• Re: BA 777 crash at Heathrow

    From Matt Whiting@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 14:25:13 2008
    jeff.ant@gmail.com wrote:
    On Jan 18, 6:25 am, Gig 601XL Builder <wrgiac...@REMOVEgmail.com>
    wrote:
    Blueskies wrote:
    What the heck happened? Fuel starvation? Doesn't sound like wind shear could have been an issue.
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004130291_apbritai...
    BBC America reported a second hand report that the pilot said that all
    power was loss.


    Here's a link I found that may give some insight... From my side, I'm
    just glad that everyone made it off the plane okay. http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/newstex/AFX-0013-22365773.htm

    Yes, it is great that nobody was hurt. I see the engines for R-R so
    that keeps the investigation close to home also. I have to admit that
    I've become a more nervous airline passenger as modern airplanes have
    become even more computer controlled. I never should have started out
    with a CS degree! :-)

    Matt
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Bertie the Bunyip@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 14:31:40 2008
    Big John <bigjohn@hal-pc.org> wrote in news:n893p3pvg3st1q78ui8jqdo73mmk1rfkrj@4ax.com:

    Bertie

    ------------------long clip-----------------------

    I have time in C-130, C-121 and C-141 but nothing in the modern Jet
    transport airliners. Weren't around when I retired.



    Wouldn't be that much different from teh 141, I wouldn't think.

    Want to thank you for the Tech data you gave in basic post that I
    clipped to save space.

    I ask lots of questions and learn something new every day.

    What bird do you normally fly or are you multiple currently qualified?


    Flying the 757 at the moment and current on widebody (non FBW) busses
    though I haven't flown one in a couple of years now.
    I know a few guys that flew the 141 out of McGuire.


    Bertie
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Bertie the Bunyip@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 14:37:01 2008
    "Peter Dohm" <lefty133@bellsouth.net> wrote in news:PCnkj.77520$K27.5958@bignews6.bellsouth.net:


    "Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message news:Xns9A299AAC19AFCpissupropeeh@207.14.116.130...
    D Ramapriya <d.ramapriya@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:35d049b5-4987-4d4a-b006-
    fe3404d7859d@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:

    On Jan 18, 5:11 pm, Thomas Borchert <borchert_tho...@hotmail.com>
    wrote:
    D,

    But this wasn't a normal landing.
    The 777 was reportedly circa 500 ft
    when the pilot noticed that the engine wasn't responding to
    greater power.

    Reported by whom? How on earth would you know? Have you thought to
    ask yourself why professional accident investigations tend to take
    months, even years? We know exactly nothing about what you claim to
    be fact. The AIB will issue an inital report in 48 hours. That will
    be our first clue. An "airport worker talked to the pilot..."? Bah,
    humbug!

    My Q is that once it was known that power was off,

    WE DO NOT KNOW THAT!


    Sky News reported that as information it had from the Captain
    himself.



    Sky News is almost as full of shit as Fox.

    Well it would be since it's owned by the same person.

    Let me guess, they made it "Breaking news" for about 12 hours, right?



    Bertie

    At least that long!

    Yesterday morning, this discussion thread was already running; and, at
    dinner time, at least one of the "all news" television channels was
    still running the same crap over and over as a "developing story."


    I get to see it all the time in Europe. Often it's the only english
    language channel. That and CNN.If I'm stuck in my hotel room ( because I
    have no money and am afraid of getting picked up for vagrancy) i get to
    see hurricanes inch themselves across the carribean hourly...

    Bertie


    Bertie
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Peter Dohm@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 10:29:08 2008

    "Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message news:Xns9A2A9463898C9pissupropeeh@207.14.116.130...
    "Peter Dohm" <lefty133@bellsouth.net> wrote in news:PCnkj.77520$K27.5958@bignews6.bellsouth.net:


    "Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message
    news:Xns9A299AAC19AFCpissupropeeh@207.14.116.130...
    D Ramapriya <d.ramapriya@gmail.com> wrote in >>>news:35d049b5-4987-4d4a-b006-
    fe3404d7859d@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:

    On Jan 18, 5:11 pm, Thomas Borchert <borchert_tho...@hotmail.com>
    wrote:
    D,

    But this wasn't a normal landing.
    The 777 was reportedly circa 500 ft
    when the pilot noticed that the engine wasn't responding to
    greater power.

    Reported by whom? How on earth would you know? Have you thought to
    ask yourself why professional accident investigations tend to take
    months, even years? We know exactly nothing about what you claim to
    be fact. The AIB will issue an inital report in 48 hours. That will
    be our first clue. An "airport worker talked to the pilot..."? Bah,
    humbug!

    My Q is that once it was known that power was off,

    WE DO NOT KNOW THAT!


    Sky News reported that as information it had from the Captain
    himself.



    Sky News is almost as full of shit as Fox.

    Well it would be since it's owned by the same person.

    Let me guess, they made it "Breaking news" for about 12 hours, right?



    Bertie

    At least that long!

    Yesterday morning, this discussion thread was already running; and, at
    dinner time, at least one of the "all news" television channels was
    still running the same crap over and over as a "developing story."


    I get to see it all the time in Europe. Often it's the only english
    language channel. That and CNN.If I'm stuck in my hotel room ( because I
    have no money and am afraid of getting picked up for vagrancy) i get to
    see hurricanes inch themselves across the carribean hourly...

    Bertie


    Fortunately for me, I rarely have to watch TV, except for a little ESPN--and that mostly while I am on a treadmill. However, yesterday I took the day to drive to the LSA Expo at Sebring--which is less than 150 miles away. On the way back, I decided that it was time to have a dinner of fried catfish
    (about once every 5 to 10 years is about right and it had been about that long) and the TV was playing in the restaurant. BTW, the catfish was very good and was the best that I can recall.

    For the most part, the LSAs are not quite ready for me, since I am 6'1" and don't like to be squished or to have my view blocked. But, that's OK since
    my budget isn't ready for them and I don't have any medical issues.
    However, the intesting thing the I learned was that, at least in the case of low wing aircraft, the ones that make the most use of carbon fiber have
    about a 100 pound usefull load advantage over the ones that don't. In the case of the LSAs, that works out to a 20 to 25% advantage in usefull load
    and up to 40% in pay load--and those numbers may carry over to a lot of standard category aircraft as well. That's huge!

    Peter
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Bertie the Bunyip@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 15:36:26 2008
    "Peter Dohm" <lefty133@bellsouth.net> wrote in news:6Kokj.69207$rc2.35476@bignews1.bellsouth.net:

    BTW, the catfish was very good and was the best that I
    can recall.

    Never had it, beleive it or not! you have me wanting to try, though.


    For the most part, the LSAs are not quite ready for me, since I am
    6'1" and don't like to be squished or to have my view blocked. But,
    that's OK since my budget isn't ready for them and I don't have any
    medical issues. However, the intesting thing the I learned was that,
    at least in the case of low wing aircraft, the ones that make the most
    use of carbon fiber have about a 100 pound usefull load advantage over
    the ones that don't. In the case of the LSAs, that works out to a 20
    to 25% advantage in usefull load and up to 40% in pay load--and those
    numbers may carry over to a lot of standard category aircraft as well.
    That's huge!


    OK, but of a non sequitor, but yeah, Good material.
    Wait til nanotubes hit the scene!


    Bertie
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From D Ramapriya@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 09:47:41 2008
    On Jan 19, 9:26 pm, Bertie the Bunyip <S...@rt.1> wrote:

    No, by "Cabin" I mean the portion of the airplane that the people sit in.

    The pressurisation for almost all jets comes form the turbine section. Several engines, most notoriously, RB211s, leak engine oil into the turbine section where; it's heated, pyrolised , and then injected in a fine mist
    into the cabin where it causes nerve damage to the occupants.
    All jet engines do this to some degree or other. RR engines, particularly
    the RB211 and particularly the early engines, inject lots and lots of this into the cabin.
    Nice.


    I don't believe this, in the oh-so-particular aviation industry! Why
    hasn't (a) anyone made a noise about it and (b) this affected people
    adversely yet?


    It's a huge problem worldwide. It's barely discussed in the US....
    The ramifications for the industry if this is ever looked square in the eye are mindblowing.
    Boeing have gone with a seperate blower for the 787 because of this
    problem.


    But if it was really such a problem, and considering that jets have
    been around for > 40 years now, there should've been a name against
    some sort of sickness that this causes.

    Quite disturbing, truth to tell. Thanks for the erudition :)

    Ramapriya
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From RST Engineering@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 10:01:46 2008
    If I'm not mistaken, and it has been forty some years since I've bent a
    wrench on the torch so I may well be, the pressurization comes from the compressor section and not the turbine section. In particular, my manual
    for the JT8D says it comes from the 13th stage compressor. It would be WAY the hell too hot to come from the turbine section. It is hot enough coming off the compressor to require an intercooler before using it for pressurization.

    Jim



    The pressurisation for almost all jets comes form the turbine section.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From James Robinson@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 18:04:37 2008
    Bertie the Bunyip <Sn@rt.1> wrote:

    D Ramapriya <d.ramapriya@gmail.com> wrote:

    Big John <bigj...@hal-pc.org> wrote:

    I'm sure all remember early airbus bird, that with the Company Pilot
    and Airbus Wheels in it, made a slow low altitude pass over, I
    forget just what they were having on the ground,and bird got behind
    the power curve and sank into the trees and crashed. Red faces all
    over Airbus.


    And the pilot Michel Asseline is still in jail, I hear :(


    I don;t htink he did much, if any time, in fact..

    He was originally sentenced to 6 months in jail, and 12 months probation.
    He appealed, and the sentence was increased to 10 months in jail, and 10 months on probation.

    He eventually served the full ten months in jail, and has been released.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Bertie the Bunyip@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 18:22:44 2008
    D Ramapriya <d.ramapriya@gmail.com> wrote in news:d8af984f-0f75-4c11-b974-d16b0602fed3@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

    On Jan 19, 9:26 pm, Bertie the Bunyip <S...@rt.1> wrote:

    No, by "Cabin" I mean the portion of the airplane that the people sit
    in.

    The pressurisation for almost all jets comes form the turbine
    section. Several engines, most notoriously, RB211s, leak engine oil
    into the turbine section where; it's heated, pyrolised , and then
    injected in a fine mist into the cabin where it causes nerve damage
    to the occupants. All jet engines do this to some degree or other. RR
    engines, particularly the RB211 and particularly the early engines,
    inject lots and lots of this into the cabin.
    Nice.


    I don't believe this, in the oh-so-particular aviation industry! Why
    hasn't (a) anyone made a noise about it and (b) this affected people adversely yet?


    Well, there is some noise being made about it, but not enough.
    Governments could fall over theis ( particularly the British one) and it
    would devastate the aivaition industry.
    It has affected people. Lots of them. Mostly pilots. Lots and lots have
    been grounded by exposure to engine oil fumes.

    It's a huge problem worldwide. It's barely discussed in the US....
    The ramifications for the industry if this is ever looked square in
    the eye are mindblowing.
    Boeing have gone with a seperate blower for the 787 because of this
    problem.


    But if it was really such a problem, and considering that jets have
    been around for > 40 years now, there should've been a name against
    some sort of sickness that this causes.

    Quite disturbing, truth to tell. Thanks for the erudition :)

    More for me than you, man!


    Bertie
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Bertie the Bunyip@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 18:24:18 2008
    "RST Engineering" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in news:13p4eknjfgtou90@news.supernews.com:

    If I'm not mistaken, and it has been forty some years since I've bent
    a wrench on the torch so I may well be, the pressurization comes from
    the compressor section and not the turbine section. In particular, my
    manual for the JT8D says it comes from the 13th stage compressor. It
    would be WAY the hell too hot to come from the turbine section. It is
    hot enough coming off the compressor to require an intercooler before
    using it for pressurization.


    Yeah, sorry, slip of the tongue.Yes, the compresser wsection. Air coming
    from the turbine would be marginally worse!

    Bertie
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Bertie the Bunyip@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 18:25:10 2008
    James Robinson <wascana@212.com> wrote in news:Xns9A2A84FA2BA53wascana212com@66.250.146.128:

    Bertie the Bunyip <Sn@rt.1> wrote:

    D Ramapriya <d.ramapriya@gmail.com> wrote:

    Big John <bigj...@hal-pc.org> wrote:

    I'm sure all remember early airbus bird, that with the Company
    Pilot and Airbus Wheels in it, made a slow low altitude pass over,
    I forget just what they were having on the ground,and bird got
    behind the power curve and sank into the trees and crashed. Red
    faces all over Airbus.


    And the pilot Michel Asseline is still in jail, I hear :(


    I don;t htink he did much, if any time, in fact..

    He was originally sentenced to 6 months in jail, and 12 months
    probation. He appealed, and the sentence was increased to 10 months
    in jail, and 10 months on probation.

    He eventually served the full ten months in jail, and has been
    released.


    Yeah, sounds about right.

    i think he was mae a scapegoat, myself.

    Bertie
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Mxsmanic@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 20:37:33 2008
    Thomas Borchert writes:

    I'm sure most remember that was not at all what happened. Red faces all
    over Air France when their hot shot demo pilot had a "Hey, watch this" moment.

    Especially when his stunt exposed serious problems with the aircraft fly-by-wire software ... serious enough to require doctoring the black box so that nobody would find out about them. That was when I wrote Airbus off permanently. Safety obviously wasn't a priority.

    Stranger still was declaring the pilot mentally unbalanced after the incident. He had been one of their best pilots. Either they were lying about his mental state, or they were admitting that their best pilots are mentally unbalanced; neither conclusion is particularly reassuring.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Mxsmanic@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 20:40:34 2008
    D Ramapriya writes:

    And the pilot Michel Asseline is still in jail, I hear :(

    He was sentenced to six months.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Mxsmanic@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 20:41:45 2008
    RST Engineering writes:

    If I'm not mistaken, and it has been forty some years since I've bent a wrench on the torch so I may well be, the pressurization comes from the compressor section and not the turbine section.

    All of those rotating things with blades are turbines.
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Bertie the Bunyip@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 19:43:25 2008
    Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in news:4jk4p3pu66b8ug1u2h30n3lqe79s0hb8n3@4ax.com:

    RST Engineering writes:

    If I'm not mistaken, and it has been forty some years since I've bent a
    wrench on the torch so I may well be, the pressurization comes from the
    compressor section and not the turbine section.

    All of those rotating things with blades are turbines.


    So your head is a turbine?


    Bertie
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Bertie the Bunyip@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 19:47:36 2008
    Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in news:h8k4p3h8ha4ehq1keqpabqmsqdilv9mcg7@4ax.com:

    Thomas Borchert writes:

    I'm sure most remember that was not at all what happened. Red faces
    all over Air France when their hot shot demo pilot had a "Hey, watch
    this" moment.

    Especially when his stunt exposed serious problems with the aircraft fly-by-wire software ..

    No, it didn't, you fjukkwit.



    Bertie
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)
  • From Dan_Thomas_nospam@1:2320/100 to rec.aviation.piloting on Sat Jan 19 14:38:11 2008
    On Jan 19, 12:41 pm, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail.com> wrote:
    RST Engineering writes:
    If I'm not mistaken, and it has been forty some years since I've bent a wrench on the torch so I may well be, the pressurization comes from the compressor section and not the turbine section.

    All of those rotating things with blades are turbines.

    Only to those who have no idea of the proper terminology.
    The turbine is the section that extracts power from the hot, high-
    velocity gases and uses it to drive the compressor. It also drives the
    fan in a turbofan, or the propeller in a turboprop, or the output
    shaft in a turboshaft engine (APUs, helicopters, and some marine applications.Probably lots more, especially military stuff.) Anything
    else rotating with blades is part of the compressor section, or the
    fan.
    See: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/turbdraw.html

    Dan
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Derby City BBS - Louisville, KY - Derbycitybbs.com (1:2320/100)