• Re: How far I've come...

    From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to esc on Sun Jan 22 18:41:00 2023
    esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
    anything or have screws left over!

    Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when
    the fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual
    problem, but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it.
    I'm curious - did you consider replacing the fans at all or did
    you just want to fix the ones you have?

    Well, you snipped it out, but quoting from his opening paragraph... "and
    so I bought some replacement fans." ... ;-)


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  • From esc@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Mon Jan 23 00:13:00 2023
    Well, you snipped it out, but quoting from his opening paragraph... "and so I bought some replacement fans." ... ;-)

    Haha, nice catch, guess I missed that bit ;)

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to esc on Mon Jan 23 06:15:00 2023
    esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when the
    fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual problem,
    but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it. I'm curious - did you consider replacing the fans at all or did you just want to fix the ones you have?

    I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
    a month. I figured I'd do a dry-run first and see how hard it would be
    to take apart this time.

    I'll keep the new ones around for when the fans finally fail.




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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Ogg on Wed Jan 25 18:00:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Ogg to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 07:23 am

    Hello MRO!

    ** On Tuesday 24.01.23 - 16:27, MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:

    I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
    a month...

    why didnt you just use amazon

    It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
    literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
    not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
    product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
    China. It too will be about a month in transit.



    Azon is a marketplace, and in order to carry A to Z you will run into items made from Chinesium. For example I needed a USB to serial interface, and it arived in a puffy airmail container from a Chinese vendor

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  • From Cougar428@VERT to OGG on Thu Jan 26 06:46:00 2023
    Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-

    SNIP

    It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China, literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
    not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
    product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
    China. It too will be about a month in transit.

    Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
    China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the
    investment is worth it (IMO).

    Cougar


    ... "Don't mince words, Ogg ... what do you *REALLY* think?"

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Cougar428 on Thu Jan 26 09:00:55 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

    Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
    China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the investment is worth it (IMO).

    Apparently it's less expensive for American companies to have things made in China. And with China's population, they have a lot of people to develop manufacturing facilities and work for them, so they have a high workforce volume too.

    Even if you buy something made in the US, it may contain parts that were made in China, especially if it's electronic.

    Nightfox

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Cougar428 on Thu Jan 26 11:33:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

    Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-

    SNIP

    It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China, literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
    not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
    product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
    China. It too will be about a month in transit.

    Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
    China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the investment is worth it (IMO).

    Cougar


    ... "Don't mince words, Ogg ... what do you *REALLY* think?"

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20


    As stated, cost is the big thing. My father worked for a die cast company,
    and the exceutive staff was invited to China to visit a foundry being built. The construction crew cleared an empty area, then built apartment buildings. They were used by the construction company while the foundry was being built.
    While hte foundry was being brought up to production, the construction of
    tool and die shops were being built next door to it. When finished, the construction crew moves out of the apartments, then the employees move in. Th e complex is a self contained town in the middle of nowhere with industrial rail access.

    The apartments would be 2-3 person by US standards, but will host 8 Chinese workers. The company quoted them on the cost of building a die cast machine and all the cores, and the price was less than the cost of raw materials anywhere else in the world. When a company can build a finished product for less than raw materials, imagine adding on to it all the reuired governmental fees and bring it all up to compliance. Add the cost of US employees and benefits. Unless you produce a consumable product with a strong customer
    base and constant demand, several companies find manufacturing overseas is
    more lucrative.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 14:19:10 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 11:43 am

    During Christmas time the stores sell these big tin's of cookies from Scandinavian countries. I lokoed at the small print and one said, "packaged in Denmark." The cookies and tins were made in China, Vietnam, or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a product of Denmark.

    I wonder how those cookies stay fresh, being shipped all around the world like that.

    And that reminds me of my car.. My car was assembled in Germany, but I found the engine was built in Mexico and the transmission was built in Japan. So those components were shipped to Germany where they assembled the car, then the car was transported here to the US where it was sold. And apparently it was still profitable to build the car that way.

    Nightfox

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Fri Jan 27 00:23:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 02:19 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 11:43 am

    During Christmas time the stores sell these big tin's of cookies from Scandinavian countries. I lokoed at the small print and one said, "packaged in Denmark." The cookies and tins were made in China, Vietnam or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a product of Denmark.

    I wonder how those cookies stay fresh, being shipped all around the world li

    And that reminds me of my car.. My car was assembled in Germany, but I foun here to the US where it was sold. And apparently it was still profitable to

    Nightfox

    It's probably packed in nitrogen and shipped priority shipping or by air. From there it is packed in airtight tins and sealed.

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  • From BoomieMovie@VERT/WIREHEAD to Nightfox on Fri Jan 27 12:03:24 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 14:19:10

    Modern supply chains are notorious for being extremely complex and fractured. Every part of the product making is made in a completely different country. A famous example is the "Grown in Argentina, packaged in Thailand beans thing that appeared a year ago. Honestly this approach seems inefficent considering transporation costs (altrough you could argue that do it being shipped in bulk, invalidates the costs).

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 00:48:00 2023
    It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
    >point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
    >much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.

    Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business and then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
    the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
    slave labour.

    They do work efficiently.. I recall years back, probably when wages were quite a bit lower there, a big US manufacturer of sporting goods was making football helmets in the USA. But, they were shipping the helmets to China to have the mouth guards attached, and then shipping them back since that was cheaper than doing it in the USA.

    Also, the Chinese gov't hates paying people to do nothing. They will keep a factory operating that is failing miserably, and then dump the products on foreign markets at ridiculously low prices, rather than let the company shut down.

    Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using fewer workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stand for that.

    It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ROB MCCART on Sat Jan 28 10:30:00 2023
    Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business
    nd
    then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

    I agree that the US (and maybe Western in general) attitude and practices
    are also a problem.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Hold on! Doesn't NT mean NinTendo ?

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  • From Cougar428@VERT to ARELOR on Sat Jan 28 13:49:00 2023
    <Snip>

    So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry
    to produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at
    some point they realized they could use that infrastructure and
    experience to produce it themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in china, and sends an European foreman to
    oversee the production of watches, you will find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.

    I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
    helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
    the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
    basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
    competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

    Doesn't seem like good business, but apparently it was cheaper than
    shipping goods to China for sale in the asian market.




    ... Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Sat Jan 28 08:04:00 2023
    Moondog wrote to Nightfox <=-

    It's probably packed in nitrogen and shipped priority shipping or by
    air. From there it is packed in airtight tins and sealed.

    I'm a coffee afficionado (was going to say "snob", but I like all sort
    of coffee, even Bad Coffee) and have been paying attention lately to
    roasting dates.

    I just bought a new espresso machine, so I'm buying fresh beans instead
    of ground.

    It's interesting seeing the variety of roasting dates on store-bought
    coffees. Some of the coffee beans packed in nitrogen have pull dates a
    year or two from now!

    I'm spoiled. I have a handful of local roasters and I can get beans
    roasted a couple of days ago.



    ... UNPRISON YOUR THINK RHINO
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to COUGAR428 on Sun Jan 29 10:29:00 2023
    I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
    helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
    the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
    basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
    competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

    Something similar happened in Japan after WWII. Their factories got
    rebuilt with better state-of-the-art stuff while the US factories did not
    get upgraded. They also listened to Demming where American companies would not.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

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  • From Ted Long@VERT to Cougar428 on Sun Jan 29 10:43:57 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

    Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
    Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and a bowl
    of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance.
    And American consumers are as much to blame....they'll pay 2 grand for an Apple iPhone thats designed in Cupertino, and assembled in Flungdung by a
    girl who's supporting herself and her aged parents on 3 bucks an hour.
    How I wish we COULD "Buy American". (sighhhh..)

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Rob Mccart on Sun Jan 29 13:12:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am

    It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
    >point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
    >much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.

    Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business a then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly slave labour.

    They do work efficiently.. I recall years back, probably when wages were qui a bit lower there, a big US manufacturer of sporting goods was making footba helmets in the USA. But, they were shipping the helmets to China to have the mouth guards attached, and then shipping them back since that was cheaper th doing it in the USA.

    Also, the Chinese gov't hates paying people to do nothing. They will keep a factory operating that is failing miserably, and then dump the products on foreign markets at ridiculously low prices, rather than let the company shut down.

    Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using few workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stan for that.

    It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.

    The country also restricts travel from one province to another to regluate
    jobs and commerce. This ia a way to keep farmers' families in farming, so their kids won't leave in puruit of better manufacturing jobs.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 30 14:15:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to COUGAR428 on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:29 am

    I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
    helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
    the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
    basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

    Something similar happened in Japan after WWII. Their factories got
    rebuilt with better state-of-the-art stuff while the US factories did not get upgraded. They also listened to Demming where American companies would not.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

    The US sent many of their efficiency experts over to Japan. The Japanese
    were willing to listen and patient, unlike their US counterparts. Instead exp ecting quick results, they made short term and long term goals. I think
    that's more or less an Asian thing, since Korea i very similar in long trm plans. I recall an episode of Computer Chronicles where there was a representative from a company such as Samsung who was talking about the
    future of LCD displays. Back in the 80's the screen array siz was limited,
    so in order to make larger displays you would make it out of severasl smaller displays. The sales guy was mentioning color displays were around the
    corner, and large flat panel TV's weren't far behind. The other guest was fr om a US company, and thought the trouble of coordinating an array of panels wa s too forward thinking. Of course, the US guy was thinking about short term issues rather than how things go faster if you invest in them.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 30 14:22:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:31 am

    Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exact slave labour.

    there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of chi

    That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
    at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
    as to how they treat non-Han peoples.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Energize! said Picard....and this pink bunny appeared...

    When the upper management from my father's company toured the foundry and the plants around it, they noticed the apartments were shabby and over crowded. Employees were packed into apartment complexes. 8 people were living in a apartment suitable for 2 or 3 people.

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  • From Cougar428@VERT to TED LONG on Mon Jan 30 15:42:00 2023
    Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
    Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and
    a bowl of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance. And American consumers are as much to blame....they'll
    pay 2 grand for an Apple iPhone thats designed in Cupertino, and
    assembled in Flungdung by a girl who's supporting herself and her aged parents on 3 bucks an hour. How I wish we COULD "Buy American". (sighhhh..)

    Now that we've gotten that out of the way, can you tell me what you
    really think?

    (just kidding!)

    I worked at a plastics plant where we made all the parts in the
    factory. So I know there are products made in america. I just
    wonder why business people don't see the promise of building chips
    for cars in the US since we can't get them from China. (granted,
    this is just an example, I don't know if those chips actually do
    come from China).

    If more US companies started building the items we are short of,
    they could take advantage of opportunity.

    JMO - Cougar


    ... Pure drivel tends to drive away ordinary drivel.

    ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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  • From Ted Long@VERT to Cougar428 on Mon Jan 30 16:25:38 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to TED LONG on Mon Jan 30 2023 03:42 pm

    Most of the automotive PIC's and PLA's that used to be made in US silicon foundries are currently made in Red China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The over-priced Apple stuff that used to be assembled in Cupertino is now made by Foxconn labor mills in Nicaragua and Beijing, right next to the Intel CPU plants.
    Most of the RF and analog chips formerly made in the states by National Semi and Motorola is now made in S. Korea by NXP. Think about it...the guts of our Patriot missiles (1980's tech) that used to be made in Silicon Valley is now made 50 miles away from a nation led by one of the looniest dictators in the world. If Kim Jung Fool decides to nuke Seoul, where are the chips for our
    older military tech gonna come from?
    IMHO, the Chips Act is 20 years too late.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Rob Mccart on Tue Jan 31 14:09:18 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are always other offers out there.

    To put it in terms a Communist would understand, the power Unions hold comes from maintaining the monopoly of workforce supply. If enough workers could operate out of the parameters the Union wants, the Union is not effective by itself (ie. the Union cannot set prices for the workforce if enough workers negotiate their own prices by the side). Hence Unions act like mobs to survive.

    I think most big companies nowadays are unable to identify which workers they have are hard workers and which ones are plain burdersome. The reason is that Western companies have bloated themselves with so much management people that the Directives calling the shots only know what midle ranks tell them. That is VERY BAD. 100% of the medium-to-big companies I know personally have very severe issues with this. Maybe a radiodiagnostics service has three radiologists in it, with one doing 70% of the work. This fact gets lost because nobody is paying attention. Then budget cuts come and the hard-working one threatens to leave if they don't give her adecuate equipment or whatever (because there is severe Dr. scarcity and she can switch employments faster than you can switch underwear). The midle-manager calculates "Ok, this one must be doing 33% of the work, so we let her leave and replace her with a new guy." She leaves and they get a new Dr. fresh out of college which takes 33% of the load, leaving the department defficitary because the group now has no capability to push his own way up.

    I am not complaining. Karme is a bitch. The West will pay the price for management overbloat. The only problem I have with that is I am trapped there.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ted Long on Tue Jan 31 14:13:30 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Ted Long to Cougar428 on Mon Jan 30 2023 04:25 pm

    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to TED LONG on Mon Jan 30 2023 03:42 pm

    Most of the automotive PIC's and PLA's that used to be made in US silico ua and Beijing, right next to the Intel CPU plants.
    Most of the RF and analog chips formerly made in the states by National from a nation led by one of the looniest dictators in the world. If Kim Jung older military tech gonna come from?
    IMHO, the Chips Act is 20 years too late.

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    I keep thinking this when I hear of all the EU politicians wanting to remove cash and replace it with digital payment systems.

    These guys would leave every economic activity in the hands of whoever manufactured the smartphones, computers and programs used to run such systems, who would completely be external to the EU.



    --
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Rob Mccart on Tue Jan 31 12:55:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

    unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right
    >k states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont h
    >join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure pe
    >e held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can b
    > in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.

    My first long term job, part time while in school working at a grocery store taught me all I needed to know about unions. They have a union similar in strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad habits'.. I was spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP Chevelle SS) and a custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as much income as possible. The best way to get called first for extra hours when someone didn't show up was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I was good enough that I earned a merit raise, the first one in the company in 15 years, for breaking company production records.. This earned me about 35% more money than others in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote staircas and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else 'look bad'.. I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions.

    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are always other offers out there.

    I worked at a salaried job, then the plant shut down and relocated the repair service department to the main plant. The main plant was a "closed shop" beyond the double doors heading out to the plant floor, so we were given the option to be integrated in the union or to find another job.

    At first we thought being unionized was repressive, but later on we saw how mu ch certain supervisiors would try to make up conflicting policies depending
    on favoritism or perception. One time we had a lay off, and right before the layoff I reach my anniversary, and got a review and promotion to a higher pay grade. That supervisor was retiring, so he had no qualms about me moving up
    a pay grade. A month later we got the government contract, and I was called back in. The supervisor that took over was the one who played favorites, and viewed me as a goof off, despite me making rate and working on a variety of product. One day HR comes out and says they need extra grade 11 techs on the line, and I refused. That equated to him that I was refusing work, which
    was grounds for termination. He worked up the paperwork, and wanted me to
    sign I refuse to accept a temporary department reassignment. I refused to
    sign and got two union stewards involved who knew I was a grade 12. The boss had the HR rep come out as well, and he told the boss that he wasted
    everyone's time because I'm a 12, and not an 11. There were other 11's in
    the department next to our that could tranfer to the line and didn't have to bother a 12 that had less senior 12's if they needed to pull 12's. That supervisor had several grievances written towards him by the material handlers
    and he was reassigned into non-leadership role.

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Tue Jan 31 01:13:00 2023
    The country also restricts travel from one province to another to regluate
    >jobs and commerce. This ia a way to keep farmers' families in farming, so
    >their kids won't leave in puruit of better manufacturing jobs.

    Yes, there's no question it's a lousy place to live. That's why so many
    wealthy Chinese move to the USA and Canada. Way too much government
    control over everything there.. The only unusual thing there, being a
    communist country, is that they do seem to have a middle class. Usually
    there is a tiny percentage of very rich people and the rest are all
    super poor.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ROB MCCART on Tue Jan 31 15:28:00 2023
    Yes, there's no question it's a lousy place to live. That's why so many wealthy Chinese move to the USA and Canada. Way too much government
    control over everything there.. The only unusual thing there, being a communist country, is that they do seem to have a middle class. Usually
    there is a tiny percentage of very rich people and the rest are all
    super poor.

    I think the ones who are loyal to the party can make a good living. That
    is how it used to work in the USSR. Are the ones that "move" to Canada
    allowed to stay there full-time? I was under the impression they could
    own property and spend "seasons" in Canada and the US (and Italy and other countries) but that they were still considered Chinese citizens and had to spend some time in their home country per Chinese rules.


    * SLMR 2.1a * SYSOP (sih' sawp) n. The guy laughing at your typing.

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DUMAS WALKER on Thu Feb 2 00:28:00 2023
    I think the ones who are loyal to the party can make a good living. That
    >is how it used to work in the USSR. Are the ones that "move" to Canada
    >allowed to stay there full-time? I was under the impression they could
    >own property and spend "seasons" in Canada and the US (and Italy and other
    >countries) but that they were still considered Chinese citizens and had to
    >spend some time in their home country per Chinese rules.

    No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate here
    as easily as anyone else. It might take a while, as there are huge numbers of people that want to come to Canada (at least until they find out about the weather.. Ha!) but I'd assume many coming from China would be wealthy which probably helps the situation. But that's for a full time move. If they wanted to still return to their own country at times then they would probably be restricted to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Thu Feb 2 00:51:00 2023
    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
    > still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
    > most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
    > always other offers out there.

    To put it in terms a Communist would understand, the power Unions hold comes
    >from maintaining the monopoly of workforce supply. If enough workers could
    >operate out of the parameters the Union wants, the Union is not effective by
    >itself (ie. the Union cannot set prices for the workforce if enough workers
    >negotiate their own prices by the side). Hence Unions act like mobs to surviv

    It's a complex issue. Non-union places mainly only survive because they directly compete with Union places. If they pay less or have terrible
    working conditions, their workers will go elsewhere. Granted it's much
    better these days because of half decent minimum wages and safety conditions pretty much guaranteed by basic government rules.

    True communism is a whole other world. Canada is often referred to by
    Americans as a Socialist Democracy. No question we are more Socialist
    on average than the USA, but there is still a Capitalist backbone there allowing those who are smarter and/or work harder to do better than the
    average person. That's usually not an option in a true communist situation. Generally speaking they do a job for a set rate and they want you to work
    as hard as possible but, doing so, won't get you ahead.. so the only way
    to 'win' is to do as little work as you can get away with so you are doing
    less work than your neighbour for the same money. Production rates there
    are generally pretty dismal compared to here.

    But Russia is no fun to live in for a lot of reasons. My next door neighbour lived there, working for a North American company, for several years and
    he said that it's fairly nice there.. if you have money. But the average
    person there barely scrapes by. He mentioned the owner of a butcher shop
    that he bought from told him once, when complimented on the meat, that he
    tries to make it the best he can but couldn't comment much on it because
    he couldn't afford to shop in his own store.

    I asked him if he felt safe with his family there, and he said he had a
    nice house with virtually no crime and they could hire housekeepers and gardeners and such for 80 cents an hour. This was only about 8 years ago.
    Later his 'feeling safe' comment was made more clear when he mentioned
    that he lived in a part of the city where only workers and their families
    from other countries lived, and there was a high brick wall around the
    whole area that was patrolled by hired soldiers with automatic weapons
    24 hours a day.

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MOONDOG on Thu Feb 2 01:18:00 2023
    Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
    > still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
    > most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
    > always other offers out there.

    I worked at a salaried job, then the plant shut down and relocated the repair
    >service department to the main plant. The main plant was a "closed shop"
    >beyond the double doors heading out to the plant floor, so we were given the
    >option to be integrated in the union or to find another job.

    At first we thought being unionized was repressive, but later on we saw how m
    >ch certain supervisiors would try to make up conflicting policies depending
    >on favoritism or perception...

    Yes, dpending on the place Union stuff can be all over the place. They help in companies that will walk all over their employees cutting corners wherever possible, but the also can stifle productivity when working harder doesn't get you anywhere because wages are set in stone based on time worked there and
    it's often near impossible to fire someone for being lazy.

    One place I worked at, when I was in the plant on my own, I actually set a world record in production - multiple branches on 3 continents - and as
    we grew I treated the people I was now supervising much better than the
    other divisions did and production stayed well up there, although we had
    to hide when people were between jobs 'slacking off' because when more
    work came in a day than we could reasonably be expected to handle, we
    would also all work our tails off and get it done. If you push people
    all the time, their only intelligent recourse is to work slower.

    That all came to a crashing halt a couple of years later when a Union got
    into the company. I left and the others changed their attitude and a large number of customers were lost.. and our biggest competitor heard that I'd
    left and offered me 50% more money if I would go work for them.
    Why I didn't take that job is a long story but it shows that when you
    do exceptional work usually people know about it and are willing to pay
    well for that person. That said, if the company is Huge, it's much harder
    to stand out and often exceptional results are taken by the higher ups as
    their doing, not crediting any individual(s).

    Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
    There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
    that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs. B)

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ROB MCCART on Thu Feb 2 16:50:00 2023
    No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate here as easily as anyone else. It might take a while, as there are huge numbers of people that want to come to Canada (at least until they find out about the weather.. Ha!) but I'd assume many coming from China would be wealthy which probably helps the situation. But that's for a full time move. If they wanted to still return to their own country at times then they would probably be restricted to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
    the idea that they could not immigrate permanently. I had heard that
    Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap during the seasons they
    are not there because they cannot stay. So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay. Thanks!


    * SLMR 2.1a * Yes, you're right. Unfortunately, I don't really care.

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  • From Cougar428@VERT to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 4 08:22:00 2023
    Quoting Rob Mccart to Moondog <=-

    Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
    There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
    that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs.

    Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
    about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
    you were the one in charge?

    In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
    sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
    never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

    JM2C...

    Cougar


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Cougar428 on Sat Feb 4 09:08:40 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Cougar428 to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 04 2023 08:22 am

    Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
    about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
    you were the one in charge?

    In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
    sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
    never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.


    The way to do it right is to walk ouf of such firms and try to start your own business, which isn't easy, and therefore few people tries.

    You are not charging a corporation from within unless you are somebody already, and if you were, things would work to your liking already.

    --
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Feb 4 01:18:00 2023
    No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate
    >> here as easily as anyone else. If they wanted to still return to
    >> their own country at times then they would probably be restricted
    >> to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
    >the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.

    Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russia or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to
    their Commie ways.. B)

    I had heard that Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap
    >during the seasons they are not there because they cannot stay.
    >So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay.

    In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest
    money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good
    chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
    stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
    the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move
    here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of
    things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and,
    although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free' countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
    they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
    of all their $Billions out of their home country..

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 4 09:42:00 2023
    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
    >the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.

    Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russia
    or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to their Commie ways.. B)

    Cuba is another country I didn't think you were able to permanently leave without fleeing. I know that used to be true. If they are able to leave
    and are moving to Canada (and for the reasons we suspect), that is great!

    In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
    stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
    the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move
    here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and, although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free' countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
    they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
    of all their $Billions out of their home country..

    Yes, that makes sense. If they've been allowed to make money over there,
    they probably are not doing too badly in their country and would have
    trouble maintaining their riches elsewhere.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Think of it as evolution in action.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Rob Mccart on Sun Feb 5 12:23:00 2023
    Re: How far I've come...
    By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Feb 04 2023 01:18 am

    No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate
    >> here as easily as anyone else. If they wanted to still return to
    >> their own country at times then they would probably be restricted
    >> to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I go
    >the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.

    Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russ or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to their Commie ways.. B)

    I had heard that Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap
    >during the seasons they are not there because they cannot stay.
    >So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay.

    In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
    stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
    the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and, although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free' countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
    they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
    of all their $Billions out of their home country..


    Due to military mobilisation, I bet there's travel restrictions from Russia. They're alread telling those who took off for Europe and countries such as Georgia they will be jail or executed if they return to Russia. If they get thrown in prison, the Wagner group will swoop them up and send them to the Ukraine for cannon fodder.

    Regarding buying land or condos, large construciton firms are building modern apartments like crazy in China, and there doesn't appear to be a demand for
    the high end dwellings. In Tblisi, Georgia the Chinese built large
    apartments surrounded by strip malls and economic districts, and the building are vacant or mostly empty.

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to COUGAR428 on Mon Feb 6 00:54:00 2023
    Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
    > There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
    > that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their
    > competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs.

    Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
    >about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
    >you were the one in charge?

    In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
    >sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
    >never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

    Have you ever tried to tell your boss that he's doing something wrong?
    And the problem with incompetent bosses is they are paranoid about losing
    their jobs so they will either ignore you, tell you to shut up, or try to
    get rid of you in case higher-ups realize there is someone smarter than
    them available to do the job.

    I say all that with a smile. I didn't intend for it to sound confrontatonal with you since I agree with your basic idea. A few times I've run into
    this sort of thing and usually ended up deciding to forget it, just do the
    job and let the boss sink or swim on how he runs things.

    A Good boss is another story. One place I worked we got a sudden, panic
    order come in from a very important customer and my boss came to me in
    the plant and told me what the order was for and then paused and said,
    'I have no idea how anyone could possibly do this in the time we have
    to do it..'

    I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that rather
    than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it, basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

    After that he always just left things to me where a worse boss would have
    just said, 'Well obviously you can do a lot more work in a day that we thought', and would try to get you to half kill yourself all the time.

    I later ended up running that department and, although other managers in
    the company hated it, I'd let my people goof around when things were quiet because then they would work at 120% when it was required. If you push
    people to work hard all the time, they just set a slower constant pace.

    In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32. If you
    are your own boss you only have to answer to the customers and, in most
    of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked for so
    that I would be readily available for them when they needed me again.
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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DUMAS WALKER on Mon Feb 6 00:58:00 2023
    Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Rus
    >> or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing s
    >> because they don't like the system they are fleeing from

    Cuba is another country I didn't think you were able to permanently leave
    >without fleeing. I know that used to be true. If they are able to leave
    >and are moving to Canada (and for the reasons we suspect), that is great!

    Yes, I wasn't suggesting that their government would happily permit emigration.. otherwise they'd have no poor people left to exploit.. B)

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  • From Cougar428@VERT to ROB MCCART on Tue Feb 7 23:20:00 2023
    Quoting Rob Mccart to Cougar428 <=-

    Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
    about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
    you were the one in charge?

    In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
    sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
    never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

    Have you ever tried to tell your boss that he's doing something wrong?
    And the problem with incompetent bosses is they are paranoid about
    losing their jobs so they will either ignore you, tell you to shut up,
    or try to get rid of you in case higher-ups realize there is someone smarter than them available to do the job.

    Actually I have. The last 3 places I worked had a management open
    door policy. The first job I ended up leaving when the
    suggestions I made had the effect you noted above. The second
    actually listened to me, but I moved on and found a better job.

    The last place was enthusiastic about doing things better, so they
    would evaluate and try suggestions. Some worked, some didn't. I
    made some suggestions that improved my ability to help workers (IT
    Support), but I have retired after working for 50+ years.

    I say all that with a smile. I didn't intend for it to sound confrontatonal with you since I agree with your basic idea.

    You don't sound confrontational, but thanks for letting me know.
    Hey if we can't discuss things rationally, how are we ever going to
    argue about things? B^)

    I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that
    rather than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it, basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

    Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
    as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.
    I've gotten bitten by that dog a number of times. The boss sounds
    like he trusted his people.

    In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32. If
    you are your own boss you only have to answer to the customers and, in most of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked for so that I would be readily available for them when they needed me again.

    Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to
    be. Thanks for the reply!

    Cougar

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  • From Rob Mccart@VERT/CAPCITY2 to COUGAR428 on Fri Feb 10 00:52:00 2023
    I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that
    > rather than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it,
    > basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

    Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
    >as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.

    Yes, I think he was so amazed he decided not to question how I did it.
    I definitely wouldn't want to do that too often, nor could a lot of people
    if I'm being honest. The speed up involved things like ignoring the
    company policy of not lifting more than 70 lbs when dumping materials
    into a large mixer we used. That day I was working with up to 175 lbs.

    I've gotten bitten by that dog a number of times. The boss sounds
    >like he trusted his people.

    He was good at letting you do what you were good at and not directly supervising unless there was a problem. Six months after I started working there he put me in charge of the quality testing lab, which required three years of training to do, but I'd started doing the work when he was out
    on sales calls and showing him the results when he got back and he realized that I was quite able to do it, admitted I was even fussier on quality than
    he was, so I got moved up a notch earlier than expected. Besides, he
    preferred the 3 martini sales calls to running the plant so he was happy
    to pass as much on to me as I could manage.. B)

    In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32.

    Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to
    >be.

    That was sort of accidental. I took a winter off between that job and
    the offer of a similar job at a major competitor at 50% more money where
    the job wasn't quite ready yet. They offered to take me on and 'find
    something for me to do' until the coming job opened up but I decided I
    was going to move anyways so, over a 2 month period, I sold two houses
    that I owned in the city and moved into my cottage until the fall and
    then took off for Florida for the winter. While I was there I got into investing the money from the house sales and found I was making more
    money than needed to pay the basic bills, so I decided to take some
    more time off.. and sort of never went back, other than part time jobs
    I set up, mostly to earn enough extra to keep me in fairly recent
    computers and other non-essential things, having the investment income
    paying the normal bills.

    BTW.. That was 36 years ago.. Now I also have a full pension added on
    so things are a Lot easier.. B)

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  • From calcmandan@VERT/BTTMLSS to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 03:58:00 2023
    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
    anything or have screws left over!

    I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago had the
    same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall box. Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...

    Feels good doesn't it.

    Daniel Traechin

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to calcmandan on Sun Feb 26 07:56:00 2023
    calcmandan wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
    anything or have screws left over!

    I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago had
    the same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall box. Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...

    Feels good doesn't it.

    It feels good not tossing out old hardware; old hardware, with a little
    bit of maintenance here and there seems to last longer.




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