• ncurses

    From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Sep 10 15:32:44 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    Did you mention something recently about the latest ncurses acting up? I just upgraded today to ncurses-6.0+20170902-1 and some things seem to be displaying odd and/or different from how they were before I upgraded. I had though I remember you saying something about it in the last month or so but I wasn't 100% sure.

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Sun Sep 10 21:21:06 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    Did you mention something recently about the latest ncurses
    acting up?

    Yes I did but it really isn't ncurses that is acting up. Rather it is ncurses apps that use libmenu, libform, etc. that have issues with 6.0. So far it hasn't really been an issue with me personally but I can see how it would be extremely annoying to users that thrive on those sorts of things. I am sure an
    upgrade of those apps would resolve the issue(s) but in certain cases I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening.

    seem to be displaying odd and/or different from how they were
    before I upgraded

    Sounds familiar. The only fidonet editors I've tried since upgrading ncurses has been golded and msged and noticed they don't appreciate 6.0. Back when 6.0
    first came out I tried using both 5.9 and 6.0 and that seems to have satisfied the older apps. I might do that again or just revert back to 5.9 if push comes
    to shove which is unlikey.

    I remember you saying something about it in the last month or so
    but I wasn't 100% sure

    Same here but I don't recall exactly what app was at the heart of the something. Probably golded. I didn't try any of the msged menuing templates but I am willing to bet there is a problem there as well.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Sun Sep 10 20:20:10 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    On Sun Sep 10 2017 21:21:06, Maurice Kinal wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    Yes I did but it really isn't ncurses that is acting up. Rather it is ncurses apps that use libmenu, libform, etc. that have issues with
    6.0. So far it hasn't really been an issue with me personally but I
    can see how it would be extremely annoying to users that thrive on
    those sorts of things. I am sure an upgrade of those apps would
    resolve the issue(s) but in certain cases I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening.

    Ah, well, maybe they'll push those apps out soon after.

    seem to be displaying odd and/or different from how they were
    before I upgraded

    Sounds familiar. The only fidonet editors I've tried since upgrading ncurses has been golded and msged and noticed they don't appreciate
    6.0. Back when 6.0 first came out I tried using both 5.9 and 6.0 and
    that seems to have satisfied the older apps. I might do that again or just revert back to 5.9 if push comes to shove which is unlikey.

    Msged didn't have any problems here, just Golded. Msged doesn't use ANSI line drawing characters, only ASCII, so it's not really affected. Golded, however, even while ncurses was changing those ANSI line drawings to q, x, and a couple other letters, now it's way worse, as in half the screen missing at times.

    Same here but I don't recall exactly what app was at the heart of the something. Probably golded. I didn't try any of the msged menuing templates but I am willing to bet there is a problem there as well.

    Yeah that was it. My BBS software's configuration program also uses ncurses, and looks pretty bad there too.

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Mon Sep 11 01:55:20 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    Golded, however, even while ncurses was changing those ANSI line
    drawings to q, x, and a couple other letters, now it's way worse,
    as in half the screen missing at times.

    Ah yes! Now I remember. Also noticed that sometimes the vga colours (color) weren't quite right for whatever reason. I still see that in a few apps that require ncurses but still use straight ascii characters such as msged. I'll have a looksee soon and see if that rears it's ugly head.

    My BBS software's configuration program also uses ncurses, and
    looks pretty bad there too.

    Same thing with older kernel source's 'menuconfig' app except the kernel people
    were on top of that issue quite quickly and had a fix for it. I am betting whatever fix they applied to that function might be a fix for your issue(s). The golded one is a tad more involved since they don't allow for WIDEC which is
    now the default in ncurses. In 5.9 the distributions were providing both the WIDEC (eg libncursesw and libncurses) whereas now I only see libncursesw. Mind
    you the version I have onboard was built by nyself and I never bothered with non-WIDEC and haven't for ages now.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Sep 11 16:29:46 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    On Mon Sep 11 2017 01:55:20, Maurice Kinal wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    Ah yes! Now I remember. Also noticed that sometimes the vga colours (color) weren't quite right for whatever reason. I still see that in
    a few apps that require ncurses but still use straight ascii
    characters such as msged. I'll have a looksee soon and see if that
    rears it's ugly head.

    The latest version on github is now ncurses-6.0+20170909-1 but isn't in the Archlinux repos yet. I downgraded from ncurses-6.0+20170902-1 back to ncurses-6.0+20170527-1 and everything is back to normal. So somewhere in a version between those (there was at least a few) or 0902 is the culprit. I've blocked my package manager from upgrading any further until the next version is
    out to test.

    My BBS software's configuration program also uses ncurses, and
    looks pretty bad there too.

    Same thing with older kernel source's 'menuconfig' app except the
    kernel people were on top of that issue quite quickly and had a fix
    for it. I am betting whatever fix they applied to that function might
    be a fix for your issue(s). The golded one is a tad more involved
    since they don't allow for WIDEC which is now the default in ncurses.
    In 5.9 the distributions were providing both the WIDEC (eg libncursesw
    and libncurses) whereas now I only see libncursesw. Mind you the
    version I have onboard was built by nyself and I never bothered with non-WIDEC and haven't for ages now.

    Golded does indeed have a compile option for wide ncurses support which I use here when building, but who knows how long ago that was implemented. However, I'd be interested in knowing what the kernel people did for the menuconfig app,
    as I'm fairly certain I just read somewhere that ncurses made some changes recently that required other software to change something - if something was originally done wrong (ie: mixing printf and printw or something in those lines).

    Who knows. It's working again with a bit lesser of a version so I'm not too worried about it at the moment, and at least someone else has seen the issue and I'm not crazy (at least in this specific case, anyways). ;)

    Archlinux IRC I get responses like:

    Them: "I haven't seen any issues with ncurses. But have you tried a different emulator?"

    Me: "I didn't mention anything about X, or any window manager, or even anything
    like Xterm, etc. Why would you think I was using a terminal emulator? I'm in a TTY console."

    Them: "My bad."

    <shaking my head>

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Mon Sep 11 23:57:51 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    The latest version on github is now ncurses-6.0+20170909-1

    I am using the original GNU release which at ftp.gnu.org the datetime stamp shows "Aug 09 2015". Currently I am not patching it. Also at one point I was
    using the "--with-abi-version=5" when building but that was a couple years ago and since then most of the apps requiring libncurses have long since caught up to the changes and I would have to rebuild them in order to properly check and make sure the version-reversion doesn't break anything.

    Golded does indeed have a compile option for wide ncurses support

    I seem to recall that and as of my last attempt with golded none of it worked.
    I may try again if I use the "--with-abi-version=5" option in the future. Definetly thinking about it.

    I'd be interested in knowing what the kernel people did for the
    menuconfig app

    Me too and might actually trace the change(s) from a kernel version prior to the release of 6.0 and compare that to a new kernel version's menuconfig usage.

    Archlinux IRC I get responses like:

    Not quite as bad as some of the responses seen on Ubuntu wikis. For far too many of them even an xterm is unheard of. Kids these days eh? :::sigh:::

    If I break down and try a --with-abi-version=5 default ncurses I'll let you know if that fixes the golded issue. Also if it doesn't break anything else of
    greater importance I may go back to that instead. I personally don't use ncurses so it really doesn't matter to me but there are apps I do care about that do and as long as they are happy with 5.9 then that might be the best way to proceed.

    I have my doubts though.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Sep 11 19:30:30 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    On Mon Sep 11 2017 23:57:50, Maurice Kinal wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    The latest version on github is now ncurses-6.0+20170909-1

    I am using the original GNU release which at ftp.gnu.org the datetime stamp shows "Aug 09 2015". Currently I am not patching it. Also at
    one point I was using the "--with-abi-version=5" when building but
    that was a couple years ago and since then most of the apps requiring libncurses have long since caught up to the changes and I would have
    to rebuild them in order to properly check and make sure the version-reversion doesn't break anything.

    And that one has the same issues as what I'm having?

    Or at some point did you try a newer version and then go back to a 2015 release?

    These days, ncurses development has moved to github and that seems to be where the Archlinux maintainers are getting it from.

    Golded does indeed have a compile option for wide ncurses support

    I seem to recall that and as of my last attempt with golded none of it worked. I may try again if I use the "--with-abi-version=5" option in
    the future. Definetly thinking about it.

    There's currently only one version newer than the one I'm using, so since I was
    able to downgrade it easily and put a block on my package manager to not update
    it until I tell it otherwise, I'll just wait for the next version to come out and give it a shot.

    Me too and might actually trace the change(s) from a kernel version
    prior to the release of 6.0 and compare that to a new kernel version's menuconfig usage.

    I'm not sure what you would find prior to the release of 6.0, I've been using 6.0 for quite some time now without issue, until a recent September 2nd upgrade. Somewhere during the past 4 months something changed. Archlinux never introduced any of the packages between May 27th and Sept 2nd though, so I don't
    know exactly where, when, or how it happened.

    Archlinux IRC I get responses like:

    Not quite as bad as some of the responses seen on Ubuntu wikis. For
    far too many of them even an xterm is unheard of. Kids these days eh?

    Mind you, Ubuntu is one of the main distros introducing new people to Linux. I usually expect that from the Ubuntu forums. But Archlinux? <sigh>

    If I break down and try a --with-abi-version=5 default ncurses I'll
    let you know if that fixes the golded issue. Also if it doesn't break anything else of greater importance I may go back to that instead. I personally don't use ncurses so it really doesn't matter to me but
    there are apps I do care about that do and as long as they are happy
    with 5.9 then that might be the best way to proceed.

    I have my doubts though.

    I don't think that would have much to do with my issue anyways. My issue happened during one of the most recent patches. Patched 6.0 didn't give me any issues until this last update.

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Tue Sep 12 00:56:23 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    Or at some point did you try a newer version and then go back to
    a 2015 release?

    No. I've stuck with the 2015 release since it was released back then. I am not sure about golded since I don't often look at it since I don't use/need it.
    Same with msged. I do those more out of curiousity.

    Patched 6.0 didn't give me any issues until this last update.

    I should probably patch just to see if the same problem exists as with the unpatched ncurses before getting too experimental.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Sep 11 20:41:22 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    On Tue Sep 12 2017 00:56:22, Maurice Kinal wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    Or at some point did you try a newer version and then go back to
    a 2015 release?

    No. I've stuck with the 2015 release since it was released back then.
    I am not sure about golded since I don't often look at it since I
    don't use/need it. Same with msged. I do those more out of
    curiousity.

    And problems like that were in that release too?

    Patched 6.0 didn't give me any issues until this last update.

    I should probably patch just to see if the same problem exists as with
    the unpatched ncurses before getting too experimental.

    If you do, go with the git versions by date. At 20170527 I had no issues. Some time after that all hell broke loose. ;)

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Tue Sep 12 02:58:46 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    And problems like that were in that release too?

    Yes.

    At 20170527 I had no issues.

    I just tried 20160910 and see the same issues but didn't try golded+ yet. While we're talking about it, are you doing both libncurses and libncursesw? I
    am/was just providing libncursesw.

    At 20170527 I had no issues.

    I'll check and see later after I redo golded with 20160910 now that I have that
    patched to that level.

    Some time after that all hell broke loose.

    That can and does happen.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Mon Sep 11 22:37:40 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    On Tue Sep 12 2017 02:58:46, Maurice Kinal wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    I just tried 20160910 and see the same issues but didn't try golded+
    yet. While we're talking about it, are you doing both libncurses and libncursesw? I am/was just providing libncursesw.

    I would assume both? I have both libncurses.so as well as libncursesw.so, and /usr/include/ncurses.h has replacements and other settings for both.

    At 20170527 I had no issues.

    I'll check and see later after I redo golded with 20160910 now that I
    have that patched to that level.

    Take a look at 'screen'. I just installed it, and used that to run golded in. Now I'm even getting the ansi line drawing characters that golded was built with, rather than ncurses changing them to ascii letters.

    Some time after that all hell broke loose.

    That can and does happen.

    Then you just tinker with it a bit, and find other things to try! ;)

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Tue Sep 12 05:26:51 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    I have both libncurses.so as well as libncursesw.so

    Okee dokee. I decided to go for the gold with just libncursesw and the latest git version as shown below;

    ----- '<Esc>:read !tic -V' starts
    ncurses 6.0.20170909
    ----- '<Esc>:read !tic -V' ends

    I haven't figured out a better way to fetch the installed version of ncurses.

    Anyhow I then compiled the latest version of the golded+ source I could find - gpsrc-115-20170303.tgz - which at the moment I don't have the URL handy but will find it if it becomes important. I used 'make PLATFORM=lnx WIDE_NCURSES=1' to build it and once built fired it up and BINGO!!! It works with the UTF8 line drawing characters just like mom used to do. :::evil grin:::

    Take a look at 'screen'. I just installed it

    I haven't used it for ages now but now that you bring it up it seems like it would have been a good idea with the previous attempt where golded+ wasn't playing nice with ncurses.

    Then you just tinker with it a bit, and find other things to try!

    Speaking of which, instead of 'screen' try tmux. I tried that years ago and liked it better than 'screen' but neither played nice with a framebuffer linux terminal.

    Anyhow it appears I have a 'fixed' golded+ working now ... still using vim as this reply shows. ;-)

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Sep 12 16:07:16 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    On Tue Sep 12 2017 05:26:50, Maurice Kinal wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    I have both libncurses.so as well as libncursesw.so

    Okee dokee. I decided to go for the gold with just libncursesw and
    the latest git version as shown below;

    ----- '<Esc>:read !tic -V' starts
    ncurses 6.0.20170909
    ----- '<Esc>:read !tic -V' ends

    Sounds good. I haven't checked to see if the latest was available via pacman just yet, but I will. ;)

    Anyhow I then compiled the latest version of the golded+ source I
    could find - gpsrc-115-20170303.tgz - which at the moment I don't have
    the URL handy but will find it if it becomes important.

    No need, really. I get it via CVS.

    'make PLATFORM=lnx WIDE_NCURSES=1' to build it and once built fired it
    up and BINGO!!! It works with the UTF8 line drawing characters just
    like mom used to do. :::evil grin:::

    Odd. When I fire up golded without screen it changes all the line drawing characters to ascii letters, defined in ncurses.h. Now I begin to wonder if you
    must _only_ have wide ncurses installed in order for golded's make option for WIDE_NCURSES=1 to actually work as expected.

    Take a look at 'screen'. I just installed it

    I haven't used it for ages now but now that you bring it up it seems
    like it would have been a good idea with the previous attempt where golded+ wasn't playing nice with ncurses.

    Sure, but now that you did a little tinkering, you have an even better working ncurses! ;)

    Then you just tinker with it a bit, and find other things to try!

    Speaking of which, instead of 'screen' try tmux. I tried that years
    ago and liked it better than 'screen' but neither played nice with a framebuffer linux terminal.

    Oddly enough, I'm fairly certain ArchlinuxARM uses a framebuffer, but I have no
    idea what it is and don't remember installing it myself. Maybe the RPi3 has one
    built in? I've seen 4 penguins and the tie-dye splash screen on bootup, though..

    Anyhow it appears I have a 'fixed' golded+ working now ... still using
    vim as this reply shows. ;-)

    Well of course! Why change it up now? ;)

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Tue Sep 12 22:13:14 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    Now I begin to wonder if you must _only_ have wide ncurses
    installed in order for golded's make option for WIDE_NCURSES=1 to
    actually work as expected.

    Interesting. I may have to check that theory later although the previous build
    with the older ncurses was also WIDEC only with symlinks forcing the issue.

    No need, really. I get it via CVS.

    When was the last time they updated it? 20170303? ;-)

    you have an even better working ncurses!

    Other than golded+, I haven't noticed any improvement with the few apps I have onboard that use/need it as a dependency. Mind you I haven't rebuilt them all with the new ncurses development schtuff so there might be something there.

    I'm fairly certain ArchlinuxARM uses a framebuffer

    Yes it does. I can confirm that. However I had too many issues with the linux
    terminal and their supplied systemd to make a good judgement call but can say that a sysvinit system (slackwarearm) worked great even with a customized 64 bit kernel that I built on a crosscompiler with the idea in mind of getting a native customized aarch64 working on the raspi3 I was playing with. I think I wasn't too far from a stable one but I can't say with absolute certainty given what I saw on ArchlinuxARM's aarch64.

    Well of course! Why change it up now? ;)

    Especially after just under 20 years of doing fidonet this way. Also I have been using vi since the late 1980's and have yet to find a better editor. I got spoiled very early on.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Sep 12 17:38:22 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    On Tue Sep 12 2017 22:13:14, Maurice Kinal wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    Now I begin to wonder if you must _only_ have wide ncurses
    installed in order for golded's make option for WIDE_NCURSES=1 to
    actually work as expected.

    Interesting. I may have to check that theory later although the
    previous build with the older ncurses was also WIDEC only with
    symlinks forcing the issue.

    I was just posing a guess. No matter what I've done, running golded in a TTY changed the line drawing borders to ascii characters, ie: upper left corner = l, hyphen = q. They are definitely defined in ncurses.h, but even trying to change those and recompile golded didn't work.

    tmux and screen (I've since removed screen since tmux is lightyears better) have both made things look much better at least. tmux even better now. It uses the real up, down, left, and right arrows as well as some ansi block drawings (ie: the scrollbar with it's solid block foreground and shaded block background.

    While it would be nice if I didn't need it at all, at least I finally found something that makes it look a little nicer since I'm not moving to X any time in the near future. ;)

    No need, really. I get it via CVS.

    When was the last time they updated it? 20170303? ;-)

    Precisely. There's just so many sites with so many different archived bundles (one guy even compiles random binaries and releases them in the filegate) out there that I care more to get it from the one and only source.

    Well of course! Why change it up now? ;)

    Especially after just under 20 years of doing fidonet this way. Also
    I have been using vi since the late 1980's and have yet to find a
    better editor. I got spoiled very early on.

    I've also used vim and am currently using nano. I agree they're great editors. However, I only use golded for the nicely formatted area list (since I carry about 200 echos) and whatever the message reader can handle. Then when things get tricky and some non-ascii stuff gets posted, I just reply to the message so
    it shells out to vim or nano to read it in it's original glory.

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Maurice Kinal on Tue Sep 12 17:53:28 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    On Tue Sep 12 2017 22:13:14, Maurice Kinal wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    Interesting. I may have to check that theory later although the
    previous build with the older ncurses was also WIDEC only with
    symlinks forcing the issue.

    And FYI, I upgraded back to ncurses-6.0+20170902-1 which is the latest available in the Archlinux package manager, and while it looks gross without tmux, it looks great with it. ;)

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Tue Sep 12 23:26:44 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    I was just posing a guess.

    Understood but it still got me thinking. Whether or not I act upon it is still
    a debatable subject.

    but even trying to change those and recompile golded didn't work.

    Given the above I am guessing the latest ncurses might have made all the difference.

    I've since removed screen since tmux is lightyears better

    Cool. That is what I thought years ago when I first stumbled across it. I may
    have to have another looksee soon.

    I've also used vim and am currently using nano.

    For sure nano make an excellent fidonet editor in conjunction with the WeBeBashing scripts now that wordwrapping is behaving itself. Most definetly lean and now way more mean methinks. I can willingly get behind it. :-)

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Nicholas Boel on Tue Sep 12 23:38:04 2017
    Hey Nicholas!

    and while it looks gross without tmux, it looks great with it.

    Excellent.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Nicholas Boel on Wed Sep 13 09:08:24 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX
    Hi Nicholas,

    On 2017-09-12 17:53:28, you wrote to Maurice Kinal:

    Interesting. I may have to check that theory later although the
    previous build with the older ncurses was also WIDEC only with
    symlinks forcing the issue.

    And FYI, I upgraded back to ncurses-6.0+20170902-1 which is the latest available in the Archlinux package manager, and while it looks gross without tmux, it looks great with it. ;)

    Strange, I also see a difference on a remote console (putty), when starting golded directly or in tmux. Although I already had most line drawing character showing correctly. But now for instance the character marking the current message in the message list is showing correctly. The Ctrl-Z key is now working
    to close and save the message you are editting.

    And the UTF-8 characters you sign your message with are now also showing up readable:

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."

    Are they quoted back alright?

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Nicholas Boel on Wed Sep 13 09:04:41 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX

    Hi Nicholas,

    On 2017-09-12 17:53:28, you wrote to Maurice Kinal:

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."

    This is without tmux...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Sep 13 15:19:40 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Wed Sep 13 2017 09:08:24, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX

    Not a lot of conversation in LINUX, so since I was speaking directly to Maurice, I wrote it here instead. *shrug*

    But if another conversation starts because of your cross-post, then you accomplished something! ;)

    And FYI, I upgraded back to ncurses-6.0+20170902-1 which is the
    latest available in the Archlinux package manager, and while it
    looks gross without tmux, it looks great with it. ;)

    Strange, I also see a difference on a remote console (putty), when starting golded directly or in tmux. Although I already had most line

    That's the same way I'm going about it. Remote console via putty with tmux on my RPi3.

    drawing character showing correctly. But now for instance the
    character marking the current message in the message list is showing correctly. The Ctrl-Z key is now working to close and save the message
    you are editting.

    Line drawing characters display fine in X (xterm, gnome-terminal, konsole, etc), but ever since I went strictly UTF-8 it wouldn't display them properly in
    a TTY until I started using tmux.

    As for the character marking the current message, you're referring to the actual arrow and not ">", right? That changed here as well.

    And by CTRL-Z I'm guessing you're referring to the internal golded editor? I don't use that here, so CTRL-X in nano or :x in vim. ;)

    And the UTF-8 characters you sign your message with are now also
    showing up readable:

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."

    Are they quoted back alright?

    Yes. And if you used an unicode capable editor you would know that! ;)

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Sep 13 15:26:46 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Wed Sep 13 2017 09:04:40, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."

    This is without tmux...

    Still quotes back fine. So at least you don't alter it like most others do!

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Sean Dennis@1:18/200 to Maurice Kinal on Wed Sep 13 17:26:49 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    12 Sep 17 23:38 at you wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    and while it looks gross without tmux, it looks great with it.

    Excellent.

    I just tried tmux. Talk about making my life easier when I work on the BBS server via SSH. :) Thanks for bring this up. A great solution for me and easier than screen to use for me.

    Later,
    Sean

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Sean Dennis on Wed Sep 13 21:58:30 2017
    Hey Sean!

    I just tried tmux. Talk about making my life easier when I work
    on the BBS server via SSH. :)

    I can see that being extremely handy.

    Thanks for bring this up.

    Actually we should probably thank Nicholas for bringing up 'screen' which is what reminded me about tmux. Strange how that sort of thing snowballs once the
    seed is planted.

    A great solution for me and easier than screen to use for me.

    Agreed. It would be even more perfect if framebuffer graphic apps (eg fbi and mplayer) could output to a tmux window. I believe that would be the awesome although as is tmux is just fine.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Nicholas Boel on Thu Sep 14 09:14:51 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX
    Hi Nicholas,

    On 2017-09-13 15:19:40, you wrote to me:

    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX

    Not a lot of conversation in LINUX, so since I was speaking directly to Maurice, I wrote it here instead. *shrug*

    These messages are about linux matters, so the LINUX area is appropriate. And Maurice is there too. ;)

    drawing character showing correctly. But now for instance the
    character marking the current message in the message list is showing
    correctly. The Ctrl-Z key is now working to close and save the message
    you are editting.

    Line drawing characters display fine in X (xterm, gnome-terminal, konsole, etc), but ever since I went strictly UTF-8 it wouldn't display them properly in a TTY until I started using tmux.

    As for the character marking the current message, you're referring to the actual arrow and not ">", right? That changed here as well.

    Yes the actual arrow. Without tmux there is just an extra space that makes the columns of that line not aligned properly (in my putty window)

    And by CTRL-Z I'm guessing you're referring to the internal golded
    editor?

    Yes.

    I don't use that here, so CTRL-X in nano or :x in vim. ;)

    Ok.

    And the UTF-8 characters you sign your message with are now also
    showing up readable:

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."

    Are they quoted back alright?

    Yes. And if you used an unicode capable editor you would know that! ;)

    It looked ok in golded under tmux on my setup, but you never know how it displays on other systems when it's send out...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Nicholas Boel on Thu Sep 14 09:23:12 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX
    Hi Nicholas,

    On 2017-09-13 15:26:46, you wrote to me:

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."

    This is without tmux...

    Still quotes back fine. So at least you don't alter it like most others
    do!

    I'm not doing anything special, just reading/writing in golded-lnx...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Sep 14 08:33:25 2017
    Hey Wilfred!

    And Maurice is there too

    Yes I am. However it doesn't matter to me where it is discussed.

    BTW instead of using 'tmux -c ge' (gedlnx here) try using 'tmux new ge' instead. It will automagically exit the tmux enviroment when exiting golded, or at least it does here. Having said that, golded works fine without tmux but
    then again I have a proper utf-8 enviroment as well as a version of ncurses that golded can live with. The only problem with mutilbyte characters is that the cursor doesn't align itself behind the last character typed in edit mode since it falsely counts characters as simgle bytes when they obviously aren't.
    For example "A Møøse once bit my sister..." will look like this in the golded
    editor;

    "A Møøse once bit my sister... _"

    Note I am using the underscore to show where the cursor will line up in that sentence where it *should* line up as follows;

    "A Møøse once bit my sister..._"

    Note the extra two spaces where there are none at the end of the faulty golded line. Oh well ... getting closer ... not that it really matters. Does it?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Thu Sep 14 11:39:05 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2017-09-14 08:33:25, you wrote to me:

    BTW instead of using 'tmux -c ge' (gedlnx here) try using 'tmux new
    ge' instead.

    That also works, and I get the same effect (screen wise), as if starting 'ge' from within 'tmux' when started without options.

    It will automagically exit the tmux enviroment when exiting golded, or
    at least it does here.

    '-c' also closes tmux when you exit golded...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Sep 14 16:38:29 2017
    Hey Wilfred!

    That also works, and I get the same effect (screen wise), as if
    starting 'ge' from within 'tmux' when started without options.

    I get the same when starting gedlnx without tmux, without the tmux green status
    bar at the bottom.

    As far as I am personally concerned it really doesn't matter since native utf-8
    editting has worked for ages now without having to resort to putting up with any binary message formats. Text has always been the best option and it is no wonder that text messaging with utf-8 characters in linux is the way to go even
    with fidonet. The real problem is with the typical ftn formats (eg Squish and Jam) and the editors relying on those formats. Get rid of those and everything
    works fine ... with or without tmux.

    I think Sean has the right idea for tmux and with vi-like bindings on the commandline between two terminals - one on the host, the other connected on the
    remote via ssh - all sorts of extremely handy things are possible, even text messaging without the need for ftn abandonware with all it's obsolete and/or corrupted so-called standards. Having said that, I don't mind testing out things like golded if it potentially can make a difference. As we speak the misalignment of the cursor is the most annoying bug.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Sep 14 15:34:06 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Thu Sep 14 2017 09:14:50, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    Not a lot of conversation in LINUX, so since I was speaking
    directly to Maurice, I wrote it here instead. *shrug*

    These messages are about linux matters, so the LINUX area is
    appropriate. And Maurice is there too. ;)

    You moved it, and other conversation may stem up from there. But I wouldn't expect others to move their conversation where you think it's appropriate. ;)

    This is and has been a "general discussion" echo ever since Carol stopped being
    ZC6, IIRC. So let's not start any Fidonet politics in here please, mmkay?

    As for the character marking the current message, you're
    referring to the actual arrow and not ">", right? That changed
    here as well.

    Yes the actual arrow. Without tmux there is just an extra space that
    makes the columns of that line not aligned properly (in my putty
    window)

    What settings are you using in putty for line drawing characters? I had a ">" prior to using tmux. Then I had an arrow with screen, and now I believe I have a plus with tmux. ;)

    It looked ok in golded under tmux on my setup, but you never know how
    it displays on other systems when it's send out...

    I was just joking, since you could have read and written UTF-8 on that machine long ago with an external editor, is all. ;)

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Sep 14 15:40:34 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Thu Sep 14 2017 09:23:12, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    @CHRS: UTF-8 2

    Still quotes back fine. So at least you don't alter it like most
    others do!

    I'm not doing anything special, just reading/writing in golded-lnx...

    You should probably look into fixing that CHRS kludge though, though. It's easy. I'll send you the .chs file and you just plug it into your config:

    xlatcharset utf-8 utf-8 utf_utf.chs

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Thu Sep 14 23:02:57 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2017-09-14 16:38:29, you wrote to me:

    The real problem is with the typical ftn formats (eg Squish and Jam)
    and the editors relying on those formats.

    Afaik the message bases are character set agnostic, they just store bytes. It's
    the editors where the problem is...

    ... even text messaging without the need for ftn abandonware
    with all it's obsolete and/or corrupted so-called standards.

    Attacking windmills again? ;)


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Nicholas Boel on Thu Sep 14 23:04:57 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX
    Hi Nicholas,

    On 2017-09-14 15:34:06, you wrote to me:

    You moved it, and other conversation may stem up from there. But I wouldn't expect others to move their conversation where you think it's appropriate. ;)

    This is and has been a "general discussion" echo ever since Carol stopped being ZC6, IIRC. So let's not start any Fidonet politics in here please, mmkay?

    There's no politics. Just crossposting to an area where there might be a more knowledgable and interested audience...

    Yes the actual arrow. Without tmux there is just an extra space that
    makes the columns of that line not aligned properly (in my putty
    window)

    What settings are you using in putty for line drawing characters? I had a ">" prior to using tmux. Then I had an arrow with screen, and now I
    believe
    I have a plus with tmux. ;)

    I won't be at that putty terminal until monday, so remind me then for an answer. ;)


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Nicholas Boel on Thu Sep 14 23:09:29 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX
    Hi Nicholas,

    On 2017-09-14 15:40:34, you wrote to me:

    @CHRS: UTF-8 2

    Still quotes back fine. So at least you don't alter it like most
    others do!

    I'm not doing anything special, just reading/writing in golded-lnx...

    You should probably look into fixing that CHRS kludge though, though. It's easy. I'll send you the .chs file and you just plug it into your config:

    xlatcharset utf-8 utf-8 utf_utf.chs

    Ok, I could try that...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Sep 14 16:27:50 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Thu Sep 14 2017 23:04:56, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Nicholas Boel:

    There's no politics. Just crossposting to an area where there might be
    a more knowledgable and interested audience...

    You mean Benny asking if the echo is alive once every few months? ;)

    What settings are you using in putty for line drawing characters?
    I had a ">" prior to using tmux. Then I had an arrow with screen,
    and now I believe I have a plus with tmux. ;)

    I won't be at that putty terminal until monday, so remind me then for
    an answer. ;)

    Nevermind, I reversed that. In screen it was a plus sign for new messages in an
    area. In tmux it is the correct arrow.

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Sep 14 22:27:42 2017
    Hey Wilfred!

    It's the editors where the problem is...

    The problems wouldn't exist if it weren't for the formats.

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Sean Dennis@1:18/200 to Maurice Kinal on Thu Sep 14 20:47:30 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    13 Sep 17 21:58 at you wrote to me:

    I just tried tmux. Talk about making my life easier when I work
    on the BBS server via SSH. :)
    I can see that being extremely handy.

    It is incredibly handy. I am gone a lot at work and during breaks (and sometimes during slow periods) I can connect to our "employee-owned device" WiFi LAN and SSH into the BBS (we are extremely lucky to have this LAN at our particular location). I've discovered tmux has been able to help me do some bash scripting too. :D

    Actually we should probably thank Nicholas for bringing up 'screen'
    which is what reminded me about tmux. Strange how that sort of thing snowballs once the seed is planted.

    That's how good conversations all start.

    Agreed. It would be even more perfect if framebuffer graphic apps (eg
    fbi and mplayer) could output to a tmux window. I believe that would
    be the awesome although as is tmux is just fine.

    It's probably some arcane technical issue. :D

    Later,
    Sean

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)
  • From Sean Dennis@1:18/200 to Maurice Kinal on Thu Sep 14 20:51:13 2017
    Hello Maurice,

    14 Sep 17 16:38 at you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    I think Sean has the right idea for tmux and with vi-like bindings on
    the commandline between two terminals - one on the host, the other connected on the remote via ssh - all sorts of extremely handy things
    are possible, even text messaging without the need for ftn abandonware with all it's obsolete and/or corrupted so-called standards. Having
    said that, I don't mind testing out things like golded if it
    potentially can make a difference. As we speak the misalignment of
    the cursor is the most annoying bug.

    I prefer joe myself and do use it as part of my offline mail setup on my laptop. However, at times, I just like to SSH into the BBS and run GoldEd+ directly (like I am now but I am at home).

    Something you might like: JoHo of Frontdoor fame and Dale Barnes of Intermail fame have both re-connected to Fidonet and are both working on new versions of their respective programs.

    Nothing new under the sun but glad to see both back.

    Later,
    Sean

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Outpost BBS * Limestone, TN, USA (1:18/200)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Sean Dennis on Fri Sep 15 01:30:40 2017
    Hey Sean!

    I've discovered tmux has been able to help me do some bash
    scripting too. :D

    Bonus. I've been thinking about how I can encorporate tmux into the WeBeBashing thingy I've been using all these years with vim to facillitate fidonet messaging. Interesting to think about if nothing else but for sure your usage would definetly be worth pursuing. I like the idea of having two bash terminals on one display with one local and the other remote via ssh login, with the idea in mind of both being capable of vi-like keybindings so that commandline cut n' paste would be doable without a mouse would be doable.
    I am unsure at this writing about the remote's commandline being capable though
    without some further jiggery-pokery at it's end.

    It's probably some arcane technical issue.

    I am sure it is. I used to have it properly working without tmux - didn't exist or at least I wasn't aware of it back then - but only with a Matrox G200 graphics card. Also could change resolutions on the fly with that setup. Since then everything has gone downhill as far as graphics and my need for them
    are concerned. Oh well ...

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Sean Dennis on Fri Sep 15 01:48:46 2017
    Hey Sean!

    Nothing new under the sun but glad to see both back.

    I suppose. Speaking for myself I am not looking for anything newfangled but instead just bring things up to speed, such as proper datetime stamps. Also wrestling UTF-8 from the evil clutches of that corrupted, ill concieved CHRS kludge would be an excellent idea.

    As for the 8 bit codepages who care? Let JoHo and Dale Barnes wallow in the crap that the IBM/MS crowd totally screwed up over 30 years ago. :::evil grin:::

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Sep 15 11:00:16 2017
    * Originally in ASIAN_LINK
    * Crossposted in LINUX
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2017-09-14 22:27:42, you wrote to me:

    It's the editors where the problem is...

    The problems wouldn't exist if it weren't for the formats.

    Let me repeat: "Afaik the message bases are character set agnostic, they just store bytes."


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred van Velzen on Fri Sep 15 16:42:09 2017
    Hey Wilfred!

    Let me repeat: "Afaik the message bases are character set
    agnostic, they just store bytes."

    Which bytes? The unaltered original bytes or the bytes corrupted by the lack of understanding how UTF-8 characters actually work?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Maurice Kinal on Fri Sep 15 19:03:12 2017
    Hi Maurice,

    On 2017-09-15 16:42:09, you wrote to me:

    Let me repeat: "Afaik the message bases are character set
    agnostic, they just store bytes."

    Which bytes? The unaltered original bytes or the bytes corrupted by the lack of understanding how UTF-8 characters actually work?

    That's something the editor does, it has got nothing to do with the message base format.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Maurice Kinal@1:153/7001 to Wilfred van Velzen on Fri Sep 15 17:43:27 2017
    Hey Wilfred!

    That's something the editor does, it has got nothing to do with
    the message base format.

    I stand corrected. So when do you expect this will be fixed?

    Life is good,
    Maurice

    ... Don't cry for me I have vi.
    --- GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
    * Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)