• slightly different format

    From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to All on Thu Nov 12 14:58:25 2020
    Hey All!

    Counting the one below there is at least one other in the archive that follows this particular format where the ascii art lines precede the "..." part of a normal tagline. Either way both formats work and the tagline will always follow the signoff signature and precede the tearline.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
    (..)-----;
    ||---||
    ^^ ^^
    ... A Møøse once bit my sister ...
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Charles Pierson@1:229/426.67 to Maurice Kinal on Thu Nov 12 18:41:01 2020
    Hello, Maurice Kinal.
    On 11/12/20 2:58 PM you wrote:

    Hey All! Counting the one below there is at least one other in the archive that follows this particular format where the ascii art
    lines precede the "..." part of a normal tagline. Either way both formats work and the tagline will always follow the signoff
    signature and precede the tearline. Life is good, Maurice
    ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
    (..)-----;
    ||---||
    ^^ ^^
    ... A Møøse once bit my sister ...

    So another version of your tagline generator?

    --
    Best regards!
    Posted using Hotdoged on Android
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Houston, TX (1:229/426.67)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Charles Pierson on Thu Nov 12 19:27:05 2020
    Hey Charles!

    ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
    (..)-----;
    ||---||
    ^^ ^^
    ... A Møøse once bit my sister ...

    So another version of your tagline generator?

    A different Origin but the same routine and tagline file as before. There are a couple taglines in the mix that are not old/modern english, such as the Møøse one, and with a different format. I think there are also a couple or few that are pure ascii and could easily be mistaken as an old fashioned oneliner tagline from days of yore.

    Bottomline is that they all work ... errrr ... *should* all work. Thank you for helping confirm that.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Lot sceal mid lyswe, list mid gedefum.
    Cunning goes with corruption, craft with what is right.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 07:54:47 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-12 14:58:25, you wrote to All:

    @MSGID: 1:153/7001.2989 5fadbe11
    @CHRS: UTF-8 4
    @RFC-3339: 2020-11-12 14:58:25-08:00

    Missing the TZUTC flag! ;-)

    Counting the one below there is at least one other in the archive that follows this particular format where the ascii art lines precede the
    "..." part of a normal tagline. Either way both formats work and the tagline will always follow the signoff signature and precede the
    tearline.


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Thu Nov 12 23:11:42 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    @RFC-3339: 2020-11-12 14:58:25-08:00

    Missing the TZUTC flag! ;-)

    It's in there along with other very useful information. Check this out;

    -={ '<Esc>:read !TZ=UTC date --rfc-3339=sec --date="2020-11-12 14:58:25-08:00"' starts }=-
    2020-11-12 22:58:25+00:00
    -={ '<Esc>:read !TZ=UTC date --rfc-3339=sec --date="2020-11-12 14:58:25-08:00"' ends }=-

    Much better.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Se ðe ear gifeð and eft oftihð... bysmer he gewyrceð.
    He who gives and takes it back again does a shameful thing.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 08:46:25 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-12 23:11:42, you wrote to me:

    @MSGID: 1:153/7001.2989 5fae31ae
    @REPLY: 2:280/464 5fae2dd1
    @CHRS: UTF-8 4
    @RFC-3339: 2020-11-12 23:11:42.777259306-08:00

    @RFC-3339: 2020-11-12 14:58:25-08:00

    Missing the TZUTC flag! ;-)

    It's in there along with other very useful information. Check this out;

    -={ '<Esc>:read !TZ=UTC date --rfc-3339=sec --date="2020-11-12 14:58:25-08:00"' starts }=- 2020-11-12 22:58:25+00:00 -={ '<Esc>:read !TZ=UTC date --rfc-3339=sec --date="2020-11-12 14:58:25-08:00"' ends }=-

    Much better.

    Indeed...

    As I'm not sure any software actually uses the TZUTC flag it would be better, although it's not a fidonet standard afaik...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Fri Nov 13 00:11:01 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    As I'm not sure any software actually uses the TZUTC flag it
    would be better, although it's not a fidonet standard afaik...

    I was aware of people working on using TZUTC but have yet to see it in action. While we're at it, I believe the RFC-3339 flag goes a long way towards fixing both past (eg obsolete two digit year in electronic messaging aka email) and future issues (Y2038 bug). Also the totally numeric output makes it far more universal than any other datetime stamp with alpha charaters. Also, also great for sorting.

    although it's not a fidonet standard afaik

    Understood. Perhaps it could be given a MSG2 or MSG+ format. It wouldn't hurt my feelings any to see the current MSG header's datetime stamp get the heave-ho that should have happened way back in 2002 if not sooner than that.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Wæra gehwylcum wislicu word gerisað, gleomen gied ond guman snyttro.
    Wise words befit everyone; a song for a singer, wisdom for men.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From August Abolins@2:333/808.7 to Wilfred van Velzen on Fri Nov 13 19:03:25 2020
    Hi Wilfred!

    13 Nov 20 08:46, you wrote to Maurice Kinal:

    Missing the TZUTC flag! ;-)

    As I'm not sure any software actually uses the TZUTC flag it would be better, although it's not a fidonet standard afaik...

    The time of post is not necessarily critical. But it is cool to recognize that when a post is dated and uses tzutc, and processed with a capable reader, it reveals the time relative to one's own local time.


    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)
  • From August Abolins@2:333/808.7 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 18:58:54 2020
    Hi Maurice!

    13 Nov 20 00:11, you wrote to Wilfred Van Velzen:

    I was aware of people working on using TZUTC but have yet to see it in action.

    OpenXP does a fine job of it. It lists the messages in order (and "links" them if the msgid and replyid are present) of the flow of the conversation.

    So, even if someone replies to a message prior to someone else, but only arrives later (no matter what part of the world), it will be *first* in the thread tree.




    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to August Abolins on Fri Nov 13 10:48:57 2020
    Hey August!

    OpenXP does a fine job of it.

    I'd like to see the routine. Best I can think of is to combine the MSG header datetime stamp with the TZUTC and then use that resulting string to make the adjustment. Your combined msg header date and TZUTC string would be "13 Nov 20 18:58:54+0100" which requires extra steps to assemble as well as to tack on the '+' character onto the TZUTC which is lacking and NEEDED to do proper conversions. A rfc-3339 datetime stamp is vastly superior and contains everything needed. In your case it would be "2020-11-13 18:58:54+0100" which is the same as "2020-11-13 09:58:54-08:00" relative to 1:153/7001.2989.

    Anyhow it is doable but requires additional processing in order to honour an obsolete datetime stamp (two digit year) and a corrupted utc offset which lacks the required '+' prefix for timezones east of prime meridian.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Freond deah feor ge neah; byð near nyttra.
    A friend is useful, far or near; the nearer the better.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Fri Nov 13 20:48:00 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-11-13 19:03:25, you wrote to me:

    Missing the TZUTC flag! ;-)

    As I'm not sure any software actually uses the TZUTC flag it would be
    better, although it's not a fidonet standard afaik...

    The time of post is not necessarily critical. But it is cool to recognize that when a post is dated and uses tzutc, and processed with a capable reader, it reveals the time relative to one's own local time.

    That's what I like about it. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 20:50:23 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-13 10:48:57, you wrote to August Abolins:

    Anyhow it is doable but requires additional processing in order to
    honour an obsolete datetime stamp (two digit year) and a corrupted utc offset which lacks the required '+' prefix for timezones east of prime meridian.

    Again, that is not a requirement for the fidonet TZUTC flag.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Fri Nov 13 12:54:10 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    Again, that is not a requirement for the fidonet TZUTC flag.

    By default, it is for the RFC-3339 flag. Same with the full year.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Yldo beoð on eorðan æghwæs cræftig.
    Old age has power over everything on earth.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 22:04:00 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-13 12:54:10, you wrote to me:

    Again, that is not a requirement for the fidonet TZUTC flag.

    By default, it is for the RFC-3339 flag. Same with the full year.

    Indeed. But that's not the TZUTC flag. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Fri Nov 13 22:10:24 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    But that's not the TZUTC flag.

    It is still in there although it would be easier to do something like this to generate a proper one rather than extract it from RFC-3339;

    printf "\1TZUTC: %s\r" "$(date +%z | tr -d +)"

    It even has the proper C0 control codes in it as per specs.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Man byþ on myrgþe his magan leof; sceal þeah anra gehwylc oðrum swican.
    Man in joy is dear to his kin; but they will have to part.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 23:08:23 2020
    Hallo Maurice!

    It even has the proper C0 control codes in it as per specs.

    Except you forgot to turn them on.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Sorg ond slæp somod ætgædre earmne anhogan oft gebindað.
    Sorrow and sleep both together often bind the wretched solitary person.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Fri Nov 13 22:50:32 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    But that's not the TZUTC flag. ;)

    I forgot to turn them both on in the last reply. Let me know if it actually makes a difference. Also I took the liberty of dropping the ':' character between hours and minutes in the TZ part of the RFC-3339 flag which now perfectly matches the digits in the TZUTC flag. It makes no difference to it's enhanced usage over the both the MSG header datetime stamp with the TZUTC and vastly eliminates much code in order to make TZUTC useful.

    That's my story and I am sticking to it.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Eaðe wis man mæg witan spell and eac secgan.
    Easily may a wise man understand a story, and tell it too.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Nov 13 15:24:45 2020
    Hey Maurice!

    That's my story and I am sticking to it.

    And now there are three with this msg standing as evidence that west is indeed best.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Wel bið þam eorle þe him on innan hafað... rume heortan.
    Well shall it be for the man who has within him a generous heart.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Sat Nov 14 16:47:25 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-13 22:50:32, you wrote to me:

    @TZUTC: 0000
    @RFC-3339: 2020-11-13 22:50:32+0000

    But that's not the TZUTC flag. ;)

    I forgot to turn them both on in the last reply. Let me know if it actually makes a difference. Also I took the liberty of dropping the ':' character between hours and minutes in the TZ part of the RFC-3339 flag which now perfectly matches the digits in the TZUTC flag. It makes no difference to it's enhanced usage over the both the MSG header datetime stamp with the TZUTC and vastly eliminates much code in order to make TZUTC
    useful.

    It's in UTC on this message, the next one is ok though...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Sat Nov 14 16:23:28 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    It's in UTC on this message, the next one is ok though...

    UTC is correct for this node. The next one was from the point where I am testing the single user mode of this ... whatever this is.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Seldan snottor guma sorgleas blissað.
    Seldom does a wise man rejoice without sorrow.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Sat Nov 14 08:27:54 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    It's in UTC on this message, the next one is ok though...

    This is the point that sent the next one and the user (me) has his utc offset as PST8PDT which is currently -0800 (PST). Since I don't use this account for anything else I figure it is perfect for testing what could be considered offine messaging.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ne mæg non mon nænne cræft forþbringan butan wisdom.
    No one can accomplish any skill without wisdom.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Sat Nov 14 17:37:29 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-14 16:23:28, you wrote to me:

    It's in UTC on this message, the next one is ok though...

    UTC is correct for this node.

    Is that node located in the 0 meridian timezone? I'm guessing it's not, so that wouldn't be correct...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sat Nov 14 22:00:12 2020
    Hallo Wilfred!

    UTC is correct for this node.

    Is that node located in the 0 meridian timezone?

    Nowhere near prime meridian but UTC is still the benchmark for syncing networks. All the system's times here are still UTC which makes things vastly easier for sorting and other pruposes such as scheduling network events and the such.

    I'm guessing it's not, so that wouldn't be correct...

    It is correct. Saying otherwise would be wrong such as "TZUTC: 0000" instead of "TZUTC: +0000". FTS-4008 is wrong, wrong, wrong and is the source of corruption for those east of prime meridian. The RFC-3339 flag addresses this particular major flaw in FTS-4008 and covers ALL the datetime issues including the obsolete MSG datetime stamp.

    So now that I've included TZUTC in all of the MSGs originating from here has it made any difference there in any meaningful way?

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... ðone wisdom ðe ðe God sealde ðær ðær ðu hiene befæstan mæge, befæste.
    Wherever you can use the wisdom God gave you, use it.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Nov 15 15:50:02 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-14 22:00:12, you wrote to me:

    UTC is correct for this node.

    Is that node located in the 0 meridian timezone?

    Nowhere near prime meridian but UTC is still the benchmark for syncing networks. All the system's times here are still UTC which makes things vastly easier for sorting and other pruposes such as scheduling network events and the such.

    It is advised that you set the hardware clock of a linux system to UTC. All the systems I run have that too. But they also know their location and offset to UTC, so they can present the correct localtime.

    I'm guessing it's not, so that wouldn't be correct...

    It is correct.

    No it isn't.

    Saying otherwise would be wrong such as "TZUTC: 0000" instead of
    "TZUTC: +0000". FTS-4008 is wrong, wrong, wrong and is the source of corruption for those east of prime meridian.

    FTS-4008 Is right by definition. It's the fidonet standard. That it's not the same as other standards doesn't matter.

    So now that I've included TZUTC in all of the MSGs originating from
    here has it made any difference there in any meaningful way?

    Only if it's not 'TZUTC: 0000'. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Sun Nov 15 07:35:14 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    they also know their location and offset to UTC, so they can
    present the correct localtime.

    When it presents the localtime exactly what information is it providing?

    FTS-4008 Is right by definition. It's the fidonet standard.

    My country right or wrong? FTS-4008 is a seriously flawed document. It takes a legitimate concept (utc offset) and bastardizes it for no apparent reason. It should get the heave-ho. Something like the RFC-3339 flag would be a much better approach for compensating for the current flaws in fidonet standards.

    has it made any difference there in any meaningful way?

    Only if it's not 'TZUTC: 0000'. ;)

    Within this msg is one that presents a legitimate utc offset (-0800) encased in a TZUTC flag. Does it make a difference? Also I see absolutely no location information there. I could easily be in California according to the offset. Also, also mobile systems dumping offline pkts to 1:153/7001 sould easily be anywhere in the world and it is doubtful anyone could locate it from whatever offset it presents.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ne scyle wandian witona ænig þæt he his ælmessan ofte gesylle.
    No wise person should hesitate to give alms often.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Nov 15 17:23:27 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-15 07:35:14, you wrote to me:

    they also know their location and offset to UTC, so they can
    present the correct localtime.

    When it presents the localtime exactly what information is it providing?

    Asking the question is answering it: localtime.

    FTS-4008 Is right by definition. It's the fidonet standard.

    My country right or wrong?

    What does your country have to do with it?

    FTS-4008 is a seriously flawed document.

    No it isn't. It just documents current practice, as it was in fidonet at the time it was drafted.

    It takes a legitimate concept (utc offset) and bastardizes it for no apparent reason. It should get the heave-ho. Something like the
    RFC-3339 flag would be a much better approach for compensating for the current flaws in fidonet standards.

    It is how it is in fidonet. I would say almost impossible to change. So you will just have to live with it.

    has it made any difference there in any meaningful way?

    Only if it's not 'TZUTC: 0000'. ;)

    Within this msg is one that presents a legitimate utc offset (-0800) encased in a TZUTC flag. Does it make a difference?

    Yes, now I know the real localtime when the message was written. I think that's usefull information. It makes a difference when some one writes a message in the middle of the night or during the day...


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From August Abolins@2:460/58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sun Nov 15 19:54:12 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-15 07:35:14, you wrote to me:

    they also know their location and offset to UTC, so they can
    present the correct localtime.

    When it presents the localtime exactly what information is it providing?

    Asking the question is answering it: localtime.

    FTS-4008 Is right by definition. It's the fidonet standard.

    My country right or wrong?

    What does your country have to do with it?

    FTS-4008 is a seriously flawed document.

    No it isn't. It just documents current practice, as it was in fidonet at the time it was drafted.

    It takes a legitimate concept (utc offset) and bastardizes it for no apparent reason. It should get the heave-ho. Something like the RFC-3339 flag would be a much better approach for compensating for the
    current flaws in fidonet standards.

    It is how it is in fidonet. I would say almost impossible to change. So you will just have to live with it.

    has it made any difference there in any meaningful way?

    Only if it's not 'TZUTC: 0000'. ;)

    Within this msg is one that presents a legitimate utc offset (-0800) encased in a TZUTC flag. Does it make a difference?

    Yes, now I know the real localtime when the message was written. I think that's usefull information. It makes a difference when some one writes a message in the middle of the night or during the day...


    Bye, Wilfred.

    It ultimately depends on where you KNOW someone resides. For instance, my posts from Veleno are timestamped Italian time, but unless you know where I actually live, you can't say.. "Aug wrote that at 3am! He needs help."


    --- tg BBS v0.6.2
    * Origin: Fido by Telegram BBS by Stas Mishchenkov (2:460/58)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Sun Nov 15 17:57:19 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-11-15 19:54:12, you wrote to me:

    Yes, now I know the real localtime when the message was written. I
    think that's usefull information. It makes a difference when some
    one writes a message in the middle of the night or during the day...

    It ultimately depends on where you KNOW someone resides. For instance,
    my posts from Veleno are timestamped Italian time, but unless you know where I actually live, you can't say.. "Aug wrote that at 3am! He
    needs help."

    I know it isn't perfect, but most of the time it works...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From August Abolins@2:460/58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sun Nov 15 20:06:13 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-11-15 19:54:12, you wrote to me:

    Yes, now I know the real localtime when the message was written. I WvV>> think that's usefull information. It makes a difference when some WvV>> one writes a message in the middle of the night or during the day...

    It ultimately depends on where you KNOW someone resides. For instance,
    my posts from Veleno are timestamped Italian time, but unless you know
    where I actually live, you can't say.. "Aug wrote that at 3am! He needs help."

    I know it isn't perfect, but most of the time it works...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    Where the real magic resides, I find, is in a program that can utilize the TZUTC info in such a way it organizes the message in true chronological order in a thread - and not based on arrival time. For instance, if don't read an echo for days, but different people write messages with true replies prior to that at different times, the actual order of the messages in a thread are connected to a parent message in the time order that people thus spoke.


    --- tg BBS v0.6.2
    * Origin: Fido by Telegram BBS by Stas Mishchenkov (2:460/58)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Sun Nov 15 09:22:17 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    Asking the question is answering it: localtime.

    So then it is UTC? That is localtime here and I assume there given you've already said your system's time is UTC.

    What does your country have to do with it?

    Nothing thank goodness.

    It is how it is in fidonet. I would say almost impossible to
    change. So you will just have to live with it.

    Or ignore it which is probably what I will end up doing soon. However I do not cede my right to bitch about it again in the future if it strikes my fancy.

    Also nothing is impossible even in fidonet but in the case of the obsolete MSG header's datetime stamp I think you're right about 'almost impossible'.

    I think that's usefull information.

    If that is all you require then I'd suggest the RFC-3339, or something like it, is the way to go. No harm, no foul.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Wes þu a giedda wis, wær wið willan, worda hyrde.
    Be ever wise in speech, watchful against desire; guard your words.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Charles Pierson@1:229/426.67 to August Abolins on Sun Nov 15 11:44:36 2020
    Hello, August Abolins.
    On 11/15/20 7:54 PM you wrote:

    Within this msg is one that presents a legitimate utc offset
    (-0800) MK> encased in a TZUTC flag. Does it make a difference?
    Yes, now I know the real localtime when the message was written.
    I think that's usefull information. It makes a difference when
    some one writes a message in the middle of the night or during
    the day... Bye, Wilfred.
    It ultimately depends on where you KNOW someone resides. For
    instance, my posts from Veleno are timestamped Italian time, but
    unless you know where I actually live, you can't say.. "Aug wrote
    that at 3am! He needs help."

    What is that supposed to mean? I do some of my most inspired writing at 3am! :D

    --
    Best regards!
    Posted using Hotdoged on Android
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Houston, TX (1:229/426.67)
  • From Charles Pierson@1:229/426.67 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sun Nov 15 11:48:21 2020
    Hello, Wilfred van Velzen.
    On 11/15/20 5:57 PM you wrote:

    Yes, now I know the real localtime when the message was
    written. I think that's usefull information. It makes a
    difference when some one writes a message in the middle of the
    night or during the day...
    It ultimately depends on where you KNOW someone resides. For
    instance, my posts from Veleno are timestamped Italian time, but
    unless you know where I actually live, you can't say.. "Aug wrote
    that at 3am! He needs help."
    I know it isn't perfect, but most of the time it works...

    Does it actually matter whether I wrote this at 11:45 am (actual time for me) or 11:45pm?


    --
    Best regards!
    Posted using Hotdoged on Android
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Houston, TX (1:229/426.67)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Sun Nov 15 20:42:03 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-11-15 20:06:13, you wrote to me:

    Where the real magic resides, I find, is in a program that can utilize
    the TZUTC info in such a way it organizes the message in true chronological order in a thread - and not based on arrival time. For instance, if don't read an echo for days, but different people write messages with true replies prior to that at different times, the
    actual order of the messages in a thread are connected to a parent
    message in the time order that people thus spoke.

    I know, and I even thought about implementing such a function in FMail. But it would be difficult to do it right. Because for instance there are messages without the TZUTC kludge. How do you sort those. I you use TZUTC 0000 as default, they will probably end up in the wrong order. I thought about creating a table for this that couples the netnumber to a particular timezone, but there probably are nets, that have nodes in different timezones. And of course there are nodes that are in nets that are not in their timezone. So lots of things that can go wrong, so I never took the time. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Nov 15 20:49:11 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-15 09:22:17, you wrote to me:

    It is how it is in fidonet. I would say almost impossible to
    change. So you will just have to live with it.

    Or ignore it which is probably what I will end up doing soon. However I do
    not cede my right to bitch about it again in the future if it strikes my fancy.

    Of course, and I think I called you Don Quichot before. ;)

    I think that's usefull information.

    If that is all you require then I'd suggest the RFC-3339, or something like
    it, is the way to go. No harm, no foul.

    It will do for that, as long as it displays the real timezone of the user, and not 0000 when he's not in the UK.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Charles Pierson on Sun Nov 15 20:53:51 2020
    Hi Charles,

    On 2020-11-15 11:48:21, you wrote to me:

    I know it isn't perfect, but most of the time it works...

    Does it actually matter whether I wrote this at 11:45 am (actual time for me) or 11:45pm?

    Yes, it's a little piece of information about the user that wrote the message. Maybe not terrible important, but still it is information...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Sun Nov 15 14:03:51 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    Of course, and I think I called you Don Quichot before. ;)

    I've been called worse. Anyhow it doesn't change the fact that I am right about dropping the '+' character, as well as the obsolete datetime stamp. I could also note that some people are still getting the CHRS wrong according to fidonet specs but like the TZUTC flag it appears to be a flag that doesn't really do anything. Just like the FTSC. ;-)

    It will do for that, as long as it displays the real timezone
    of the user, and not 0000 when he's not in the UK.

    Or South Africa. They aren't in the UK and +0000 is just as real to them. Beats me if any of them use the TZUTC flag but I am guessing not. Mind you I already am guessing that NOBODY is using it. I logged into an online BBS and noted that it doesn't adjust for TZUTC. Probably just as well all things considered.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... [Wif sceal] leohtmod wesan rune healdan, rumheort beon.
    A woman should be cheerful, keep secrets, and have a generous heart.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Nov 16 09:45:57 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-15 14:03:51, you wrote to me:

    Of course, and I think I called you Don Quichot before. ;)

    I've been called worse. Anyhow it doesn't change the fact that I am right about dropping the '+' character, as well as the obsolete datetime stamp.

    No your wrong, it works according to the fidonet standard.

    Keep fighting those windmills! ;)

    I could also note that some people are still getting the CHRS wrong according to fidonet specs.

    That's true. Although "people" should be "software".

    but like the TZUTC flag it appears to be a flag that doesn't really do anything.

    But it does! Editors can and will use the flag to display the text in the message body in the right character set. I know golded can when properly configured.

    Just like the FTSC. ;-)

    If you don't like what they do, you should join them, so you can change that! ;)

    It will do for that, as long as it displays the real timezone
    of the user, and not 0000 when he's not in the UK.

    Or South Africa. They aren't in the UK and +0000 is just as real to them. Beats me if any of them use the TZUTC flag but I am guessing not.

    There are no African nodes anymore nor Portugese, but there are nodes in the UK.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Nov 16 20:47:13 2020
    Hi! Wilfred,

    On 16 Nov 20 09:45, you wrote to Maurice Kinal:

    I've been called worse. Anyhow it doesn't change the fact that I
    am right about dropping the '+' character, as well as the
    obsolete datetime stamp.

    No your wrong, it works according to the fidonet standard.

    He has a wrong something, and a right something but you did mean to say "you're", I'm sure.

    Just like the FTSC. ;-)
    If you don't like what they do, you should join them, so you can
    change that! ;)

    I would be happy to nominate Maurice. (I don't think you can.)

    There are no African nodes anymore nor Portugese, but there are nodes
    in the UK.

    The singular African refugee resides in Zone 3 now.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... It beeped and said "Countdown initiated". Is that bad?
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Paul Quinn on Mon Nov 16 12:12:22 2020
    Hi Paul,

    On 2020-11-16 20:47:13, you wrote to me:

    I've been called worse. Anyhow it doesn't change the fact that I
    am right about dropping the '+' character, as well as the
    obsolete datetime stamp.

    No your wrong, it works according to the fidonet standard.

    He has a wrong something, and a right something but you did mean to say "you're", I'm sure.

    You're right! ;)

    Just like the FTSC. ;-)
    If you don't like what they do, you should join them, so you can
    change that! ;)

    I would be happy to nominate Maurice. (I don't think you can.)

    I can also ask my RC to nominate him, if he wants to be nominated...

    There are no African nodes anymore nor Portugese, but there are nodes
    in the UK.

    The singular African refugee resides in Zone 3 now.

    Russel Tied. Didn't know that...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Mon Nov 16 06:08:10 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    No your wrong, it works according to the fidonet standard.

    If by "works" you mean "does nothing" then it appears to be working well since I have yet to see or hear about any software that actually uses that flag to make adjustments.

    Keep fighting those windmills! ;)

    Up to now I haven't been fighting. I've been calling it bitching. You should be able to tell by the amount of bitching, as well as what I am bitching about, what I am currently working on. This time it was a random tagline generator that somehow got distracted by TZUTC flags.

    I could also note that some people are still getting the CHRS wrong
    according to fidonet specs.

    That's true. Although "people" should be "software".

    Okay. I think in this case the same software that is displaying a faulty CHRS is the same software that;

    I know golded can when properly configured.

    If so then please explain "CHRS: UTF-8 2" with respect to FTS-5003. Also golded corrupts utf-8 characters (same with msged) when it tries to actually use them, with or without a CHRS flag. I haven't noticed if it makes adjustments when it encounters a TZUTC flag. Does it?

    If you don't like what they do, you should join them, so you can
    change that! ;)

    I'll get right on that.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ræd sceal mon secgan, rune writan, leoþ gesingan, lofes gearnian.
    One should give counsel, write secrets, sing songs, earn praise.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Paul Quinn on Mon Nov 16 06:43:58 2020
    Hey Paul!

    I would be happy to nominate Maurice.

    For what?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Deað bið sella eorla gehwylcum þonne edwitlif.
    Death is better for any warrior than a life of disgrace.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Mon Nov 16 06:46:41 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    I can also ask my RC to nominate him, if he wants to be
    nominated...

    Nominated for what?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Nov 16 16:34:51 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-16 06:08:10, you wrote to me:

    I know golded can when properly configured.

    If so then please explain "CHRS: UTF-8 2" with respect to FTS-5003. Also golded corrupts utf-8 characters (same with msged) when it tries to actually use them, with or without a CHRS flag. I haven't noticed if it makes adjustments when it encounters a TZUTC flag. Does it?

    I'm no expert on this. I know there are people that succesfully use golded (and maybe an external editor), to read and write messages that contain valid utf-8. The experts are in the UTF area.

    If you don't like what they do, you should join them, so you can
    change that! ;)

    I'll get right on that.

    If you're serious, there should be elections for new members in the coming months...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Nov 16 16:37:14 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-16 06:46:41, you wrote to me:

    I can also ask my RC to nominate him, if he wants to be
    nominated...

    Nominated for what?

    FTSC member,

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Mon Nov 16 07:49:42 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    If you're serious, there should be elections for new members in
    the coming months...

    What if I am not serious? Will there still be elections? ;-)

    I thought they were held every year starting in October-ish.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Nis þæt þearfan hand þæt ðe þince her, ac hit is madmceoste Godes.
    What seems to you a beggar's hand is God's treasure-chest.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Nov 16 21:38:57 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-16 07:49:42, you wrote to me:

    If you're serious, there should be elections for new members in
    the coming months...

    What if I am not serious? Will there still be elections? ;-)

    ;)

    I thought they were held every year starting in October-ish.

    That was the case untill last year, when the new chairman forgot about it, and it was moved up a couple of months.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.2989 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Mon Nov 16 13:28:16 2020
    Hey Wilfred!

    That was the case untill last year, when the new chairman forgot
    about it, and it was moved up a couple of months.

    I recall that. Seems an odd thing for the chairman to forget about.

    We'll see when it comes up and in the meantime I'll think about it. Thank you for your encouragment although I have to wonder if I am not stepping into something that would be best to leave alone. It might turn out I have more impact - if indeed I have ever had any impact - as an outsider to the FTSC. From this perspective it doesn't appear being an FTSC member has any real influence over so-called standards.

    Am I missing something?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Lif sceal wið deaþe, leoht sceal wið þystrum.
    Life must be against death, light against darkness.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Coffin Point - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.2989)
  • From Charles Pierson@1:153/757.26 to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Nov 16 18:48:43 2020
    Hello, Wilfred van Velzen.
    On 11/16/20 4:37 PM you wrote:

    Hi Maurice, On 2020-11-16 06:46:41, you wrote to me:
    I can also ask my RC to nominate him, if he wants to be
    nominated...
    Nominated for what?
    FTSC member,

    Can I run for benevolent dictator for life?

    Is that a thing?

    --
    Best regards!
    Posted using Hotdoged on Android
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Houston, TX (1:153/757.26)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Nov 17 10:49:12 2020
    Hi! Maurice,

    On 16 Nov 20 06:43, you wrote to me:

    I would be happy to nominate Maurice.

    For what?

    Another nowhere avenue of 'the pursuit of adventure' in Fidonet: membership in the FTSC. That'll dull the grey matter in no time.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... I stayed up all night to see where the sun went. Then it dawned on me.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Paul Quinn on Tue Nov 17 05:05:16 2020
    Hey Paul!

    Another nowhere avenue of 'the pursuit of adventure' in Fidonet: membership in the FTSC. That'll dull the grey matter in no time.

    Something like getting a promotion just before they fire you? I've heard of that happening.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Feorma þu symle in þinum ferðe god.
    Always foster in your heart what is good.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1138 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Nov 17 15:49:22 2020
    Hi! Maurice,

    On 17 Nov 2020, Maurice Kinal said the following...

    Another nowhere avenue of 'the pursuit of adventure' in Fidonet: membership in the FTSC. That'll dull the grey matter in no time.

    Something like getting a promotion just before they fire you? I've
    heard of that happening.

    Close. It's called the 'Richard Principle': promote them on to another suck^h^h^h^hluckless supervisor.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/32)
    * Origin: Paul's Pile of Polygonal Pebbles (3:640/1138)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Paul Quinn on Tue Nov 17 06:58:10 2020
    Hey Paul!

    Close. It's called the 'Richard Principle': promote them on to
    another suck^h^h^h^hluckless supervisor.

    Supervisor of what?

    Some sort of badge or super-secret decoder ring might help attract more suckers ... errrr ... candidates.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ræd biþ nyttost, yfel unnyttost.
    Good advice is the most useful thing, bad the least useful.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Nov 17 17:28:10 2020
    Hi! Maurice,

    On 17 Nov 20 06:58, you wrote to me:

    Close. It's called the 'Richard Principle': promote them on to
    another suck^h^h^h^hluckless supervisor.

    Supervisor of what?

    Case in point: FTSC (Secretary). The subject nominee might be considered an advantageous, valued team member.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... And then there was the day when my electric nose hair trimmer shorted out. --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
    * Origin: Paul's other Linux ghizmo - a little more mobile (3:640/1384.125)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Paul Quinn on Tue Nov 17 07:56:45 2020
    Hey Paul!

    Case in point: FTSC (Secretary). The subject nominee might be
    considered an advantageous, valued team member.

    I'd advise holding out for the badge and/or super-secret decoder ring.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ne wat swetes ðanc, se þe biteres ne onbyrgeð.
    He never knows the pleasure of sweetness, who never tastes bitterness.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Nov 17 18:51:22 2020
    Hi! Maurice,

    On 17 Nov 20 07:56, you wrote to me:

    Case in point: FTSC (Secretary). The subject nominee might be
    considered an advantageous, valued team member.

    I'd advise holding out for the badge and/or super-secret decoder ring.

    Ermm... bribery won't work. You really don't know much about Fidodnet, do you. I would have volunteered you, freely.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Nobody is deafer than one who does not want to hear.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
    * Origin: Paul's other Linux ghizmo - a little more mobile (3:640/1384.125)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Nov 17 09:38:41 2020
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-16 13:28:16, you wrote to me:

    That was the case untill last year, when the new chairman forgot
    about it, and it was moved up a couple of months.

    I recall that. Seems an odd thing for the chairman to forget about.

    He was new to the job. And the FTSC is probably not very active, since the previous chairman left. But I don't really know, except I see no updated or new documents apear, so I could be wrong...

    We'll see when it comes up and in the meantime I'll think about it.
    Thank you for your encouragment although I have to wonder if I am not stepping into something that would be best to leave alone. It might
    turn out I have more impact - if indeed I have ever had any impact -
    as an outsider to the FTSC. From this perspective it doesn't appear
    being an FTSC member has any real influence over so-called standards.

    Am I missing something?

    The FTSC is about documenting current practise. So if you think you can change the standards to include general internet practise, your in the wrong place. You're probably better of in for instance NET_DEV and try to convince other developers to change their products to do so. But that can only be done in a backwards compatible way, because of all the legacy software that is still in use but can't be changed, because the developers left fidonet (a long time ago).

    And bitching about it in ASIAN_LINK has very little to no effect. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Charles Pierson on Tue Nov 17 09:48:07 2020
    Hi Charles,

    On 2020-11-16 18:48:43, you wrote to me:

    Hi Maurice, On 2020-11-16 06:46:41, you wrote to me:
    I can also ask my RC to nominate him, if he wants to be
    nominated...
    Nominated for what?
    FTSC member,

    Can I run for benevolent dictator for life?

    You can try. ;)

    Is that a thing?

    The FTSC has no real power, and you would only have a few disciples...


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Charles Pierson@1:229/426.67 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Nov 17 06:15:38 2020
    Hello, Wilfred van Velzen.
    On 11/17/20 9:48 AM you wrote:

    Nominated for what?
    FTSC member,
    Can I run for benevolent dictator for life?
    You can try. ;)
    Is that a thing?
    The FTSC has no real power, and you would only have a few
    disciples...

    Then it's not benevolent dictator for life. Pity.

    --
    Best regards!
    Posted using Hotdoged on Android
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Houston, TX (1:229/426.67)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Paul Quinn on Tue Nov 17 13:10:31 2020
    Hey Paul!

    Ermm... bribery won't work.

    I don't have any badges.

    I would have volunteered you, freely.

    What have I done to deserve it?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Werig sceal se wiþ winde roweþ.
    Weary shall he be who rows against the wind.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.0.18(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From August Abolins@2:333/808.7 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Nov 17 16:46:13 2020
    Hi Wilfred!

    15 Nov 20 20:42, you wrote to me:

    I know, and I even thought about implementing such a function in
    FMail. But it would be difficult to do it right. Because for instance there are messages without the TZUTC kludge. How do you sort those.

    Maybe the code in OpenXP can illuminate. It seems to do a very nice job of navigating the message in order and displaying the messages in a tree even when a kludge is missing.

    ...So lots of things that can go wrong, so I never took the time. ;)

    LOL. Good attitude. Focus on the things that truly matter in life.



    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sat Dec 26 14:11:16 2020
    Re: Re: slightly different format
    By: Wilfred van Velzen to Maurice Kinal on Tue Nov 17 2020 09:38 am

    Hi Maurice,

    On 2020-11-16 13:28:16, you wrote to me:

    That was the case untill last year, when the new chairman forgot
    about it, and it was moved up a couple of months.

    I recall that. Seems an odd thing for the chairman to forget about.

    He was new to the job. And the FTSC is probably not very active, since the previous chairman left. But I don't really know, except I see no updated or documents apear, so I could be wrong...

    We'll see when it comes up and in the meantime I'll think about it. Thank you for your encouragment although I have to wonder if I am not stepping into something that would be best to leave alone. It might turn out I have more impact - if indeed I have ever had any impact -
    as an outsider to the FTSC. From this perspective it doesn't appear being an FTSC member has any real influence over so-called standards.

    Am I missing something?

    The FTSC is about documenting current practise. So if you think you can chan the standards to include general internet practise, your in the wrong place. You're probably better of in for instance NET_DEV and try to convince other developers to change their products to do so. But that can only be done in a backwards compatible way, because of all the legacy software that is still i use but can't be changed, because the developers left fidonet (a long time ago).

    And bitching about it in ASIAN_LINK has very little to no effect. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.


    Grin, I've not seen the next election either but shouldn't be far off.

    xxcarol

    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Sat Dec 26 14:14:14 2020
    Re: slightly different format
    By: Maurice Kinal to Paul Quinn on Tue Nov 17 2020 01:10 pm

    Hey Paul!

    Ermm... bribery won't work.

    I don't have any badges.

    I would have volunteered you, freely.

    What have I done to deserve it?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Werig sceal se wiþ winde roweþ.
    Weary shall he be who rows against the wind.

    Hehehe, here's a little secret. Anyone can make a proposal. It just doesn't get changed to a 'standard' unless widely in use.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sat Dec 26 21:53:58 2020
    -={ Corrected DateTime for those in the know: 2020-12-26 21:53:58 +0000 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    ... Werig sceal se wiþ winde roweþ.
    Weary shall he be who rows against the wind.

    Hehehe,

    Truer words were never spoken even after well over 1000 years have gone by. Did Anglo-Saxons have fidonet nodes? If so then I think I give new meaning to backwards compatibilty.

    here's a little secret. Anyone can make a proposal. It just
    doesn't get changed to a 'standard' unless widely in use.

    So I've noticed. What do you think my odds are? So far I've only heard the word 'impossible' which is probably what motivated me to take the chance. Also without the election being called I thought I'd give it a shot if for no other reson than to increase the traffic here, and on that count I think I might have outdone even an election here would have on this regard.

    And on that note I believe I am a winner. :-)

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.0(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Dec 27 23:32:10 2020
    -={ Corrected DateTime for those in the know: 2020-12-27 15:32:10 -0800 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    Anyone can make a proposal. It just doesn't get changed to a
    'standard' unless widely in use.

    It occurs to me that 'widely in use' for something that isn't a 'standard' is going to be difficult to prove. However I am formulating an evil, demented plan that would scan msg's posted in FTSC_PUBLIC that contain the so-called corrected DateTime stamp, known as '%F %T %z' in strftime-speak, no matter where it is placed in the msg_body which includes kludges or such as in the top line of this reply or even quoted. Thus this reply if posted in FTSC_PULIC would be counted as both a post and a positive hit for the corrected DateTime stamp whereas the msg I am replying to would only be counted as a post and not as a hit for the corrected DateTime stamp.

    I haven't written the routine yet but am thinking Jan. 1, 2021 would be the target date for implimentation.

    And yes I do realize that I am a prolific poster in FTSC_PUBLIC which could be interpretted as skewing the data but to be honest I have no issue with that. How about you?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.0(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Dec 27 16:19:21 2020
    -={ Geloofwaardige datetime-stempel voor Ladysmith BC, Canada: 2020-12-27 16:19:21 -0800 }=-

    Hallo Maurice!

    And yes I do realize that I am a prolific poster in FTSC_PUBLIC
    which could be interpretted as skewing the data but to be honest
    I have no issue with that. How about you?

    Given that the "FTSC_PUBLIC conference rules" clearly states, and I quote below;

    -={ ye olde cut n' paste starts }=-
    Access:
    Read: Everyone.
    Write: Sysops, points and users of systems listed in the Fidonet
    nodelist as issued by their Zone Coordinator.
    -={ ye olde cut n' paste ends }=-

    then you can count me in. If I am not mistaken this reply would be counted as both a post and a positive hit for the corrected DateTime stamp, not to mention the two points off of 1:153/7001, especially the android tablet affectionally know as "Little Mikey's ARM". :-) If that doesn't smell of "forwards backwards compatibilty" I don't know what "forwards backwards compatibility" is.

    Het leven is goed,
    Maurice

    ... Nis þæt þearfan hand þæt ðe þince her, ac hit is madmceoste Godes.
    What seems to you a beggar's hand is God's treasure-chest.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.0(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001.4013 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Dec 27 17:20:47 2020
    --={ Corrected DateTime for Ladysmith BC, Canada: 2020-12-27 17:20:47 -0800 }=-

    Hey Maurice!

    If that doesn't smell of "forwards backwards compatibilty" I
    don't know what "forwards backwards compatibility" is.

    Finally something I can sink my teeth into. I will definetly jump on this bandwagon.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Gyf þu well sprece, wyrc æfter swa.
    If you speak well, act accordingly.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.0(1)-release (aarch64-unknown-linux-android)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's ARM - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001.4013)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Jan 1 09:43:53 2021
    Re: slightly different format
    By: Maurice Kinal to Carol Shenkenberger on Sat Dec 26 2020 09:53 pm

    -={ Corrected DateTime for those in the know: 2020-12-26 21:53:58 +0000 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    ... Werig sceal se wiþ winde roweþ.
    Weary shall he be who rows against the wind.

    Hehehe,

    Truer words were never spoken even after well over 1000 years have gone by. Did Anglo-Saxons have fidonet nodes? If so then I think I give new meaning backwards compatibilty.

    here's a little secret. Anyone can make a proposal. It just
    doesn't get changed to a 'standard' unless widely in use.

    So I've noticed. What do you think my odds are? So far I've only heard the word 'impossible' which is probably what motivated me to take the chance. A without the election being called I thought I'd give it a shot if for no oth reson than to increase the traffic here, and on that count I think I might h outdone even an election here would have on this regard.

    And on that note I believe I am a winner. :-)

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.

    Well, from what I see it's the normal resistance, mostly because the approach was more like 'asking them' so got the problems. The way to do it is write it, then leave room for a cross compatible (back compatible) mode as a 3rd party utility. Best to make one for that too along with it. Open source it and has a chance, then make proposal.

    It's not for the FTSC to deny a *proposal*. It's only for them to document when it becomes a STANDARD.

    Eventually proposals go to a backup library if not used. The only ones that completely went away seem to be the FAQ series, which *documented* existing standards but was never a proposal (it was due to be written to one but was deleted somewhere between 2006-2008 it seems).

    Recently recovered a partial document that clearly was my own wording (hard for me to not recognize my own) but had other edits in another's style added to it. Possibly Ozzy Nixon? Not sure.

    Planning to do some work on it this weekend.

    All the document does is piece together some of the variety in nodelist 'styles' into a preferred format easier for developers to base nodelist tools on. For ex: Special ports go after the Connectivity tab (IBN etc.) and INA carries no port but has the FQDN. FQDN for a specific connection can be added after connecitvity port if different from INA and in which case by preference, over rides INA when using that connection protocol.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jan 1 20:58:08 2021
    Hey Carol!

    Well, from what I see it's the normal resistance

    Which is much less than I usually got there when bringing up such topics in the past. Mind you most (all?) of that came from the previous moderator/chairperson.

    Most interesting was all the real feedback posting the major alteration to fts-0001.016 generated within FTSC_PUBLIC. I haven't see that happen since ... forever?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Mon sceal... gebidan þæs he gebædan ne mæg.
    One must wait for what cannot be hastened.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Jan 1 10:06:38 2021
    Re: the fix is in
    By: Maurice Kinal to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Dec 27 2020 11:32 pm

    -={ Corrected DateTime for those in the know: 2020-12-27 15:32:10 -0800 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    Anyone can make a proposal. It just doesn't get changed to a 'standard' unless widely in use.

    It occurs to me that 'widely in use' for something that isn't a 'standard' i going to be difficult to prove. However I am formulating an evil, demented plan that would scan msg's posted in FTSC_PUBLIC that contain the so-called corrected DateTime stamp, known as '%F %T %z' in strftime-speak, no matter where it is placed in the msg_body which includes kludges or such as in the line of this reply or even quoted. Thus this reply if posted in FTSC_PULIC would be counted as both a post and a positive hit for the corrected DateTim stamp whereas the msg I am replying to would only be counted as a post and n as a hit for the corrected DateTime stamp.

    I haven't written the routine yet but am thinking Jan. 1, 2021 would be the target date for implimentation.

    And yes I do realize that I am a prolific poster in FTSC_PUBLIC which could interpretted as skewing the data but to be honest I have no issue with that. How about you?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.

    I think for a proper test, you'll have count by posting site address. Regardless of how many users, it's how many BBSes are using it that matters. Either way, the issue is not to try to prove it's already a standard.

    Proposal is first step....
    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Wed Jan 6 18:40:50 2021
    Re: slightly different format
    By: Maurice Kinal to Carol Shenkenberger on Fri Jan 01 2021 08:58 pm

    Hey Carol!

    Well, from what I see it's the normal resistance

    Which is much less than I usually got there when bringing up such topics in past. Mind you most (all?) of that came from the previous moderator/chairperson.

    Most interesting was all the real feedback posting the major alteration to fts-0001.016 generated within FTSC_PUBLIC. I haven't see that happen since forever?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Mon sceal... gebidan þæs he gebædan ne mæg.
    One must wait for what cannot be hastened.

    I'm a little behind there but I'll catch up.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Maurice Kinal@2:280/464.113 to Carol Shenkenberger on Wed Jan 6 20:19:59 2021
    Hey Carol!

    I'm a little behind there but I'll catch up.

    I replied to this on the node but am having some connection issues so I'm going to see what happens when I use this link. Please feel free to ignore this reply.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ne wurðe þe næfre to þys wa, þæt ðu þe ne wene betran.
    Never become so sorrowful that you do not hope for better things.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint - Ladysmith BC, Canada (2:280/464.113)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Thu Jan 7 03:58:53 2021
    Hey Carol!

    I'm a little behind there but I'll catch up.

    It died down ... again ... so no rush as far as I can tell from this angle. I had plans to bring up gps/wireless wrt android systems but the release of android 10 put a crimp in that plan as it seems google is hell bent on pulling an apple wrt certain hardware and compatibility issues with the software I was planning to encorporate on a tablet I happen to have handy for such plans.

    Oh well. Live and learn eh?

    In the meantime I am remaining quiet ... for now. I was hoping there would be an election call to pick up the slack.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað.
    Mind must be the greater, as our strength diminishes.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Sat Jan 30 12:44:59 2021
    Re: slightly different format
    By: Maurice Kinal to Carol Shenkenberger on Wed Jan 06 2021 08:19 pm

    Hey Carol!

    I'm a little behind there but I'll catch up.

    I replied to this on the node but am having some connection issues so I'm go to see what happens when I use this link. Please feel free to ignore this reply.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Ne wurðe þe næfre to þys wa, þæt ðu þe ne wene betran.
    Never become so sorrowful that you do not hope for better things.

    It's ok! I just spent a 3 week very heavy work schedule with 3 RADM briefs all within the same week. Lots of work! BBS sat to the side.
    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sat Jan 30 18:24:24 2021
    -={ 2021-01-30 18:24:24.737908806+00:00 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    It's ok! I just spent a 3 week very heavy work schedule with 3
    RADM briefs all within the same week. Lots of work! BBS sat to
    the side.

    Sounds to me like standard operating procedures. From this angle it appears you didn't miss anything so I agree that 'it's ok!'

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Soþ hit sylf acyþeð.
    Truth will make itself known.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@1:275/100 to Maurice Kinal on Sat Jan 30 13:42:25 2021
    Re: slightly different format
    By: Maurice Kinal to Carol Shenkenberger on Sat Jan 30 2021 06:24 pm

    -={ 2021-01-30 18:24:24.737908806+00:00 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    It's ok! I just spent a 3 week very heavy work schedule with 3
    RADM briefs all within the same week. Lots of work! BBS sat to
    the side.

    Sounds to me like standard operating procedures. From this angle it appears you didn't miss anything so I agree that 'it's ok!'

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Soþ hit sylf acyþeð.
    Truth will make itself known.

    Hehehe, just a minor spat as the FTSC election comes up, but it was Monday. See it soon!

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
    * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sat Jan 30 19:54:28 2021
    -={ 2021-01-30 19:54:28.884477012+00:00 }=-

    Hey Carol!

    just a minor spat as the FTSC election comes up

    I saw that ... not the spat but the election warning shot.

    See it soon!

    Eyes are open.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Wa bið þam þe sceal of langoþe leofes abidan.
    Woe it is for the one who must wait in longing for the beloved.
    --- GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-motorshed-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)