• Hercules - Mainframes Emulator

    From Miken@80:505/2 to All on Sun Apr 23 10:58:00 2017
    Hello All,

    I know Retropie is the best. But I'd like to invest some time now into exploration of Hercules. It's an open-source software implementation of the mainframe System/370 and ESA/390 architectures. Hercules runs under Linux, Windows, Solaris, FreeBSD and Mac OS X.

    I think I already did install the whole thing some time ago. And there is
    still plenty of opportunity to explore yet.

    The main thing for me is to learn new approach to computer architecture.

    Regards

    Miken

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  • From Richard Menedetter@80:774/18 to Miken on Mon Apr 24 17:18:00 2017
    Hi Miken!

    23 Apr 2017 10:58, from Miken -> All:

    But I'd like to invest some time now into exploration of Hercules.
    The main thing for me is to learn new approach to computer
    architecture.

    Never heard of Hercules.
    Should take a look when I have some time.

    Maybe something else that could interest you:
    PiDP8 - a PDP8 emulator on a raspberry Pi: http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8

    KIM Uno - Kim1 emulator http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/kim-uno-summary-c1uuh

    CU, Ricsi

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  • From Miken@80:505/2 to Richard Menedetter on Mon Apr 24 19:32:00 2017
    Hello Richard,

    PiDP8 - a PDP8 emulator on a raspberry Pi:
    KIM Uno - Kim1 emulator

    I just opened the web-page. And to be honest I doubt I've mental capacity to caointain such a machines.

    However it reminds me ... aren't something like these the famous machines
    that brought Mr. Gates & company from the dark scene to the bright of Wall
    St.?

    I saw something like this in a movie .. it was called The Pirates of Sillicon Valley... and it's voyage started from garage in the offices of IBM while presenting fancy blinking PDP-80 or something similar to business mans. Is
    this the thing?

    Regards

    Miken

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  • From Richard Menedetter@80:774/18 to Miken on Mon Apr 24 23:24:00 2017
    Hi Miken!

    24 Apr 2017 19:32, from Miken -> Richard Menedetter:

    PiDP8 - a PDP8 emulator on a raspberry Pi:
    KIM Uno - Kim1 emulator
    I just opened the web-page. And to be honest I doubt I've mental
    capacity to caointain such a machines.

    I thought you were the guy who suggested the mainframe area?

    If you cannot comprehend the above information (which is extremely well prepared), what exactly do you want to do in the mainframe area?

    However it reminds me ... aren't something like these the famous
    machines that brought Mr. Gates & company from the dark scene to the bright of Wall St.?

    No.
    The DEC PDP was too expensive for playing around for home consumers.
    The KIM1 basically a demo board from MOS to showcase their 6502 CPU received a backport of M$ basic later.

    Allen and Gates started on the MITS Altair if I remember correctly.

    Something like this:
    http://altairclone.com/

    CU, Ricsi

    PS: Tagline randomly selected by Golded, but fits extremely well ;)
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  • From Miken@80:505/2 to Richard Menedetter on Mon Apr 24 22:40:00 2017
    Hello Richard,

    I thought you were the guy who suggested the mainframe area?

    If you cannot comprehend the above information (which is extremely well prepared), what exactly do you want to do in the mainframe area?

    please don't get me wrong. The reason for my "rejectal" is just simple. When the machine doesn't have a keyboard (and I hope I'm not wrong) it's just out
    of my generation. I grew up on ZX, school years on PC until now. All this machines have one thing in common. It has a keyboard and a command line where to type in.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong... but PDP is programmed by switches. That
    means there is not any possibility to type in any semantically more complex sentences. It's not that I wouldn't be able to comprehend in a bunch of time
    on how to handle it. But it's too far away from my understanding of the
    World. And I'm sorry for it. My nature is more language orientated than mathematical. I'm trying to "talk" to machines. And it's not really a natural thing to talk in ASM. Whatever I hope I didn't insult You or so.

    That's why I wanted to explore some of the Mainframes. I don't think the
    really real Room computers that used punch cards. I'm interesting in machines that are stable and runs ... and provides at least in some form a command
    line.

    No.
    The DEC PDP was too expensive for playing around for home consumers.
    The KIM1 basically a demo board from MOS to showcase their 6502 CPU received a backport of M$ basic later.

    I think You know the story much better than I do. The story-line I know is
    blur and Holywood version. Again sorry for any uncertainty that my version I know has. Although I should know it was Altair.

    Best regards

    Miken

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A31 (Linux)
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  • From tenser@80:774/22 to Miken on Mon Apr 24 21:53:00 2017
    On 04/24/17, Miken said the following...

    Please correct me if I'm wrong... but PDP is programmed by switches. That means there is not any possibility to type in any semantically more complex sentences. It's not that I wouldn't be able to comprehend in a bunch of time on how to handle it. But it's too far away from my understanding of the World. And I'm sorry for it. My nature is more language orientated than mathematical. I'm trying to "talk" to machines. And it's not really a natural thing to talk in ASM. Whatever I hope I didn't insult You or so.

    Wow, there's a lot of misinformation floating around here.

    PDP-series machines were produced by Digital Equipment Corporation (and its successors).

    The PDP line of processors was actually a family of machines. The PDP-6 and PDP-10 were mainframe-class machines; the -11 was a minicomputer, and the -8 and -7 were often used in industrial control applications. Most of the PDP family machines were word-oriented; the -11 was byte-oriented (that is, bytes could be individually addressed by the CPU, as opposed to whole words of
    memory with special instructions to manipulate bytes inside of the word). The PDP-1 was the first in the line and was arguably NOT mainframe-class. The -6 and -10 used a 36-bit word (chosen to be competitive against mechanical calculators of the era, which had 9 significant digits: 36-bits are
    sufficient to store 9 4-bit BCD digits). The -11 had a 16-bit word; the -7
    had an 18-bit word and the -8 had a 12-bit word.

    The PDP-7 is perhaps most notable for being the machine that Ken Thompson originally wrote Unix on (after Bell Labs pulled out of the Multics project that targeted the 36-bit GE-645 machine - another word-oriented
    mainframe-class machine).

    The most famous of the PDP series of computers were undoubtedly the -10, on which much of the early ARPANet and Internet work was done, and the -11, on which much of the early Unix work was done. Ken and Dennis Ritchie moved Unix to the PDP-11 fairly quickly. While some of the very early PDP machines did have front-panel switches, most often one interacted with them via terminals connected to serial ports. The VAX series of computers were introduced as a successor to the PDP-11 and used a 32-bit word and 32-bit virtual address space. They ultimately took over much of Digital's 36-bit business as well.

    Hercules is a mainframe emulator, where it is understood that "mainframe"
    means "IBM mainframe". It implements the z/Architecture instruction set and emulators for many mainframe peripherals. z/Architecture is the successor to the S/390 instruction set, which succeeded the S/370, which succeeded the
    S/360 which succeeded a number of early IBM machines such as the 7094, which was a 36-bit word-oriented machine. System/360, introduced in the 1960s, was byte-oriented with 32-bit registers and, I think, a 20- or 24- bit address space (I could be wrong). 370 was a 32-bit machine; z/Arch is a full 64-bit machine. When most people refer to "mainframes" they mean IBM and compatible mainframes using one of these instruction sets; most of IBM's traditional competitors in the space are gone. The only remaining competing architecture seems to be Unisys 1100-series machines, which are themselves successors of
    CDC machines. IBM also had a number of mid-range system options, including System/36 et al and AS/400, but these are not instruction-set compatible with their mainframe systems. Note that most mainframes also support terminal access; one can even run Unix on some of them. VM/370 -> VM/CMS -> VM/ESA -> z/VM is probably the most familiar environment for mainframe access for most modern users; the other popular options were the timesharing option for the batch MVS operating system (MVS/TSO succeeding, if I recall, TSS/360). Modern mainframes often run Linux under z/VM.

    Anyway, the point is that DEC, IBM, Unisys/CDC and GE/Honeywell/Bull
    mainframes are all distinct systems and most are accessed interactively.

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  • From Miken@80:505/2 to tenser on Tue Apr 25 17:19:00 2017
    Anyway, the point is that DEC, IBM, Unisys/CDC and GE/Honeywell/Bull mainframes are all distinct systems and most are accessed interactively.

    Thank You very much for this overview. I totally messed up with the terms and systems. I think that's just because here in Eastern Europe there was
    de-facto no access to this kind of machines prior to cca 1989. And afterwards we started with PC's. I think the only thing that was accessible here behind the so called Iron Curtain were several IBM Mainframes.

    I'm very glad I'm now able to distinguish between PDP and Altair. And I'm
    very sorry for my Education Gap.

    Best Regards

    Miken

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A31 (Linux)
    * Origin: Infolinka BBS (80:505/2)
  • From Richard Menedetter@80:774/18 to Miken on Tue Apr 25 20:08:00 2017
    Hi Miken!

    24 Apr 2017 22:40, from Miken -> Richard Menedetter:

    If you cannot comprehend the above information (which is
    extremely well prepared), what exactly do you want to do in the
    mainframe area?
    please don't get me wrong. The reason for my "rejectal" is just
    simple. When the machine doesn't have a keyboard (and I hope I'm not wrong) it's just out of my generation. I grew up on ZX, school years
    on PC until now. All this machines have one thing in common. It has a keyboard and a command line where to type in.

    I am also no PDP expert.
    But I assume that all of them had the capability to use terminals.
    But indeed Altair the KIM-1 and I assume the PDP were mostly initialized by switches.

    I grew up with a C64/C128.
    And taking a look at the KIM-1 for example is very interesting.
    You have an easy interface. xxxx yy
    where xxxx is the hex address and yy is the 8 bit value of that memory address. It comes with a serial interface and a basic monitor program.
    Actually quit intuitive.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong... but PDP is programmed by switches.

    I am also no expert.
    I assume that the switches were only used for bootstrapping.
    In contrast to the Altair or the KIM which mostly used it as the main way of input.

    And I'm sorry for it.

    No need to be sorry for anything ;)

    And it's not really a natural thing to talk in ASM.

    It is the most natural thing for the machine ;))

    Whatever I hope I didn't insult You or so.

    Absolutely not!
    By rereading what I wrote I relly hope it is not the other way around.

    That's why I wanted to explore some of the Mainframes. I don't think
    the really real Room computers that used punch cards. I'm interesting
    in machines that are stable and runs ... and provides at least in some form a command line.

    All mainframes were really stable ;)
    PDPs have a terminal connection:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hyUActgT2E

    CU, Ricsi

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  • From tenser@80:774/22 to Miken on Tue Apr 25 20:05:00 2017
    On 04/25/17, Miken said the following...

    I'm very glad I'm now able to distinguish between PDP and Altair. And I'm very sorry for my Education Gap.

    No need to be sorry! Learning is what it's all about. :-)

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