Our family car cost $37K. Have that for 20 years, max, that is nearly $2000 a year amortised. Add to that $1000 per year for insurance, $800 per year registration. Add parking fees, servicing, approx $500 - $1000 a year, depending if there are repairs, damange to fix. Petrol, I estimate $30 a week. 52 weeks a year that is about $1500.
That is, what, $5,800 a year, conservatively speaking. That is just one car, we have another. That car is cheaper, but we still at several thousand dollars sunk cost a year, not too far inside $10,000 per annum.
Excluded from this is our tax dollars going to fund roads and car infrastructure.
Are we getting our moneys worth? How long do I spend at work to earn that money? The car saves me time here and there, but I have to spend a LOT of time to earn the money to pay for it.
Based on this, it doesn't seem that great after all.
Our family car cost $37K. Have that for 20 years, max, that is nearly $2000 a year amortised. Add to that $1000 per year for insurance, $800 per year registration. Add parking fees, servicing, approx $500 - $1000 a year, depending if there are repairs, damange to fix. Petrol, I estimate $30 a week. 52 weeks a year that is about $1500.
That is, what, $5,800 a year, conservatively speaking. That is just one car, we have another. That car is cheaper, but we still at several thousand dollars sunk cost a year, not too far inside $10,000 per annum.
Excluded from this is our tax dollars going to fund roads and car infrastructure.
Are we getting our moneys worth? How long do I spend at work to earn that money? The car saves me time here and there, but I have to spend a LOT of time to earn the money to pay for it.
Based on this, it doesn't seem that great after all.
The alternative would be public transportation or taxi/uber/lyft/etc. If those are available to you and you can take them to work, etc., you'll probably spend more time using those than you would driving your own car. And if you wanted to go on a road trip somewhere, you'd probably want to rent a car. You'd have to weigh all that vs. owning a car.
Also, there are a lot of cars that cost less than $37K, even new. You can also find a used car for a fairly good price sometimes.
Second hand cars are barely cheaper now. We could have gotten a cheaper car back then, but the decision wasn't solely mine.
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
own car. And if you wanted to go on a road trip somewhere, you'd
probably want to rent a car. You'd have to weigh all that vs. owning a car.
I went to school in San Francisco, and I owned a car.
...
Other friends of mine took the bus, as San Francisco has a robust
transit system. They'd rent cars when they needed to, and while
seeming extravagent at the time, when I thought about it, it ended
up costing them less in the end.
Boraxman wrote to Nightfox <=-
Second hand cars are barely cheaper now. We could have gotten a
cheaper car back then, but the decision wasn't solely mine.
The good alternative does not exist yet. I don't understand how the Western world has totally lost any sense of creativity and imagination.
Its as if people are unable to see any potential future which is not exactly like how things are now.
We need a new approach to urban design. Lyft/Uber are not the
solution. The solution is better placement of services, of buildings, better planning of trannsportation and urban design which isn't based
upon simply laying out a road network and putting houses in the spaces between roads. We need something more radical that ride sharing apps
and Elon Musks lame visions.
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
The market is weird right now due to the covid situation. Hopefully, manufacturing will pick back up and prices will go back more to normal (hopefully...).
The market is weird right now due to the covid situation.
Hopefully, manufacturing will pick back up and prices will go back
more to normal (hopefully...).
One thing we've learned - prices never go back.
Second hand cars are barely cheaper now. We could have gotten a cheaper car back then, but the decision wasn't solely mine.
Yeah, but that's artificial market influence. I'm sure they'll contrive a new crisis to keep prices high, though.
The good alternative does not exist yet. I don't understand how the Western world has totally lost any sense of creativity and imagination.
Its as if people are unable to see any potential future which is not exactly like how things are now.
We need a new approach to urban design. Lyft/Uber are not the solution. The solution is better placement of services, of buildings, better planning of trannsportation and urban design which isn't based upon simply laying out a road network and putting houses in the spaces between roads. We need something more radical that ride sharing apps and Elon Musks lame visions.
There's a podcast called the Kunstlercast, by James Howard Kunstler. He's a peak oil expert and fiction author who's written books about life after oil.
He interviews urban planners and scientists with interesting ideas for urban renewal, with some interesting discussions about the renewal activities in Detroit and other Rust Belt cities.
Definitely worth a listen. His book, "World Made by Hand" is an interesting view of a post-oil, post-electricity, post-internet, post-order America.
and that's not how urban design works everywhere.
Well, they're not working here.
Re: Re: Car worth
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Sep 09 2022 07:39 am
Second hand cars are barely cheaper now. We could have gotten a cheaper car back then, but the decision wasn't solely mine.
Yeah, but that's artificial market influence. I'm sure they'll contrive a new crisis to keep prices high, though.
It will take a while for there to be enough second hand cars to drive prices
One thing that will keep prices high may be new regulations designed to phas
The good alternative does not exist yet. I don't understand how the Western world has totally lost any sense of creativity and imaginati
Its as if people are unable to see any potential future which is no exactly like how things are now.
We need a new approach to urban design. Lyft/Uber are not the solution. The solution is better placement of services, of building better planning of trannsportation and urban design which isn't base upon simply laying out a road network and putting houses in the spac between roads. We need something more radical that ride sharing app and Elon Musks lame visions.
There's a podcast called the Kunstlercast, by James Howard Kunstler. He's peak oil expert and fiction author who's written books about life after o
He interviews urban planners and scientists with interesting ideas for ur renewal, with some interesting discussions about the renewal activities i Detroit and other Rust Belt cities.
Definitely worth a listen. His book, "World Made by Hand" is an interesti view of a post-oil, post-electricity, post-internet, post-order America.
I've seen a video where he is talking on urban design. I do know of his pod
We need to be more imaginative, reignite that inventive spark. We aren't th
Re: Car worth
By: Boraxman to MRO on Sat Sep 10 2022 12:07 am
and that's not how urban design works everywhere.
Well, they're not working here.
This is the problem I was mentioning earlier: that people from populated are have problems with transports and logistics and project them to places with transport and logistics issues.
A lot of cities around here had no trouble with transport and logistics unti somebody decided they had to fix transport and logistics, cut streets to traffic, and ended up generating a problem.
Obviously, if you city has problems with transport it would be great to fix them, but that does not mean civilitation at large has to redesign their who transport system because New York and San Francisco suck.
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-
A few year's back I was reading an article in an off road
magazin, and the wri. ter was in search of new vehicle, but
wanted to go simple and cheap. The requirement was something he
could drive to work and back, and do occasional towing and
hauling. He did the math, and it was cheaper to restore a square
body Chevy truck from the 70's and 80's by nearly half of a new
pickup. other than a Duramax recovered from a totaled truck, the
rest was a conservative build. He sourced a truck from out West
that had little rust, and performed a frame up restoration. Any
body panels he couldn't source from a scrap yard he could get
from aftermarket restoration companies. The suspension was worn,
and had to be all replaced. Kits are made to adapt newer motors
to older vehicles, dropping in the diesel and transmission wasn't
as problematic as expected.
I have wondered if there is a car model equivalent to the square
body Chevy's - a model that at one time a popular seller or body/
frame that would be easy to find parts for. Find one that has
quite a bit of life int he engine, or fi nd a candidate to
rebuild. I'm guessing there's 20+ year old Toyota or Honda that
could be rebuilt from the frame up, yet cost less than a new car
yet be as reliable
Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-
A few year's back I was reading an article in an off road
magazin, and the wri. ter was in search of new vehicle, but
wanted to go simple and cheap. The requirement was something he
could drive to work and back, and do occasional towing and
hauling. He did the math, and it was cheaper to restore a square
body Chevy truck from the 70's and 80's by nearly half of a new
pickup. other than a Duramax recovered from a totaled truck, the
rest was a conservative build. He sourced a truck from out West
that had little rust, and performed a frame up restoration. Any
body panels he couldn't source from a scrap yard he could get
from aftermarket restoration companies. The suspension was worn,
and had to be all replaced. Kits are made to adapt newer motors
to older vehicles, dropping in the diesel and transmission wasn't
as problematic as expected.
I have wondered if there is a car model equivalent to the square
body Chevy's - a model that at one time a popular seller or body/
frame that would be easy to find parts for. Find one that has
quite a bit of life int he engine, or fi nd a candidate to
rebuild. I'm guessing there's 20+ year old Toyota or Honda that
could be rebuilt from the frame up, yet cost less than a new car
yet be as reliable
All of the above assumes a person has the skills to do much of that work themselves. Most people (I would estimate 99%+) do NOT have such
skills.
Also you have not factored in the time spent to do such work. My time
is worth *FAR* more than the "savings" from doing such a job. For
nearly everyone, buying a new (or used) car that doesn't need any work
done to it is clearly the better choice.
... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-
I have wondered if there is a car model equivalent to the square
body Chevy's - a model that at one time a popular seller or body/
frame that would be easy to find parts for. Find one that has
quite a bit of life int he engine, or fi nd a candidate to
rebuild. I'm guessing there's 20+ year old Toyota or Honda that
could be rebuilt from the frame up, yet cost less than a new car
yet be as reliable
All of the above assumes a person has the skills to do much of that work themselves. Most people (I would estimate 99%+) do NOT have such
skills.
Also you have not factored in the time spent to do such work. My time
is worth *FAR* more than the "savings" from doing such a job. For
nearly everyone, buying a new (or used) car that doesn't need any work
done to it is clearly the better choice.
If you had a shop do it, it will still cost less than an new
truck. A new Chevy 2500 4x4 with a Duramax is $60k usd. A frame
up rebuild is less than $40 k usd. If you plan to make a hotrod,
that's when the price goes crazy.
I have wondered if there is a car model equivalent to the square body Chevy's - a model that at one time a popular seller or body/ frame that would be easy to find parts for. Find one that has quite a bit of life int he engine, or fi nd a candidate to rebuild. I'm guessing there's
20+ year old Toyota or Honda that could be rebuilt from the frame up,
yet cost less than a new car yet be as reliable
All of the above assumes a person has the skills to do much of that work themselves. Most people (I would estimate 99%+) do NOT have such
skills.
I'll take your word for it, but you've still got a truck with parts of
it that are 20-30 years old. The new one comes with a factory warranty and that "new car smell". LOL! I'll pay the extra.
Well, they're not working here.
This is the problem I was mentioning earlier: that people from populated areas have problems with transports and logistics and project them to places with no transport and logistics issues.
A lot of cities around here had no trouble with transport and logistics until somebody decided they had to fix transport and logistics, cut streets to traffic, and ended up generating a problem.
Obviously, if you city has problems with transport it would be great to fix them, but that does not mean civilitation at large has to redesign their whole transport system because New York and San Francisco suck.
--
A few year's back I was reading an article in an off road magazin, and the wri. ter was in search of new vehicle, but wanted to go simple and cheap. The requirement was something he could drive to work and back, and do occasional towing and hauling. He did the math, and it was cheaper to restore a square body Chevy truck from the 70's and 80's by nearly half of a new pickup.
other than a Duramax recovered from a totaled truck, the rest was a conservative build. He sourced a truck from out West that had little rust, and performed a frame up restoration. Any body panels he couldn't source from a scrap yard he could get from aftermarket restoration companies.
The suspension was worn, and had to be all replaced. Kits are made to adapt newer motors to older vehicles, dropping in the diesel and transmission wasn't as problematic as expected.
I have wondered if there is a car model equivalent to the square body Chevy's
- a model that at one time a popular seller or body/ frame that would be easy to find parts for. Find one that has quite a bit of life int he engine, or fi nd a candidate to rebuild. I'm guessing there's 20+ year old Toyota or Honda that could be rebuilt from the frame up, yet cost less than a new car yet be
as reliable
esc wrote to Gamgee <=-
All of the above assumes a person has the skills to do much of that work themselves. Most people (I would estimate 99%+) do NOT have such
skills.
Not to mention tools! Decent tools aren't cheap.
esc wrote to Gamgee <=-
I'll take your word for it, but you've still got a truck with parts of
it that are 20-30 years old. The new one comes with a factory warranty and that "new car smell". LOL! I'll pay the extra.
Hehe, conversely, my cars from the 60s have that "gas station +
rich exhaust" smell...which I love.
Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-
I have wondered if there is a car model equivalent to the square body Chevy's - a model that at one time a popular seller or body/ frame that would be easy to find parts for. Find one that has
quite a bit of life int he engine, or fi nd a candidate to
rebuild. I'm guessing there's 20+ year old Toyota or Honda that could be rebuilt from the frame up, yet cost less than a new car
yet be as reliable
All of the above assumes a person has the skills to do much of that work themselves. Most people (I would estimate 99%+) do NOT have such
skills.
Also you have not factored in the time spent to do such work. My time
is worth *FAR* more than the "savings" from doing such a job. For
nearly everyone, buying a new (or used) car that doesn't need any work done to it is clearly the better choice.
If you had a shop do it, it will still cost less than an new
truck. A new Chevy 2500 4x4 with a Duramax is $60k usd. A frame
up rebuild is less than $40 k usd. If you plan to make a hotrod, that's when the price goes crazy.
I'll take your word for it, but you've still got a truck with parts of
it that are 20-30 years old. The new one comes with a factory warranty
and that "new car smell". LOL! I'll pay the extra.
... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
I have wondered if there is a car model equivalent to the square body Chevy's - a model that at one time a popular seller or body/ frame that would be easy to find parts for. Find one that has quite a bit of life int he engine, or fi nd a candidate to rebuild. I'm guessing there's 20+ year old Toyota or Honda that could be rebuilt from the frame up, yet cost less than a new car yet be as reliable
If I'm thinking of the same trucks you're talking about here, good luck find
As far as a car equivalent, I actually restored a '69 Beetle not long ago. I
cooled. No power steering, no power brakes, simple light car. It worked ver
All of the above assumes a person has the skills to do much of that wor themselves. Most people (I would estimate 99%+) do NOT have such skills.
Not to mention tools! Decent tools aren't cheap.
Chevy made the square body design up to 1986, so we're not necessarily talking about a 50 year old pickups. A semi clean donor vehicle could
run $5000 to $12000. The end result is a reliable daily driver, not a
car show restoration. That would push the budget way over because you will be searching for period specific parts down to the style of running light lenses and door handle hardware. Labor is where the money goes if someone else is doing it for you.
Speaking of Beetles, the EV crowd liked them because the engine was held on by 4 bolts, and a collar adapter could be used to bolt an electric motor direc tly the existing transmission. The sad thing about the
motor direc tly the existing transmission. The sad thing about the Beetles I've lloked at is they looked good on the surface but when I'd look at everything that needed to be patched or replaced, I would be spending quite a bit just to make it reliable. As said before, motors drop in an out easily. The entire b ottom of the car is one big piece, and the body and interior have to be removed to get to it. Each year is slightly different, and fenders and body panels are not all compatible from one year to the next. The bolt holes are even re-arranged. In Michigan it was hard to find a car that wasn't rotted out.
Re: Re: Car worth
By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Sep 12 2022 07:51 pm
A few year's back I was reading an article in an off road magazin, and th wri. ter was in search of new vehicle, but wanted to go simple and cheap. The requirement was something he could drive to work and back, and do occasional towing and hauling. He did the math, and it was cheaper to restore a square body Chevy truck from the 70's and 80's by nearly half o new pickup.
other than a Duramax recovered from a totaled truck, the rest was a conservative build. He sourced a truck from out West that had little rus and performed a frame up restoration. Any body panels he couldn't source from a scrap yard he could get from aftermarket restoration companies. The suspension was worn, and had to be all replaced. Kits are made to ad newer motors to older vehicles, dropping in the diesel and transmission wasn't as problematic as expected.
I have wondered if there is a car model equivalent to the square body Chevy's
- a model that at one time a popular seller or body/ frame that would be easy to find parts for. Find one that has quite a bit of life int he engine, or fi nd a candidate to rebuild. I'm guessing there's 20+ year Toyota or Honda that could be rebuilt from the frame up, yet cost less th a new car yet be
as reliable
Something like the "framework" laptop? Or the original PC hardware? Someth
There wouldn't be much commercial interest in making cars which people can r
This is something that someone left-of-centre like Elon Musk might do. A ca
On 14 Sep 2022, MRO said the following...
okay now i remember what i had.
plymouth horizon aka dodge omni https://i.imgur.com/r0PnKwC.png
nice. they took the vw rabbit and messed up the suspension and all that bad
cars like the dodge shadow and others on the same chassis had the same probl
as fond as i am of the looks of some of those old cars, i'm not going back a
okay now i remember what i had.
plymouth horizon aka dodge omni https://i.imgur.com/r0PnKwC.png
Holy crap my aunt used to have that car. Column shifter, right? One time we the car.
Carrol Shelby and Lee Iacocca were good friends since the 1960's. When Shelby was asked to make an custom shop car at his shop, he took an Omni and made what he called the Shelby GLHs. Some say the little s was for Shelby, but Shelby said the name is short for Goes Like Hell S'more. Shelby put a larger turbo and intercooler than what was offered on the Dodge build Shelby Editions, and beefed up suspension for better
handling. It also had cool wheels and a ground effect kit. In an interview his grand kids said that was his favorite fun car. The GHLs could out race a 66 Ford Shelby GT350 at a 1/4 mile.
Speaking of Beetles, the EV crowd liked them because the engine was held on by 4 bolts, and a collar adapter could be used to bolt an electric motor dir tly the existing transmission. The sad thing about the Beetles I've lloked at is they looked good on the surface but when I'd look at everything that needed to be patched or replaced, I would be spending quite a bit just to make it reliable. As said before, motors drop in an out easily. The entire ottom of the car is one big piece, and the body and interior have to be removed to get to it. Each year is slightly different, and fenders and body panels are not all compatible from one year to the next. The bolt holes are even re-arranged. In Michigan it was hard to find a car that wasn't rotted out.
Re: Re: Car worth
By: Moondog to esc on Wed Sep 14 2022 09:45 am
Speaking of Beetles, the EV crowd liked them because the engine was held by 4 bolts, and a collar adapter could be used to bolt an electric motor tly the existing transmission. The sad thing about the Beetles I've llok at is they looked good on the surface but when I'd look at everything tha needed to be patched or replaced, I would be spending quite a bit just to make it reliable. As said before, motors drop in an out easily. The ent ottom of the car is one big piece, and the body and interior have to be removed to get to it. Each year is slightly different, and fenders and b panels are not all compatible from one year to the next. The bolt holes even re-arranged. In Michigan it was hard to find a car that wasn't rott out.
While in my teens, living in a town north of Los Angeles, a father of kid I knew did in fact both a bus generator to the transmission of a 1963 VW and filled the back seat with lead-acid batteries. I'm confident it would violat couple of dozen safety regulations to do that today. Anyway, it was not necessary to shift gears. The bus generator, acting as a motor, could produc all the torque needed to acheive speed up to 80 kph with no need to shift. C did not go very far on a charge but I have to wonder if my friends dad eventually worked a some famous electric car manufacutring company.
~Michael S
~Mike S~
Other than the Beetle, the Chevy S-10 was another DIY EV host. The brake pump, lights, and steering pump ran off their own 12v battery however they w ld stuff up to 20 car bateries in the engine compartment and under the bed a ng the frame. With modern lithium cells, they could shrink the battery footprint and increase the range. Back in the early 2000's the range was around 40-60 miles on acid cells. As stated witht he Beetle, you could leav it in one gear since a motor speed controller (pulsewidth modulator) would handle the acceleration range. The upper gears act as an overdive.
This is something that someone left-of-centre like Elon Musk might
do. A car you just piece together, can upgrade or fix easily.
If I'm thinking of the same trucks you're talking about here, good luck finding one that's affordable. A 72 C10 costs an arm and a leg these days :/
Re: Re: Car worth
By: esc to Moondog on Tue Sep 13 2022 11:35 pm
If I'm thinking of the same trucks you're talking about here, good luck finding one that's affordable. A 72 C10 costs an arm and a leg these days
Those Chevy Squarebody's are getting really popular. I bought a 74 K10 circa 2009 for around $2000. Its now appraised at around $28k. I did do a lot of w to it though -- new engine, rebuilt transmission, rebuilt tcase, new paint j etc. The truck isnt a trailer queen either. It IS my daily driver. In fact, drove it from Denver, CO to Vail, CO via Eisenhower Tunnel over the weekend with no issues.
Here's a video of my truck:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7_7xzyRMN0
The Dawn of Demise BBS (tdod.org)
Moondog wrote to Minex <=-
As mentioned, I would like to see the analog of a square body Chevy in
the form of a car. I figure there's a Honda or Toyota model that's
known to run forever, or would be a great candidate to refurbish into a very reliable daily driver.
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