gender-options-for-facebook-users/


    The mind fair boggles.... 8-)



    In Russia "girl" is fully acceptable addressing to any
    a not very old female shop-assistant. IMHO, an old woman
    feels herself being flattered. ;)


    In this part of the world an older woman might feel flattered if she
    thought you'd underestimated her age. However, a younger woman might be amused
    or insulted if she thought you'd done the same... [chuckle].

    From a historical POV, people have often been referred to as "lads &
    lasses" or "boy & girls" until their mid-twenties at least... particularly when
    they were as yet unmarried... but nowadays many women Over Here feel frustrated
    if it seems they may be doomed to a life of servitude in the pink collar ghetto
    because they're not recognized as individuals. I had a taste of that during my
    employment as a waitress, when for every male customer who remembered my name &
    appreciated my work there would be one who called me "Mary". The vast majority
    of these guys were middle-aged whereas my co-worker Mary & I were both about 22
    years old at the time. Since then, however, a lot of things have changed.

    When I was younger there were delivery boys, paper boys, stock boys,
    bag boys, stock boys... and in the restaurant business, bus boys (or girls) who
    cleared tables but hadn't worked their way up to waiting on customers. You got
    me thinking about who these people were & where they went. I reckon many would
    have been high school students or dropouts or recent graduates. These days the
    delivery boy may be a man in his seventies who's doing his best to supplement a
    meagre pension & the paper boy may be a middle-aged man from SomePlace Else who
    can't get a better job until he improves his English. I wouldn't refer to such
    people as boys, and I understand that sometimes adult males in the US object to
    being addressed that way because to them it is reminiscent of slavery. Younger
    folk still have jobs, of course... but you'd be more likely to see them working
    in coffee shops & fast food eateries if they have their sights set on something
    else. I'm reminded of the comment I read, in an account of the medieval period
    in England, where the author points out that if these people sounded young they
    probably were because the life expectancy in those days was 30. My mother also
    made me aware that during the mid-twentieth century womem were expected to stay
    at home & raise children once they were married. If the paper boy or the girls
    in the steno pool sounded young in those days, most of them probably were. :-)



    Now in Russia we have a new jargon -- we can call a
    woman (when she doesn't hear it) with a funny sounding
    word used by small children (aunty - tetenka). I can
    say to my college,


    I think you mean "colleague"....



    "A some tetenka called you 5 minutes ago -- she wanted
    you to call on the market department." ;)


    I'd say "some [blah blah]", without the article, but since you don't
    want her to overhear your description of her I recognize the type of person you
    are referring to... I think. I could tell stories about people of both genders
    who behave in a similar manner. I want to hear what you have to say about them
    first, though. I've rambled on more than enough & you need the practice. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From alexander koryagin@3:640/384 to Ardith Hinton on Fri Sep 29 21:08:50 2017
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 28.09.2017 15:46
    about Cough... 1..

    In Russia "girl" is fully acceptable addressing to any a not very
    old female shop-assistant. IMHO, an old woman feels herself being
    flattered. ;)

    In this part of the world an older woman might feel flattered if
    she thought you'd underestimated her age. However, a younger woman
    might be amused or insulted if she thought you'd done the same... [chuckle].
    From a historical POV, people have often been referred to as "lads
    & lasses" or "boy & girls" until their mid-twenties at least... particularly when they were as yet unmarried... but nowadays many
    women Over Here feel frustrated if it seems they may be doomed to a
    life of servitude in the pink collar ghetto because they're not
    <skipped>

    If it is interesting, "boy" and "girl" mean in English a much wider range of things than in Russian. In Russian we have more words for describing ages. When
    we apply to a young female shop assistant we use "devooshka" that is applied to
    young females from 16+ years old. Much more limited is the use of "malchik" ("young boy"). When we say "malchik" we mean somebody under 12 and don't use the word for grown-ups. We use "paren" ("guy") instead, or "molodoy chelovek" (a young human(!:))). A girl under 12 in Russian is "devochka".

    Now in Russia we have a new jargon -- we can call a woman (when
    she doesn't hear it) with a funny sounding word used by small
    children (aunty - tetenka). I can say to my college,

    I think you mean "colleague"....

    Yes. I believe I wrote this English word for the first time in my life. ;)

    "A some tetenka called you 5 minutes ago -- she wanted you to call
    on the market department." ;)

    I'd say "some [blah blah]", without the article, but since you
    don't want her to overhear your description of her I recognize the
    type of person you are referring to... I think. I could tell
    stories about people of both genders who behave in a similar
    manner. I want to hear what you have to say about them first,
    though. I've rambled on more than enough & you need the
    practice. :-))

    Well, IMHO, the matter is that many words in the Russian language sound funny, even for the Russians ;=) So, we use such words to make speech more informal. Ukrainian words for the Russians look even more funny (because of similarity of
    the languages) and Russian people often also use them for the same purpose.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    ENGLISH_TUTOR 2017

    --- Paul's Win98SE VirtualBox
    * Origin: Quinn's Post - Maryborough, Queensland, OZ (3:640/384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to alexander koryagin on Thu Oct 12 23:02:27 2017
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Now in Russia we have a new jargon -- we can call a woman
    (when she doesn't hear it) with a funny sounding word used
    by small children (aunty - tetenka).

    [...]

    the matter is that many words in the Russian language sound
    funny, even for the Russians ;=) So, we use such words to
    make speech more informal.


    Now that I think about it, we do much the same. Very young children
    may be referred to as toddlers or tykes... young teens or pre-teens (especially
    girls) as teenyboppers or tweenies... and elderly men as gaffers or geezers. A
    lot of the appeal of these words is that they sound amusing to us. But just as
    you say, we tend to apply them informally when the subject is out of earshot.

    Another way we have fun with English is by rhyming. IIRC there is a
    song from +/- the late 1950's about an "itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny yellow polka dot
    bikini", e.g., which the wearer has not yet mustered the courage to show off in
    public. I've also heard "handy-dandy", "hocus-pocus", and "hoity-toity". :-))



    Ukrainian words for the Russians look even more funny
    (because of similarity of the languages) and Russian
    people often also use them for the same purpose.


    Ah. I noticed how, in WAR AND PEACE, Pierre entertained his Russian
    friends by imitating a Ukrainian accent... partly because I'm interested in the
    way consonant sounds vary from one language to another & partly because we find
    the similarities & differences between English & German words amusing at times.
    A North American TV ad capitalizes on them by showing us the words "Volkswagen.
    Das Auto." Then the words are read aloud, using the German pronunciation. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)