• C++

    From crow@VERT/ABINARY to All on Fri Nov 8 13:54:00 2019
    Hey there.

    I'm currently a person learning Programming. Right now, I'm focusing on C and Java(I might also plan to put more focus onto Python too). But, right now, I'm wondering whether I should learn C++.

    I mean, a lot of Jobs nowadays involve or require C++. But the thing about
    C++, is it's Syntax and the fact that a lot of people say that the the
    Language is bloated and slow. I don't want a Language like that but I have
    been told to just decide for myself.

    I have learned basic Printing and getting User-Input from cplusplus.com but that's all. I mean, since I'm continuing to learn Java and since I know a bit about C, maybe it shouldn't be too hard to pick up C++.

    Now as for whether I should learn C++, should I? Is it a terrible Language due to it being "bloated" and "slow"(According to others anyway)?

    Thanks.

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  • From Digital Man@VERT to crow on Fri Nov 8 13:20:07 2019
    Re: C++
    By: crow to All on Fri Nov 08 2019 01:54 pm

    Hey there.

    I'm currently a person learning Programming. Right now, I'm focusing on C and Java(I might also plan to put more focus onto Python too). But, right now, I'm wondering whether I should learn C++.

    I mean, a lot of Jobs nowadays involve or require C++. But the thing about C++, is it's Syntax and the fact that a lot of people say that the the Language is bloated and slow. I don't want a Language like that but I have been told to just decide for myself.

    I have learned basic Printing and getting User-Input from cplusplus.com but that's all. I mean, since I'm continuing to learn Java and since I know a bit about C, maybe it shouldn't be too hard to pick up C++.

    Now as for whether I should learn C++, should I? Is it a terrible Language due to it being "bloated" and "slow"(According to others anyway)?

    C++ is definitely not "slow" by any measure, it's as "close to the hardware" as C but you do get a bit more overhead in your compiled code (compared to straight C). "bloated" is a subjective opinion, but I don't think it's any more bloated than Java, and definitely much faster than Java on average.

    C++ is object-oriented, so in that regard, is more like Java than C. Knowing C really should be a prerequisite for any C++ programmer, so I definitely think it's a good thing to learn (the K&R book and sites like hackerrank.com should be sufficient). Syntatically, Java and C++ are pretty similar.

    There are even more C-inspired languages nowadays (e.g. C#, Objective-C, JavaScript, PHP), so I think learning C is a great starting place regardless whether you plan to learn/use C++ or not.

    digital man

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Fri Nov 8 15:37:16 2019
    Re: C++
    By: Digital Man to crow on Fri Nov 08 2019 01:20 pm

    Knowing C really should be a prerequisite for any C++ programmer, so I definitely think it's a good thing to learn (the K&R book and sites like

    When I was learning programming/software engineering, the college I started off at taught C++ from the start, with maybe one class using C later (mainly for having us program our own data structures). While learning C++, some knowlege of C was taught as well (which I think is required, since C++ can make use of most C headers and code). I don't think not fully learning C first hampered anything though.

    I also seem to remember hearing that some people had the opinion that learning C first could actually teach some bad habits, as far as making you used to non-object-oriented programming, which might make it more difficult to get used to OO programming with other languages later.

    As far as speed, I've heard some people think the STL in C++ is slow and they like to avoid it. I think the STL is very poweful though, and is one of the best features of the C++ standard library, along with the algorithms included with the <algorithm> header. It seems to me they did what they can to make the STL fast via the use of templates, which resolve types at compile-time, which is faster than doing so at runtime.

    Nightfox

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  • From Retro Guy@VERT/RETROBBS to Nightfox on Sat Nov 9 09:32:32 2019
    Nightfox wrote:

    I also seem to remember hearing that some people had the opinion that
    learning C first could actually teach some bad habits, as far as making you used to non-object-oriented programming, which might make it more difficult to get used to OO programming with other languages later.

    To me that makes sense. I taught myself C in probably 1993 for a project
    for work, and continued with the language for years. Moving to C++ just doesn't click for me, I have a lot of trouble with object-oriented
    programming no matter how much I try to force myself.

    Maybe if I had learned C++ first it would make more sense. Then moving to
    C shouldn't be difficult as C++ is loaded with C. Now I just stick with
    php :)

    Retro Guy

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  • From crow@VERT/ABINARY to Digital Man on Sat Nov 9 14:07:00 2019
    As for C++ apparently not being "Slow" and "Bloated", are you sure that isn't the case?

    I mean, that's what a lot of people say. Either those people have worked with the Language and don't like it, some famous person has said it or people just hate it to be like everyone else.

    But, I do remember being told to not listen to the opinions of anyone else and just give the Language a shot. And when I say "opinions", I mean like bad or biased ones.

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  • From crow@VERT/ABINARY to Nightfox on Sat Nov 9 14:15:00 2019
    I would say that learning C++ first is bad.

    The reason for that is probably due to it's complexity and many Features.
    Which may cause people to not understand some of C++ or Programming in
    general. But a Language like C would be better for an intro to Programming in my opinion because it doesn't have things like Classes or other things such as Vectors(Whatever those are for anyway). Python is also good for a beginner and can help someone get into OO.

    As for learning a Procedural-Language like C first that then stops someone
    from learning an OO-Language, I think I can understand why. If I'm correct, it's because the person who learned Procedural or even Functional, wouldn't have used things like Classes or Objects before. As a result, they may not
    know much about it or the OO-Language.

    But I don't think it should be too hard to transition from Procedural to OO. I mean, I'm learning both C(Procedural) and Java(OO) and I have no problems with two completely different Paradigms. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't have these sorts of issues with things like Paradigms.

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/TWODUDES to crow on Sat Nov 9 18:42:00 2019
    crow wrote to All <=-

    I'm currently a person learning Programming. Right now, I'm focusing on
    C and Java(I might also plan to put more focus onto Python too). But, right now, I'm wondering whether I should learn C++.

    Although C++ and Java are in demand, their demand is waning. Python, on the other hand, is growing.
    On top of that, Python is much better for learning how to program.

    I mean, a lot of Jobs nowadays involve or require C++. But the thing
    about C++, is it's Syntax and the fact that a lot of people say that
    the the Language is bloated and slow. I don't want a Language like that but I have been told to just decide for myself.

    No, the language is not bloated, but the implementations might be, depending on what system it's on.
    But the language is very cumbersome to use compared to modern languages.

    Remember that C++ is not a redesign of C. C++ is C with objects bolted on. All C programs are valid C++ programs.

    Now as for whether I should learn C++, should I? Is it a terrible
    Language due to it being "bloated" and "slow"(According to others
    anyway)?

    As a software professional for 30+ years, I would say "No". C++ isn't worth learning today.
    It's sort of like learning COBOL right before Y2K.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/TWODUDES to Digital Man on Sat Nov 9 18:43:00 2019
    Digital Man wrote to crow <=-

    C++ is definitely not "slow" by any measure, it's as "close to the hardware" as C but you do get a bit more overhead in your compiled code (compared to straight C).

    Actually, C hasn't been "close to the hardware" since PDP days.
    See https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Retro Guy on Sun Nov 10 12:50:00 2019
    On 11-09-19 09:32, Retro Guy wrote to Nightfox <=-

    To me that makes sense. I taught myself C in probably 1993 for a
    project for work, and continued with the language for years. Moving to
    C++ just doesn't click for me, I have a lot of trouble with object-oriented programming no matter how much I try to force myself.

    I've dabbled in Java a little over 10 years ago, which was my introduction to OO programming. I found I took to the concepts fairly well. However, I haven't done much with C or C++. My head hasn't been in the right place for coding for a long time.


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to crow on Sun Nov 10 12:52:00 2019
    On 11-09-19 14:07, crow wrote to Digital Man <=-

    But, I do remember being told to not listen to the opinions of anyone
    else and just give the Language a shot. And when I say "opinions", I
    mean like bad or biased ones.

    That's the best way. :)


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to crow on Sun Nov 10 12:54:00 2019
    On 11-09-19 14:15, crow wrote to Nightfox <=-

    But I don't think it should be too hard to transition from Procedural
    to OO. I mean, I'm learning both C(Procedural) and Java(OO) and I have
    no problems with two completely different Paradigms. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't have these sorts of issues with things like Paradigms.

    Back in the 90s, I was programming in Pascal, and dabbled in Java around 2007. I has no issues getting my head around the OO concepts in Java.


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dr. What on Sun Nov 10 12:56:00 2019
    On 11-09-19 18:42, Dr. What wrote to crow <=-

    Although C++ and Java are in demand, their demand is waning. Python,
    on the other hand, is growing.
    On top of that, Python is much better for learning how to program.

    I haven't looked at Python yet, but I've heard a lot of good things about it. Might have to investigate it, if I ever physically slow down, or hit a long run of hyperfocus on software. :)


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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Retro Guy on Sat Nov 9 20:42:29 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: Retro Guy to Nightfox on Sat Nov 09 2019 09:32 am

    Maybe if I had learned C++ first it would make more sense. Then moving to C shouldn't be difficult as C++ is loaded with C. Now I just stick with php :)

    PHP has had object-oriented features for quite a while now.. ;)

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to crow on Sat Nov 9 20:44:16 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: crow to Nightfox on Sat Nov 09 2019 02:15 pm

    I would say that learning C++ first is bad.

    The reason for that is probably due to it's complexity and many Features. Which may cause people to not understand some of C++ or Programming in general. But a Language like C would be better for an intro to Programming in my opinion because it doesn't have things like Classes or other things such as Vectors(Whatever those are for anyway). Python is also good for a beginner and can help someone get into OO.

    I dunno.. Maybe it depends on the person. I had learned C++ first (though I suppose technically I had done some BASIC years earlier), and I don't think it was a big issue to learn object-oriented programming. I suppose it took a bit to get my head around it, but after a short while I understood it, and after that it's like second nature.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to crow on Sat Nov 9 20:47:32 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: crow to Digital Man on Sat Nov 09 2019 02:07 pm

    As for C++ apparently not being "Slow" and "Bloated", are you sure that isn't the case?

    I mean, that's what a lot of people say. Either those people have worked with the Language and don't like it, some famous person has said it or people just hate it to be like everyone else.

    Perhaps C++ is bloated compared to something like C, or slower than something like hand-optimized assembly code.. But C++ is relatively low-level compared to more modern languages like Java and C#, and being a compiled language, it's certainly faster than something like Python, Ruby, etc..

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dr. What on Sat Nov 9 20:52:44 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: Dr. What to crow on Sat Nov 09 2019 06:42 pm

    Although C++ and Java are in demand, their demand is waning. Python, on the other hand, is growing.
    On top of that, Python is much better for learning how to program.

    Python is getting more popular, but I'm not sure how much C++ might be waning. C++ started to gain a lot of modern features with C++11, and there are new C++ standards coming out about every 3 years now (there has been C++11, C++14, and now a C++20 is planned for next year. I think the more modern features being added to C++ may be helping its popularity right now.

    Remember that C++ is not a redesign of C. C++ is C with objects bolted on. All C programs are valid C++ programs.

    C++ isn't a true superset of C. C++ is maybe 99% compatible with C, but there are some features from C that don't quite work the same in C++. Objective-C is a true superset of C though (and it's true to say any C program is also a valid Objective-C program).

    As a software professional for 30+ years, I would say "No". C++ isn't worth learning today.
    It's sort of like learning COBOL right before Y2K.

    I'm not sure about that.. C++ is still used for a good number of projects. And C++ has been around so long that it (along with C) is a sort of de-facto standard for some things (i.e., C is the de-facto standard for the external interface for Windows DLLs and shared libarries on Linux).

    It seems C++ has been in the top 3 popular programming languages for at least the last several years or so. I've heard the top 3 are Java, C, and C++, and that still seems to be the case:
    https://zd.net/32wIY0E
    Full URL: https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-language-popularity-c-bounces-back-at -pythons-expense/

    Nightfox

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  • From Retro Guy@VERT/RETROBBS to Nightfox on Sun Nov 10 11:22:18 2019
    Nightfox wrote:

    Re: Re: C++
    By: Retro Guy to Nightfox on Sat Nov 09 2019 09:32 am

    Maybe if I had learned C++ first it would make more sense. Then moving
    to
    C shouldn't be difficult as C++ is loaded with C. Now I just stick with php :)

    PHP has had object-oriented features for quite a while now.. ;)

    Yes, and I struggle with them :) If I was a programmer for a living now,
    I'd focus more on it, but at this time it's just a hobby.

    Retro Guy

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  • From Digital Man@VERT to crow on Sun Nov 10 11:36:51 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: crow to Digital Man on Sat Nov 09 2019 02:07 pm

    As for C++ apparently not being "Slow" and "Bloated", are you sure that isn't the case?

    Like I said, "bloated" is a subjective opinion.

    C++ being "slow" is false. C++ compilers compile to native code with usually very little overhead. If the program is slow, it's the programmer's fault, not the language (C++).

    digital man

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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Dr. What on Sun Nov 10 11:39:12 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: Dr. What to crow on Sat Nov 09 2019 06:42 pm

    All C programs are valid C++ programs.

    While that was true long ago, it's not any longer. Most C source code today will not compile as C++.

    digital man

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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Dr. What on Sun Nov 10 11:41:09 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: Dr. What to Digital Man on Sat Nov 09 2019 06:43 pm

    Digital Man wrote to crow <=-

    C++ is definitely not "slow" by any measure, it's as "close to the hardware" as C but you do get a bit more overhead in your compiled code (compared to straight C).

    Actually, C hasn't been "close to the hardware" since PDP days.
    See https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479

    "Close" is relative. Other than Assembler, I know of no programming language that is "closer to the hardware" than C.

    digital man

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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Sun Nov 10 11:54:33 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Sat Nov 09 2019 08:52 pm

    Re: Re: C++
    By: Dr. What to crow on Sat Nov 09 2019 06:42 pm

    Although C++ and Java are in demand, their demand is waning. Python, on the other hand, is growing.
    On top of that, Python is much better for learning how to program.

    Python is getting more popular, but I'm not sure how much C++ might be waning. C++ started to gain a lot of modern features with C++11, and there are new C++ standards coming out about every 3 years now (there has been C++11, C++14, and now a C++20 is planned for next year. I think the more modern features being added to C++ may be helping its popularity right now.

    Remember that C++ is not a redesign of C. C++ is C with objects bolted on. All C programs are valid C++ programs.

    C++ isn't a true superset of C. C++ is maybe 99% compatible with C, but there are some features from C that don't quite work the same in C++. Objective-C is a true superset of C though (and it's true to say any C program is also a valid Objective-C program).

    As a software professional for 30+ years, I would say "No". C++ isn't worth learning today.
    It's sort of like learning COBOL right before Y2K.

    I'm not sure about that.. C++ is still used for a good number of projects. And C++ has been around so long that it (along with C) is a sort of de-facto standard for some things (i.e., C is the de-facto standard for the external interface for Windows DLLs and shared libarries on Linux).

    It seems C++ has been in the top 3 popular programming languages for at least the last several years or so. I've heard the top 3 are Java, C, and C++, and that still seems to be the case:
    https://zd.net/32wIY0E
    Full URL: https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-language-popularity-c-bo unces-back-at -pythons-expense/

    You seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI ?

    Seems topical and mesmerizing. :-)

    digital man

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Sun Nov 10 17:16:55 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Sun Nov 10 2019 11:54 am

    You seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI ?

    Seems topical and mesmerizing. :-)

    I hadn't seen that before. Makes sense, but I'm also a little surprised. I'd think C++, C#, and C would be higher up toward the end.

    Nightfox

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Nightfox on Tue Nov 12 18:52:00 2019
    Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Python is getting more popular, but I'm not sure how much C++ might be waning. C++ started to gain a lot of modern features with C++11, and there are new C++ standards coming out about every 3 years now (there
    has been C++11, C++14, and now a C++20 is planned for next year. I
    think the more modern features being added to C++ may be helping its popularity right now.

    I base my statement on the fact that the last time I used C++ was about 20 years ago. Everything that I've done professionally has been in something else.

    Many of the programming jobs today are in the web area. C++ isn't there.
    You might get some C/C++ in the IoT area, but with the popularity of Micro/CircuitPython, even that area is looking to move away from C in the long term.
    Android development is primarily in Java (although you can still do some C++ stuff there).
    In my current company, the big product that they have is all C# (which has little to do with C).

    So, like COBOL, C/C++ isn't going away anytime soon. But demand for it is dropping and the programming community is actively looking for something to replacement (it's hoped that Go will do it).

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dr. What on Tue Nov 12 17:34:51 2019
    Re: Re: C++
    By: Dr. What to Nightfox on Tue Nov 12 2019 06:52 pm

    and there are new C++ standards coming out about every 3 years now
    (there has been C++11, C++14, and now a C++20 is planned for next
    year. I think the more modern features being added to C++ may be
    helping its popularity right now.

    I base my statement on the fact that the last time I used C++ was about 20 years ago. Everything that I've done professionally has been in something else.

    I've been a developer since 2003, and I've used C++ at almost every job I've had. One of the companies I've worked at is Intel, where C++ is used quite a bit. There are also a lot of math libraries, such as the Cuda libraries that make use of Nvidia's GPUs for number-crunching, that interface with C/C++. I've intereviewed for another job recently at another company where C++ is used for much of their work (electronics test instrumentation tools and wireless communication software). Perhaps if C++ isn't as common as other languages, C++ software is still out there, and it seems to me C++ is still a fairly popular language.

    So, like COBOL, C/C++ isn't going away anytime soon. But demand for it is dropping and the programming community is actively looking for something to replacement (it's hoped that Go will do it).

    C++ started to get regular updates to its standard in 2011 though, and the C++ standard is being updated every 3 years now. There's the C++11 standard, C++14, C++17, and soon C++20. I don't imagine the C++ standard would be updated so much if there wasn't enough demand for C++.

    Nightfox

    Nightfox

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Nightfox on Wed Nov 13 18:13:00 2019
    Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I've been a developer since 2003, and I've used C++ at almost every job I've had.

    I've been a developer since 1987 and I've used C++ for only 2 jobs.
    In both cases, the only reason we used C++ was because that was really the only option.

    In the last 20 years, it's beem mainly JavaScript, Java, C#, Perl. And even COBOL.

    One of the companies I've worked at is Intel, where C++ is
    used quite a bit. There are also a lot of math libraries, such as the Cuda libraries that make use of Nvidia's GPUs for number-crunching,
    that interface with C/C++. I've intereviewed for another job recently
    at another company where C++ is used for much of their work
    (electronics test instrumentation tools and wireless communication software).

    Which makes sense. But that type of programming is the exception, not the rule today.

    Perhaps if C++ isn't as common as other languages, C++
    software is still out there, and it seems to me C++ is still a fairly popular language.

    My argument is that C++ is about as popular as COBOL. Both languages still have a large installed base and are still in use.

    The issue comes from the other costs of software: development and maintenance. It costs much more to develop software in C++ than a modern programming language. Companies are looking to use more modern programming languages that lower those development and maintenance costs - even if it costs more to run because computer time is cheap today.

    Eric S. Raymond has several good articles on this topic. http://esr.ibiblio.org/

    You might want to check out the Julia programming language. It promises to have the ease of development like Python, but the speed of C. I've only played with it a bit, but it does seem to come close to meeting those promises.

    C++ started to get regular updates to its standard in 2011 though, and
    the C++ standard is being updated every 3 years now. There's the C++11 standard, C++14, C++17, and soon C++20. I don't imagine the C++
    standard would be updated so much if there wasn't enough demand for
    C++.

    COBOL and FORTRAN have also been updated in recent years (FORTRAN in 2018 and COBOL in 2014). But that doesn't mean that they are growing in demand.

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